DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[Chu Gai]

Stephen Hopkins of EH gave a shout out

not too long ago here (read the comments section). First he says the actions are deplorable and later he's innocent until proven guility. I can't tell where he stands and for that matter if he even physically reviewed the products.

 

[MinusTheBear]

IMO, I found this post by the Faceless Rebel an appropriate Cavaet Emptor over at AVS.

This is the neverending saga. I really wonder how "good" a deal these sorts of fly-by-night audio components really are when you factor in the hassle and heartache. At this point buying a MFW subwoofer is just a very small step up from buying one out of the back of a white van parked in front of Best Buy.

A cavaet of a high probablity of faulty amplifiers is just not appropriate anymore when you factor in all the shenanigans that has been associated with AV123. From reading this thread, according to the individuals that tested these V3 amps, they do not perform up to spec of their previous counterpart - the V2. TADG even admitted in his post to sending out these amps to individuals without the appropriate testing and agency approvals of the CE, FCC and UL.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1250559&page=4

 

[Jed M]

From everything I have heard, white van speakers usually work, so I don't even know if that is a fair comparison. You undoubtedly used to get a better quality product from AV123 than white van, but with the new HR, ULW, UFW, and MFW amps they may be moving into that territory. Pretty boxes (for the price) but just absolute cheapness on the insides. I should check my LS-6's and make sure there aren't any bricks taped to the insides like I hear they do with white van speakers.

 

[cschang]

Jed, if you haven't done so already, you should definitely check your LS6's to make sure they are built to spec.

 

[zvardanian]

I was reading the description for the x-statik:

"The crossover network in the x-statik costs ~4x more than a unit typically found in a $800 loudspeaker. Look for polypropylene capacitors, air core inductors in all the right places, non-inductive wire wound resistors and Sonicap Gen 2 bypass capacitors. If you don't know what that all means, don't worry. In the end, the whole package is designed to get you closer to the music. "

I wonder if anyone has taken the time to see if, in fact, they are using the components listed in their description.

 

[MinusTheBear]

I was reading the description for the x-statik:

"The crossover network in the x-statik costs ~4x more than a unit typically found in a $800 loudspeaker. Look for polypropylene capacitors, air core inductors in all the right places, non-inductive wire wound resistors and Sonicap Gen 2 bypass capacitors. If you don't know what that all means, don't worry. In the end, the whole package is designed to get you closer to the music. "

I wonder if anyone has taken the time to see if, in fact, they are using the components listed in their description.

When the x-statik first came to the market I seen a picture of the crossover from one of the first deliveries and it looked well built from a parts perspective - better than most speakers at its price point. Although you can make a decent crossover out of even the cheapest of parts as long as you have a reliable supplier and well established quality control. The picture I am referring to was posted around the time when Schifter flew out of state to a owners house to fix a defective x-statik. I forget if it was this individual that needed some soldering done or another individual. They were initial run x-statiks. I believe they went out for fish tacos afterwards.

As time goes by, who knows of the inventory run changes/spec changes companies make on products especially on the internals. I'm sure AV123 is not alone in this regards in making a more cost-effective solution with still an up to spec product. The question is are their products still up to spec? You won't see other companies posting for sale their flagship center channel with a different driver than they normally use. Recently they had for sale on their website a bigfoot that had a yellow midrange driver. I still get a chuckle out of that.

 

[Chu Gai]

I wonder if switching from No-Rez to asphalt based material was also designed to get you closer to the music?

 

[MinusTheBear]

I wonder if switching from No-Rez to asphalt based material was also designed to get you closer to the music?

The LS6/9 specifications there were touted certainly did not deliver on what was promised. I assume this is what you are referring to. Their recent history has not been good in that regards and IMO don't see it improving.

I remember some physical changes on the back portion of the x-statik in recent history but can't remember exactly what they were.

 

[T2T]

I remember some physical changes on the back portion of the x-statik in recent history but can't remember exactly what they were.

I believe they stopped including the VA321 label with the serial numbers on them.

 

[Jed M]

Jed, if you haven't done so already, you should definitely check your LS6's to make sure they are built to spec.

