DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[Chu Gai]

Perhaps my mind is too slow.....

Like in a lot of movies, you've got to watch and read carefully to pick up on the clues.

And I still don't really understand what happened to AV123, coz once they provided many products at exceedingly good prices, and I experienced a service level at least up to par with the best I ever experienced anywhere.

More money was taken out from the company than the company took in. A lot more. More than you can imagine. When that wasn't enough, there were the raffles. When that wasn't enough, suppliers weren't paid. When that wasn't enough we had preorders. When that wasn't enough workers weren't paid. When that wasn't enough, personal business loans weren't repaid. When that wasn't enough, familial loans weren't repaid. When that wasn't enough, we had people paying for the honor of being an RSL-II beta tester. When that wan't enough, we had money owed being converted to gift cards or store credits for a bit more than was owed.

As to where the money went, well it went to the nice cars he used to drive, the watches and pens he adored having, gifts he gave people, living the good life and dining well, the upscale home he bought, and the long vacations and business trips. You might also want to ask the former female fitness instructor who also did some selling at VA321 for a short time as well as the little Russian babe whom he visited when going Khabarosvsk or whom he had fly here. Ask her how the dog and two Lexus' are doing. Ask about the relaxation places in China he went to. Happy endings!

The prices only appeared to be good. They were inflated and hidden behind the rosewood veneer. That is unless the veneer had little pops in it because the openings for the drivers weren't routed out instead they were stamped out. Crossovers were highly problematic. Either you got a speaker with crossovers that had the right parts connected correctly or you didn't. That's why the upgraded premium crossovers did so well.

So once this seemed to be professional guys delivering top notch products at good prices and even providing first rate service to customers overseas (yes I had a claim an they fixed it immediately)

Of course I would never buy here again, but I'm very happy with what I got from them.....

Only for a brief time. He never invested in the company. No QC. No QA. No decent CRM software. Great facade though.

 

[fanuminski]

As for the people involved with the raffles, I don't want to speculate how the intended recipients might feel about the whole situation. As for the people who contributed to the raffles, I suppose it's a small price to pay to be a little wiser. Definitely to small to bring legal action.

Hmmm... I know I mentioned this before (somewhere), but do you remember
the last watch raffle there? I was peeved because there was no "winner"
ever listed. I requested my money back -via a Paypal request for a return
of funds. I think I emailed MLS also. Lo and behold, MLS immediately sent
me a reply stating that a gentleman in Canada had won the watch and
would be posting (or writing) a reply shortly. I returned the email
with a request that MLS should post that on his forum.
I remember that some guy (eventually) posted that he had won the watch -
but it always left a bad taste in my mouth. The whole thing sounded
(and smelled) fishy to me.

I wonder what would happen if EVERYONE who sent any money via Paypal
to MLS for those unpaid charities requested a refund of their money
via Paypal.

I think it very sad to just "accept" a lesson learned. NOTacceptable to me.

-M

 

[cmryan821]

Hmmm... I know I mentioned this before (somewhere), but do you remember
the last watch raffle there? I was peeved because there was no "winner"
ever listed. I requested my money back -via a Paypal request for a return
of funds. I think I emailed MLS also. Lo and behold, MLS immediately sent
me a reply stating that a gentleman in Canada had won the watch and
would be posting (or writing) a reply shortly. I returned the email
with a request that MLS should post that on his forum.
I remember that some guy (eventually) posted that he had won the watch -
but it always left a bad taste in my mouth. The whole thing sounded
(and smelled) fishy to me.

I wonder what would happen if EVERYONE who sent any money via Paypal
to MLS for those unpaid charities requested a refund of their money
via Paypal.

I think it very sad to just "accept" a lesson learned. NOTacceptable to me.

-M

I certainly understand it not being acceptable to you. After all, if the money wasn't given to the intended recipients it's theft, but most people seem to be largely indifferent about losing a relatively small amount.

As for what would mls do if everyone requested money back, I honestly think he'd send a mass email stating that he was sorry and that the funds would soon be transferred. Then the money wouldn't show up and the process would repeat itself as long as everyone had the will to continue it or brought a class action suit.

Just my opinion.

 

[haraldo]

Like in a lot of movies, you've got to watch and read carefully to pick up on the clues.

