Do CD-Rs sound better than the original CD?

[dlorde]

The Mitsuis seem to accentuate small details, make them more apparent (solid state). The Memorexes seem to have a more relaxed, organic sound.

Personally I'd rather not have small details accentuated, or the sound made 'more relaxed and organic'.

Any recommendations for a CD-R that is simply neutral - i.e. doesn't do anything to the sound?

p.s. what kind of changes make music more 'organic' ? I keep visualising muddy carrots, which can't be right...

 

[Rip Van Woofer]

I apologize if my terminology is inadequate to convey meaning. I try....

I wasn't taking your descriptive powers to task; I was making a broader point based on your post about the excessively vague terminology used by many to describe sound. You merely supplied a handy example! Such terminology seems to have sprung from subjective audio reviewers and serves only to muddy the waters, IMO. Still, I grant that describing sound is tricky!

To expand on dlorde's point: yes, the whole point of CDs (or any other recording/playback medium or system) is to render the sound -- actually, the input signal -- faithfully, with as little added or subtracted as is technically feasible. I and others, of course, think that all CD media do that already. Like I said, if there really is a difference (and that is the controversy here) then maybe something's not right! *EDIT 11/13: Unless a copy can somehow magically restore information that was lost or distorted in the original (a highly unlikely scenario IMO - unless the copying involves some sort of reconstruction/enhancement process to recover or "recreate" the lost/distorted info) it is difficult to imagine the copy being "better" -- if quality is measured by fidelity. I mean, I know you can do amazing things digitally but still...I don't think consumer disc burning software includes that functionality! Heck, even the click/noise reduction is kinda clunky in Roxio Toast for Mac.

 

[miklorsmith]

Your assumption is correct. Muddy carrots are not an accurate description of the sound.

We all have our preferences in audio - some people will only listen to vinyl while others don't own a single record. For speakers, some camps are hardcore Lowther-type, single-driver fans while others need 20 hz - 50 khz extension and as many drivers as necessary to achieve it. Some are willing to travel to the arctic for polar ice that makes really clean water for the purest possible CD cleaning solution (kidding, I think). Tubes vs. solid state is certainly not the separation it used to be, but I think it's still a valid comparison for this sort of discussion.

Preferences determine what we believe is true to the music and which parts are the most important. Nearly everything is a compromise of some sort. Example - I went over to a friend's house who was demo'ing a nice pair of B&W speakers. I thought they were horribly bright in the treble while he liked them. He then came over to my house and we spent a couple of hours with my Tannoys which I find to be much more balanced. He thought they were recessed in the upper reaches.

Who's right and what is neutral? The concert hall is neutral, but nearly all recorded music has had its dynamics compressed and possibly has been manipulated to sound better on certain (cheap) equipment. Much popular music has been bumped up in the treble and bass before you even buy the CD. How do we achieve neutrality when we don't even know what's on the disc? Further, even if the disc was "neutral", very few stereo systems are capable of bringing that performance into your house.

Ultimately, I think the presentations of both blanks are accurate and both sound better than the original (that still sounds funny to say). I probably will use both, since my taste ranges from classic jazz to electronica to heavy metal to classical (no country). I think the Mitsuis present a little more edge and likely will be preferable with highly charged music, while the Memorexes would be better for voices, horns, and acoustic sounds.

Further, I will continue to experiment. Memorexes (Prodisc and CMC) are the only blacks I can find but I continue to search and will try just about anything I can get my hands on. I will be seeking my own personal neutrality, but that doesn't mean it would be yours.

 

[miklorsmith]

There is a November update to the infamous paper:

http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/whitepaper/White Paper on Black CDs ver 3.1.pdf

Happy reading!

 

[erin]

Black CD-R is the best

My experience is that the black CD-R's (the ones with a black playing surface) are the best sounding discs. I have found that they sound very detailed and dont have any harsh sound to the "top end". I used to burn at 4X speed and then i found that 10X sounded exactly the same to me.
I have tried the silver CD-R's and they always sounded harsh to me.
I also tried some expensive gold coloured CD-R's and they also sounded harsh (also burnt at 4X).

I did do an experiment once and compared an original CD to one burnt on a Black CD-R, I did observe a difference to the presentation of the sound, I liked what I heard. There was no loss of bass or treble, perhaps a more pronounced midrange, as someone else on this thread observed.

I dont know if its better than the original, but its on par with the original, with a different presentation, which some people may prefer.
I would recomend these discs above all others.

I have no idea what causes this difference, and I dont want to speculate, I know that electronically it should not be any different, as the data is the same.

 

[mtrycrafts]

My experience is that the black CD-R's (the ones with a black playing surface) are the best sounding discs. I have found that they sound very detailed and dont have any harsh sound to the "top end". I used to burn at 4X speed and then i found that 10X sounded exactly the same to me.
I have tried the silver CD-R's and they always sounded harsh to me.
I also tried some expensive gold coloured CD-R's and they also sounded harsh (also burnt at 4X).

I did do an experiment once and compared an original CD to one burnt on a Black CD-R, I did observe a difference to the presentation of the sound, I liked what I heard. There was no loss of bass or treble, perhaps a more pronounced midrange, as someone else on this thread observed.

I dont know if its better than the original, but its on par with the original, with a different presentation, which some people may prefer.
I would recomend these discs above all others.

I have no idea what causes this difference, and I dont want to speculate, I know that electronically it should not be any different, as the data is the same.

Welcome.
I have an idea why you received what you did. Human psychology, the brain looks for change even if there is no difference.

If the copy to that black CD is numerically identical, there is no reason what so ever for them to sound different other than urban legends, myths, voodoo, and bias.
I bet your comparison was not very well conducted and human bias entered the the picture that produced the stated differences.

 

[SammyMac]

Hi
I use Taiyo Yuden CDRs, my burner is a SOny DW-U14A, rather old now but seems good. Hard to tell any difference with a copy and an original cd.

i heard these PlexWriter Premium2 are very good and the now discontined Yamaha R1

 

[JerryLove]

This has probably already been said but: bits are bits. There is zero difference between the data on the two (unless you've had an error in copying, but that's caught by error-checking).

On a computer-cd-based system (most car, all computer, some home) there are zero uncorrected reads on a non-damaged disk. This means that the exact same data gets to the DAC from a CD, CD-R (black, silver, whatever).

It would be true to say that a given laser will have an easier time with some colors than others: but this would only come into play with a non-error-checking CD (old audio gear) and a borderline-failing disk.

 

[SammyMac]

This has probably already been said but: bits are bits. There is zero difference between the data on the two (unless you've had an error in copying, but that's caught by error-checking).

On a computer-cd-based system (most car, all computer, some home) there are zero uncorrected reads on a non-damaged disk. This means that the exact same data gets to the DAC from a CD, CD-R (black, silver, whatever).

It would be true to say that a given laser will have an easier time with some colors than others: but this would only come into play with a non-error-checking CD (old audio gear) and a borderline-failing disk.

thanks Jerry,
Yes, i find after doing listening tests yet again, very much the same, that was a direct rip (uncompressed from Nero) of a cd to a Taiyo Yuden (which ive never had any problems with. Most of my cd players are old 80s except the Philips 850MK2 which is around 1991 i think

 

[3db]

Dam, I must be as deaf as a post. I can't here the difference between an original CD and a copied CD assuming equal signal strengths on both

 

[GO-NAD!]

Dam, I must be as deaf as a post. I can't here the difference between an original CD and a copied CD assuming equal signal strengths on both

I don't think you're deaf. Either that, or I'm deaf too!