Trust me, I have. They seem built well and nothing is loose, etc. Too bad I can't say that about the subs I have from them, especially my UFW-12's. Ultimately its my fault for trusting Mark to fix the UFW-12's but its sickening to know that I could have had a Submersive for the same price as those two POS. I think I would drive out to Colorado to punch Mark myself if I was duped into dumping another six hundred into those worthless piece of junks for dual HR kits. What a ripoff. Talk about insult to injury.

 

[cschang]

Trust me, I have. They seem built well and nothing is loose, etc. Too bad I can't say that about the subs I have from them, especially my UFW-12's. Ultimately its my fault for trusting Mark to fix the UFW-12's but its sickening to know that I could have had a Submersive for the same price as those two POS. I think I would drive out to Colorado to punch Mark myself if I was duped into dumping another six hundred into those worthless piece of junks for dual HR kits. What a ripoff. Talk about insult to injury.

Proper dampening materials, drivers, and crossover components?

 

[Jed M]

Proper dampening materials, drivers, and crossover components?

From what I can tell without completely disassembling it. I got these early, about 6 months before the forum shut down and trust me after reading all the subsequent reports of the initial LS-9's I started checking almost everything. Even my veneer is staying solid, but I wouldn't be surprised if eventually it starts cracking giving what I have heard. Maybe its my climate but I have yet to have a problem with any of my veneers from any speaker I have bought from them. I will say that I have owned a lot of stuff from AV123 and if you read only this thread you would think that they couldn't build a thing but that simply isn't true (or at least wasn't). For every POS I own from them I probably have 2 things that work as advertised and seem to be built very well.

I would say things after 2007 are much more unreliable and I wouldn't reccommend anything they sold after that date because the consistency in the quality of their product just doesn't exist. One MFW will last 3 years while another goes through 7 amps. One XLS sounds great the other sounds like a heavy blanket is covering it. One x-head hums while the other hums too. OK, maybe that wasn't a good example. And I would give a HUGE warning not to buy anything built in 2009 or later. Judging by the amps/products I have seen they have just become a cheap, corner cutting joke of their former selves.

 

[DOJ]

My LS6's veneer looks solid with no cracking . They also sound so good they are hard to part with. I was delivered a pair of the fist ones available. I know of no speaker I would be able to purchase for the same price that would compare.

What are some of the things in side they skimped on in later runs ? I would like to look inside and make sure all is there that is supose to be.

 

[Jed M]

My LS6's veneer looks solid with no cracking . They also sound so good they are hard to part with. I was delivered a pair of the fist ones available. I know of no speaker I would be able to purchase for the same price that would compare.

What are some of the things in side they skimped on in later runs ? I would like to look inside and make sure all is there that is supose to be.

Being one of the first I would say you are relatively safe. Initially I would just make sure all the ribbons and drivers are connected just by putting your ear up to each one with something playing (quietly). I would then check for loose ports. As far as later runs they switched to a different quality dampening material. Mark mentioned it on the site but it was after the initial runs. I can only imagine by now a lot of things internally have changed but I really have no idea. I originally just wanted to take a peek inside to see how difficult it would be to upgrade to the Ninja Nobles, but I saw no signs of build issues or mis-wiring. I am sure Chu or Curtis can give you a full run down of everything you should check if you are concerned, but you should be 90% safe considering when you bought them.

I do agree with you about the LS-6's. I will eventually boot everything AV123 made from my house, but I would be seriously shocked if I ever get rid of my LS-6's. They are spectacular for the 3k shipped I paid for them. I quit using a center channel and sub because they sound so good by themselves and everything else seems to pull them down. I would never, ever recommend somebody buying them from AV123 now because of the quality concerns, but by all means I would through Danny.

Good to see you Kurt.

 

[cschang]

Glad you two seem to have solid LS6's. I don't know much about them other than what I have read poor assembly and some change in materials. From my experience with two pairs of X-LS's sounding very different, I just wonder how close things are kept to spec.

If they are performing well, and you like them, that is great.