More money was taken out from the company than the company took in. A lot more. More than you can imagine. When that wasn't enough, there were the raffles. When that wasn't enough, suppliers weren't paid. When that wasn't enough we had preorders. When that wasn't enough workers weren't paid. When that wasn't enough, personal business loans weren't repaid. When that wasn't enough, familial loans weren't repaid. When that wasn't enough, we had people paying for the honor of being an RSL-II beta tester. When that wan't enough, we had money owed being converted to gift cards or store credits for a bit more than was owed.

As to where the money went, well it went to the nice cars he used to drive, the watches and pens he adored having, gifts he gave people, living the good life and dining well, the upscale home he bought, and the long vacations and business trips. You might also want to ask the former female fitness instructor who also did some selling at VA321 for a short time as well as the little Russian babe whom he visited when going Khabarosvsk or whom he had fly here. Ask her how the dog and two Lexus' are doing. Ask about the relaxation places in China he went to. Happy endings!

Is this something you know? or something you believe to be true?
I'm not challenging these statements at all, I'm just curious about the real story here

I think it very sad to just "accept" a lesson learned. NOTacceptable to me.
-M

Yes, to accept a big scam as "lesson learned" is totally unacceptable !

 

[gonk]

back OT, of the many people screwed over ... isn't there ANYONE doing any legal action?

Mark has stated that he's being quiet about the raffles at the direction of his lawyer. I wonder if any other people are doing the same from the other side of the equation? I do recall some forum exchanges between Mark and Sean Parque at TCA that mentioned lawyers being involved on both sides due to a dispute between them.

Perhaps my mind is too slow.....

And I still don't really understand what happened to AV123, coz once they provided many products at exceedingly good prices, and I experienced a service level at least up to par with the best I ever experienced anywhere.

So once this seemed to be professional guys delivering top notch products at good prices and even providing first rate service to customers overseas (yes I had a claim an they fixed it immediately)

Of course I would never buy here again, but I'm very happy with what I got from them.....

Well, there seem to have been a few issues.

• The Rockets aren't built by SAC anymore, and whatever factory now provides them has never been set up to produce the full line. They just make the RS850, RS450, and RSC200. The "Rocket II" line is still nothing but a pipe dream, as near as anyone can tell, and the original line is no longer truly a complete line with no bookshelf and no dipole surround.
• The X series production was all moved to Colombia, but there were quality issues with veneering that produced a lot of B-stock as well as cost-related problems. The X line has now been reduced drastically. It never had a dipole surround, but these days they seem to only offer the X-Static, X-Voce, X-Omni, and sometimes the X-CS.
• The subwoofers have been a long-running disaster for several years now, with repeated amplifier problems (numerous delays in UFW/ULW-10 replacements, substituting Parts Express amps, numerous delays in the UFW-12 Hot Rod kits, air leaks in various amps, and an entire generation or two of MFW-15's with amps that self-destructed), MFW-15 quality control problems (humming, missing or stripped screws in the drivers, veneer deterioration on A-stock cabinets), and several subs like the X-Sub Encore and BMF that never materialized. At this point, they offer exactly one subwoofer, and that's the MFW-15.
• The electronics offerings have been a mess. The X-Electronics line was to have at least half a dozen products, but years of delays have led to just two products so far. Both had launches that were marred by problems with the design and manufacturing, leading to additional delays as the initial batches had to be re-designed and new production runs built. The X-Amp hasn't been in stock in a while, so the only thing you can buy now from inventory is the X-Head.
• There are major money issues. Unknown amounts of money have been stolen from the community by Mark. A number of people have been demanding refunds since back in 2008 on undelivered orders and not been repaid.
• Promised products never materialized, even after people put down money for them. There were folks who bought gift certificates specifically to use to buy products like the BMF, RSC500, Reference 200 center, LS-4, and LS Center. None of those products exist, and aside from an LS-4 prototype cabinet last fall there is no sign that any are even still in development. A dozen people paid $6,000 each to be beta testers for the RSL-II speaker, which was supposedly just three months away from production back in early 2008. Here were are in early 2010, and there is no available information on when those dozen pairs of beta speakers will be built.
• The forum became a liability, then it became a travesty. When unrest got too great late in 2008, they closed it for six months (January to July 2009). When they re-opened, they still hadn't fixed the problems that led them to close it. Their solution was to implement what I termed "scorched earth" forum moderation. Posts asking about raffle money, refunds, massively delayed pre-paid LS deliveries, or other inconvenient issues are deleted and bans often follow. In fact, just weeks after Mark made a statement that bans on their forum are never permanent, they banned a number of us permanently (including me). The forum does not allow any discussion of the company's problems.