 

[DOJ]

Good to see you to Jed ! Hope things are well. I see myself also moving out all my AV123 gear only keeping the 6's . I don't spend to much time on the forums anymore.....guess it is the bad taste in my mouth from the fiasco from the AV123 ordeal .

If one positive comes out of it . It would be making some friends from the place.

I to cannot and will not recommend that place to anyone looking for gear.

 

[obie_fl]

The posts by Jed and DOJ reminds me of how good a value so many of the products from AV123 were. This is in no way a defense of MLS or the company but I see a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking from people who weren't involved in the early days and can't believe anyone would buy into the BS. The truth is they had some very good quality products and very good price points. I know people will say that is because they were ripping suppliers off but no one back then knew this. Others will say if it looks to good to be true... but they managed to ship these products for a long time and kept the quality up.

The down fall was their electronics (just about all were failures from sub amps to R-DES and the EMO Pre/Pro) and the move from Chinese (SAC to be precise) exclusive products to Columbia and other Chinese factories. I personally saw the company start to slip during the nasty EMO intro both gonk and myself along with others asked some very difficult questions over there which I'm sure made them uncomfortable.

Now for my own examples. I have owned close to thirty AV123 products. With the exception of the MFWs I believe they are all SAC products. In all that time I've had two what I would call minor issues. A crossover in one of my RS1000s came loose during shipment and one of of the MFWs had a slight hum which I corrected by rerouting the internal cabling... they sent a replacement amp that is still in the box unused.

No cracked veneers.
Six working sub amps. (2ea RS1Ks, Minis, and MFWs)
No driver issues. (I did a quick count in my head but gave up tabulating when I got to 76)
In short SAC built some incredible products. To be fair the MFW is also a very nicely designed subwoofer and if you got in the early batch even the amps appear to be OK.

In my reading of late I've been struck that the company is some how still forging forward. I don't know whether sending out replacement amps after all the issues is ludicrous or good customer service. One thing I do know is if it hadn't been for the raffles and supplier issues coming to light I'm pretty sure there would be lots of folks touting the great AV123 support now instead of watching the surreal circus that it has now become.

Again this is in no way a defense of the company but rather an explanation has to how so many drank the Kool Aide without a second thought.

 

[Chu Gai]

I understand your perspective and what I write is in no way intended to disparage your thoughts on this matter. I'd only like to bring some additional insight.

The posts by Jed and DOJ reminds me of how good a value so many of the products from AV123 were. This is in no way a defense of MLS or the company but I see a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking from people who weren't involved in the early days and can't believe anyone would buy into the BS. The truth is they had some very good quality products and very good price points. I know people will say that is because they were ripping suppliers off but no one back then knew this. Others will say if it looks to good to be true... but they managed to ship these products for a long time and kept the quality up.

It's unfortunate but understandable that suppliers that were ripped off and chose to remain silent. We've all heard about Mr. Pu being taken to the tune of 7 figures. Some of us have heard about private individuals who were taken in with personal loans to MLS including loans that were touted as investments promising great returns in the Colombian Uniaudio operation. One thing we haven't heard of is how Hong Bo Yao of HiVi (Swan speakers) also experienced financial losses. Now that was pretty much back in the beginning of the formation of AV451 and before they came out with the Rocket line of speakers. You can fund the appearance of a fairly healthy and successful operation when you have such an ongoing series of cash infusions.

IMO, the matter of high quality bears another look. While you and others may have had entirely satisfactory experiences, quality needs to be looked at in terms of the whole picture. Further, when MLS and others encourage that matters be resolved privately rather than publicly (understandable in most cases) problems never see the light of day. In fact, they may be seen isolated instances rather than more severe. So, I'd like to just touch on a few matters.

Cabinets
Even during the Rocket era, it was noted that cabinets had what may be called 'nail pops' which raised the veneer. Veneer issues were also noted such as checking, cracking, delamination, improper adhesion, and so forth. With a large cash surplus, one can afford to do the right thing and swap the speakers out. Now that cash is tighter than MLS's posterior facing incarceration, folks get offered a coupon, discount on future purchases, and if they're lucky maybe $100 credited to their card. Veneer issues became more problematic as time went on with probably the Uniaudio operation becoming infamous for producing outright junk.