The sad thing is that the list above is just a quick overview of the problems. It isn't complete. It doesn't address things like Mark posting lies at AVS about long-time supporters who are mad at him for stealing from the raffles. It doesn't address Mark mailing out bad checks to folks who want refunds, knowing that the check would bounce. It doesn't address Mark delaying and deceiving LS-9 customers who wanted products they'd paid for years earlier. There are a number of other problems that aren't addressed above. As for why or how all of this happened, I can't explain it.

 

[Chu Gai]

Is this something you know? or something you believe to be true?
I'm not challenging these statements at all, I'm just curious about the real story here

Sources who have asked that their names not be used have confirmed this. More than one source. In some cases, there are supporting emails. In others cases you can pay for more in depth information searches not readily available to the general public who wants to get all their info for free. I wouldn't want to bet against me on this.

Yes, to accept a big scam as "lesson learned" is totally unacceptable !

Well, I don't accept it and I never gave to the raffles or other money making schemes. More lessons will have to be learned before class is over. I hear that the reality series, Real Audiophiles of Longmont has been picked up for another season.

 

[gonk]

I wonder what would happen if EVERYONE who sent any money via Paypal
to MLS for those unpaid charities requested a refund of their money
via Paypal.

I think it very sad to just "accept" a lesson learned. NOTacceptable to me.

Yes, to accept a big scam as "lesson learned" is totally unacceptable !

The raffles are a huge problem for Mark. I never put money into them, but I did push as hard as I could on Mark to get answers. That's why I'm permanently banned from AV123's forum. If you had money in the raffles and want to do something, I'd suggest contacting other raffle donors and trying to do something about it. Somebody has to get the ball rolling, and if you feel strongly about it then perhaps you are a good candidate for being that person.

 

[haraldo]

Sources who have asked that their names not be used have confirmed this. More than one source. In some cases, there are supporting emails. In others cases you can pay for more in depth information searches not readily available to the general public who wants to get all their info for free. I wouldn't want to bet against me on this.

Well, I don't accept it and I never gave to the raffles or other money making schemes. More lessons will have to be learned before class is over. I hear that the reality series, Real Audiophiles of Longmont has been picked up for another season.

Thx, good enough for me.....

 

[T2T]

• The subwoofers have been a long-running disaster for several years now, with repeated amplifier problems (numerous delays in UFW/ULW-10 replacements, substituting Parts Express amps, numerous delays in the UFW-12 Hot Rod kits, air leaks in various amps, and an entire generation or two of MFW-15's with amps that self-destructed), MFW-15 quality control problems (humming, missing or stripped screws in the drivers, veneer deterioration on A-stock cabinets), and several subs like the X-Sub Encore and BMF that never materialized. At this point, they offer exactly one subwoofer, and that's the MFW-15.

Actually, now Mark is touting that some of the "vibrations" or weird noises that are heard from the MFW-15 subs have to do with the butt joints. In a few months (ahem ... I mean years), they will be implementing the use of a special router bit for the joints creating more surface area for the glue to adhere to.

Any bets that this never gets implemented? It seems that through his advertising of this "better" joint is also an admission of the sub-par assembly process of the MFW-15, to date. Plenty of other companies have used regular butt joints for their subs and they're not experiencing any weird vibration noises. Hmm ...

 

[gonk]

A cynic might suggest that problems with construction at the joints could be related to the veneer problems that the Cali plant has had: Uniaudio's background is in steel, not wood.

 

[Chu Gai]

Actually, now Mark is touting that some of the "vibrations" or weird noises that are heard from the MFW-15 subs have to do with the butt joints. In a few months (ahem ... I mean years), they will be implementing the use of a special router bit for the joints creating more surface area for the glue to adhere to.

Any bets that this never gets implemented? It seems that through his advertising of this "better" joint is also an admission of the sub-par assembly process of the MFW-15, to date. Plenty of other companies have used regular butt joints for their subs and they're not experiencing any weird vibration noises. Hmm ...

Can you point to where this was said by Mark? But let's run with this thought.

When all the problems with VA321 happened, orders virtually dried up. Until the amp situation was resolved with respect to self-euthanizing themselves, Schifter not only had an inventory of subs he couldn't sell, he couldn't buy anymore. The UniAudio operation in Colombia was heavily geared to making cabinets for subs. Only a small fraction of their efforts was geared to making X series speakers. Hence, for all intents and purposes, UniAudio was shut down and workers were let go. VA321 was their only customer. Not only was UniAudio shut down but they too suffered financial losses and the need to repay lines of credit. Keep in mind here, that UniAudio was projecting certain sales and were buying inventory in anticipation of these sales. So, if a call came in to send 200 cabinets, they already had these cabinets on hand. Some finished, some in various states of completion as well as stockpiles of veneer, MDF (Trupan), and everything else needed to build future orders. But the orders stopped.

Now, let's fast forward to the time when the new amp modules came. After some hiccups, customers with affected product started receiving their replacements. When that was pretty much taken care of the subs in the warehouse were all retrofitted with the amp modules. Now, while they weren't blowing up, the did have problems. So, the sales of subs starts picking up. Eventually, Schifter has to order more subs. So what does he do? He calls his buddy Santiago at UniAudio and says hey, I need some subs. Santiago says, well sure Mark but everyone that used to work here with the exception of a couple are all gone. Now Mark knows Santiago has to get rid of the inventory. Better to sell it rather than take a total loss. Mark also knows that he's got Santiago in the rock and hard place area. So while Santiago wants X dollars per sub, Schifter offers him less. There's some negotiating but in the end Santiago sells for less than he was used to getting and also gets Schifter to buy the rest of the X-stuff that was in production.

So, now the stuff has to be finished. But the former workers who had some skills and were developing them are gone. So Santiago hires a few people, maybe a couple from the old days. He's pissed that he's got to accept less. He's pissed he's not making the LS's. So, he's determined that if he has to take less, he'll find a way to not take so much of a hit. So the veneer is of lesser quality, the routing on the cabinets is just a bit tight and that's why the amps fit so tightly, the cuts aren't so precise, the workers aren't as skilled, the glue is put on quickly, the drying times are less and if the finish isn't so good that there are subsurface scratches, who the phuck cares?

Hence, if there are indeed problems due to whatever Mark is spinning, can you see why there are? I sure can.

 

[Eddie Horton]

In that same thread where Mark talks about the new router bit, this guys asks a couple of time in a couple of different ways about the hum problem and Mark completely dodges that part. I don't see how you can't call the hum problem an epidemic, even with the new amps. There's way to much talk of it all over the forums. Fact is, with the MFW, you had a solid design my Mark Seaton with ultra cheapo manufacturing and no QC by 123. This sub is half DIY on its best day.

 

[T2T]

Can you point to where this was said by Mark? But let's run with this thought.

Here's the thread:

http://forums.av123.com/showthread.php?t=42897

 

[Chu Gai]

Here's the thread:

http://forums.av123.com/showthread.php?t=42897

Gotcha!

In that same thread where Mark talks about the new router bit, this guys asks a couple of time in a couple of different ways about the hum problem and Mark completely dodges that part. I don't see how you can't call the hum problem an epidemic, even with the new amps. There's way to much talk of it all over the forums. Fact is, with the MFW, you had a solid design my Mark Seaton with ultra cheapo manufacturing and no QC by 123. This sub is half DIY on its best day.

He talks about a new tool coming in and here I'm thinking some substantial CNC machine capable of cranking out stuff, and what do I see? A freakin' router bit! Gee, show me some pictures of the new screwdriver too!

The hums are troubling but who knows what they're due to? As it stands now, from what I've read, the amp board is made at QSC in Colorado and unless things have changed, the rest comes from his buddy Zeng Ming aka Steven Zeng of Crealm. Did you know Crealm has made boxes for Rythmik? His fallback to needing a three prong plug to meet FCC and CE regulations is laughable. Even though the back of the amps is screened with those logos, they haven't been tested. That's right, they haven't been tested. They're just put on there. Why, there's a fellow who has posted that his MFW causes both FM and set top box interference! While hums are not unknown and can be due to other factors, many have found that their subs develop more serious hums over time. That speaks to some kind of design issue in the rest of the assembly as I'm giving QSC in Colorado a pass on this one. The cheater plug suggestion approach is bogus. Why in the amps that VA321 is selling (the Parts Express ones), the manual explicitly states that one should not use a cheater plug to address a hum.

In the meantime, pay up Mark! Skiman got his speakers. Where's everybody elses? When are you going to take care of Sean? When are you going to pay back the raffles? When are you going to pay back the people that want refunds? When!?