Drivers
These seemed to be less problematical but there still were reports of the wrong drivers in speakers, missing and rusted screws, missing gasket material, drivers failing, drivers exhibiting deformation where they're attached to the voice coil, and so forth. Curtis has recounted the story of two sets of speakers that sounded decidedly different from each other. Longmont looked to attribute that to break-in however any number of more likely reasons such as drivers and/or crossovers and/or assembly problems were more likely candidates.

Crossovers
There was no way to tell, and most users tend to overestimate their discrimination ability, if the crossover was phucked. Examples include miswiring, the use of the wrong value and type of parts, etc. I first got clued into this when reading Richard Pierce's writings on USENET - now known as Google Groups - when around the time of the Rocket introduction he was b!tching about how the Chinese suppliers he was dealing with could not get it through their skulls that there was a specific reason for spec'ing things like non-inductive resistors, and the right sort of inductors and capacitors. That gave me pause to think that if Longmont was not careful, this would be happening to them.

Now, many have read the UltimateAV review of the Rocket speakers and found that the measurements indicated internal problems. I have since spoken to a couple of folks who've done reviews and measurements of speakers from Longmont and they also found that in order to review the speaker, they'd have to rework the crossovers themselves. One in particular was so flummoxed by his experience that he'll likely never review another speaker from them. This is one of the reasons why the crossover upgrades were so popular in most cases with some users saying they totally transformed their speakers. You were buying crossovers that were competently assembled using the correct parts with specifications that didn't tend toward the bottom of acceptability. Some of course noted little difference when upgrading suggesting their existing crossovers were acceptable.

The down fall was their electronics (just about all were failures from sub amps to R-DES and the EMO Pre/Pro) and the move from Chinese (SAC to be precise) exclusive products to Columbia and other Chinese factories. I personally saw the company start to slip during the nasty EMO intro both gonk and myself along with others asked some very difficult questions over there which I'm sure made them uncomfortable.

No arguments from me that electronics problems, especially with their subs, was instrumental. They had to shut the forums down, then the raffle thing came to light, and the only supplier he had left to screw, sh!tty as he was, was Santiago from Uniaudio and in the end he got screwed too. Hardly anybody that's reputable will do business with MLS directly. No one will extend him any more terms either. People are looking to collect and collect they will.

Now for my own examples. I have owned close to thirty AV123 products. With the exception of the MFWs I believe they are all SAC products. In all that time I've had two what I would call minor issues. A crossover in one of my RS1000s came loose during shipment and one of of the MFWs had a slight hum which I corrected by rerouting the internal cabling... they sent a replacement amp that is still in the box unused.

No cracked veneers.
Six working sub amps. (2ea RS1Ks, Minis, and MFWs)
No driver issues. (I did a quick count in my head but gave up tabulating when I got to 76)
In short SAC built some incredible products. To be fair the MFW is also a very nicely designed subwoofer and if you got in the early batch even the amps appear to be OK.

Unfortunately, the many problems with AV451 has greatly diminished the value of your products and you'll have to rely upon replacements being somewhere in deep storage should you have problems. But hey, I recognize that your particular situation was positive. On the whole though, not so good.

In my reading of late I've been struck that the company is some how still forging forward. I don't know whether sending out replacement amps after all the issues is ludicrous or good customer service. One thing I do know is if it hadn't been for the raffles and supplier issues coming to light I'm pretty sure there would be lots of folks touting the great AV123 support now instead of watching the surreal circus that it has now become.

Again this is in no way a defense of the company but rather an explanation has to how so many drank the Kool Aide without a second thought.

Well, I assume they still have some cash on hand. They've also been able to generate some additional cash by defaulting on both their primary and secondary mortgages which is a dangerous game to play hoping you can use that cash to make more cash and then pay off your arrears. He's also been selling stuff off on craigslist and possibly privately. I would not want to be in his shoes though.

 

[Chu Gai]

The countdown begins!

3​

 

[Stereodude]

The countdown begins!

3​

Until what???