 

[Chu Gai]

Gee, I'd love to be a member at VA321

to respond to Mark, but if I did, it'd just be deleted promptly. Can't say as I'd blame him though So, in the link provided earlier, I'll just take a moment and respond to this post by Shifty.

Thanks for your note...

At this moment - we are NOT making MFW-15 in Rosewood. These were made in China by a very good factory (they used to make the entry level series at Revel - GREAT PRODUCTS BTW) that I have been friendly with for more than 11 years. This factory also made DIVA in the early days as well as the very first Rockets ever made...

Mark is always great at name dropping but short on providing verification for his claims. Hi-Vi has denied any association with having contracted with a factory that produced both Diva's and Rockets. The one thing you can be sure of is that Rockets or any of his other speakers or subs are NOT made to the same standards as Swans or Revels.

That said - we are not making more at the moment. There does exist a very small number of Rosewood B and C Stock that's here. As these are very scarce - we usually don't have them up on our list. You can check with ordersupport@av123.com or even sales@av123.com and they can give you the 411. Kyle is out until Thursday - but we are doing our best to stay caught up...

Can you only imagine what a C looks like? And they're not being made at the present time because there's no money to buy them at the present time as you've got to buy a definite quantity and there's lead time and there's the fact that those cabs cost more than what Cali can provide.

The MFW-15's we made in Rosewood were generally very good. I do know of a few units that did have some freight damage - but NOTHING like the previous order from China. That packing proved to not be very good... we fixed that...

Maybe the feet ought to have been packaged separately? More success stories from the vaunted VA321 Engineering Department.

There may also be some older Pali units here (not sure) and these are lovely except for the veneer issues we had. Colombia makes a FANTASTIC cabinet - and we are proud of them. The next step is simply to improve...

That's it. Try and butter them up. Too bad the fantastic cabinet has veneer problems and the hole for the amp needs to be a smidgen larger, but hey! 'Course, if they hadn't been screwed over and forced into cheap veneers to hit a price point, well...

Thanks for your inquiry...

Mark

You betcha! And a humbly bumbly to you

 

[Stereodude]

Well, there seem to have been a few issues.

You can't forget about Mark not paying his contractors either.

 

[gonk]

You can't forget about Mark not paying his contractors either.

I knew I forgot some things. I also forgot about them delaying shipment of speakers and parts to a former employee, and then leaving out half of the ordered stuff when they finally did fill the order. Sean is still waiting for the balance of his order. Gotta love quality customer service...

 

[Chu Gai]

I knew I forgot some things. I also forgot about them delaying shipment of speakers and parts to a former employee, and then leaving out half of the ordered stuff when they finally did fill the order. Sean is still waiting for the balance of his order. Gotta love quality customer service...

Let's slightly amend that by pointing out that Sean was supposed to get A-stock and given the veneer issues received a B-stock cabinet. Further, the veneer even wasn't the one he was supposed to get. Really, what was the point of even shipping it? To just make him grateful that he got something? Each year you hear the same old thing. Next year will be better. Next year will see changes. Next year we'll see more improvement. Always next year. If VA321 was located in a Scandinavian country, they'd have euthanized it already

 

[T2T]

Let's slightly amend that by pointing out that Sean was supposed to get A-stock and given the veneer issues received a B-stock cabinet. Further, the veneer even wasn't the one he was supposed to get. Really, what was the point of even shipping it? To just make him grateful that he got something? Each year you hear the same old thing. Next year will be better. Next year will see changes. Next year we'll see more improvement. Always next year. If VA321 was located in a Scandinavian country, they'd have euthanized it already

Yet, each day there are new people who follow, and believe what Mark is saying. Sadly, it took me some time to catch on to all of these "next year", "just around the corner", statements that Mark would make ... only to see them never come true. The newcomers seem convinced that they don't need to listen to the veterans and believe Mark 100%. I guess no one can rush a "good" education.

 

[Chu Gai]

The sun'll come out
Tomorrow
Bet your bottom dollar
That tomorrow
There'll be sun!

Just thinkin' about
Tomorrow
Clears away the cobwebs,
And the sorrow
'Til there's none!

When I'm stuck a day
That's gray,
And lonely,
I just stick out my chin
And Grin,
And Say,
Oh!

The sun'll come out
Tomorrow
So ya gotta hang on
'Til tomorrow
Come what may
Tomorrow! Tomorrow!
I love ya Tomorrow!
You're always
A day
A way!​