Do audiophiles hear something we don't?

[Bucknekked]

Wow, look at that.

I don't know what's more fun, looking at the pictures of all that equipment or looking at the signatures of some of those members.

turntable: American Sound AS-2000; tonearms: SME 3012R, Bergmann Audio Odin; cartridges: ZYX UNIverse Premium X-SB2, Air Tight Opus 1; tape: Studer A820 Mk II; phono stage: Aesthetix Io Eclipse; line stage: VTL TL-7.5 Series III; amplifier: VTL Siegfried Series II; loudspeaker: Gryphon Pendragon; cables: MasterBuilt Ultra; stands: Vintage Audio Nothing racks, Herzan TS-140/Taiko Tana for Io, Stacore Basic+ for amps; power: Torus AVR60BAL; room: 19' wide X 24' long X 14' tall; acoustic treatment: ASC IsoThermal Tube Traps, Lumitex drapes

DCS Vivaldi 2.0 stack, Metronome Kalista / Kondo KSL DAC, Wilson Audio XLF's, EMT927, SME3012R, ARC Phono 3, ARC REF40, cj GAT2 - ART's, Lamm ML3/LL1, TA Opus MM2 speaker and signal, Moghami cables, TA XL digital, TA XL gen V power cables, CenterStage footers and Nordost Qkore8's!

MBL 101E, Martin Logan Statement E2 SubTowers, Modded Maplenoll Ariadne Signature, SME 3012R,BenzMicro LPS and Ebony TR, Aesthetix Io Eclipse with 2 power supplys, Primare 928 and 201,Krell Kps 25sc, MBL9011,Krell700Cx,Ps Audio P500,Ps Audio P300, Straightwire Crescendo 1 and 2. Mogami.

American Sound 2000, SME 3012R, Colibri Master Signature, Opus1, EMT JPA66 MkII, Cessaro Gamma II, Lamm ML3 Sig, Lamm LL1.1 Sig., Studer A820, Doshi V3.0, Kuro SilverGold, Ching Cheng, Stacore, and KLAudio.

nalog: SME 30/12, SME V-12, My Sonic Labs Signature Gold, AirTight Supreme, VDH Colibri Platinum, MINT LP protractor
Electronics: Pass Labs XA160.5 amp, XP-22 preamp, XP-27 phono, Cables: Transparent REF XL MM2,
Speakers: Magico Q3, Essentials: Jim Smith RoomPlay, 3 Vibraplanes, Dedicated circuits

Bespoke Audio Silver TVC passive preamp, Bent Audio AVC-1 full-balanced autoformer passive preamp, MC2 S1400 monoblocks, Magico S5 speaker, CAS with MSB Platinum IV Plus dac, MSB Select Transport, UMT Plus & Signature Transport Powerbase, PLiXiR and Furman isolation transformers.

Analog-VPI Classic3-3DArm,SoundsmithZephyrII+MiyajimaZeromono,Herron VTPH2A,2xAmpexATR102+Doshi3.0
Dig Rip-Pyramix,IzotopeRX3Adv,MykerinosCard,PacMicroModel2
Dig Play-Lampi Pacific,NADACmch,Roon/HQP,Oppo95
Electronics-HerronVTSP360Pre,CJ MET1mchPre,Cary2A3monoamps
Speakers-AvantgardeDuosLR,3SolosC,LR,RR
Other-ArtKelmGround1,AudioDiskVinylCleaner,AirTightRecordFlat
Scott Rust Interconnects,Switch,Symmetric Power Supply
Music-15KRecs(90%classical),1KR2Rtapes,1.5KCD's,500SACDs,50TBripped files

Speaker: Wilson Audio Maxx 3, Pre: Koda Takumi K10 G2, Grandinote Genesi Amp: VTL S-400 Dac: Lampizator GG 2.5 CD-Drive: Oracle CD2000 PhonoPre: AudioSpecials AS, Boulder 2008, Audia Flight, Phono: Micro Seiki DDX1500, TechDas AF3P, TechDAS AF V, Tonearm: FR64s/fx, 54, 24 MKII, Ikeda 407/345, SME 3012R, AirTangent Reference, Cartridge: Ikeda 9TT, Ikeda 9mono, shun mook MC 1, vdh Master Signature, SPU Century, Air Tight PC-1, Step up: Ikeda IST-201, Fidelity Research Fx-2H, Fx-2L, Cables: NBS BL III, XLO limited, ETI, JPS Aluminata Reference / Super, Vertere, Phasemation, Power: Furutech Powerblock 6E Rack: Artesania Exoteryc, HRS SXR, CMS, Bases: CMS Maxxum II, CMS Back Diamond, HRS M3x, Accurion i4L, Grounding: Telos GNR, Entreq

Reference Components: Zero Distortion Link; Own: Lampi GG One-day-to-get: hORNs Universum III Backup: Modded tannoys (vintage drivers, new cabinets, modded crossover) + SETs/OTL amp rolling Analog shortlist: VDH master Sig Stradivarius, Allaerts, Decca; Allnic phono/burmester 100, in increasing order of price Schopper TD124, ST ST Motus II, Brinkmann Balance, Vyger Atlantis

Wave Kin. NVS tt, Durand Telos Sapphire arm, CA Gold Stat cart, -3- Studer A-820 RTR (1/4" + (2) 1/2").*MSB Select II dac w/33 Femto clock + mono powerbases, SGM serv + (2x) 30 tb NAS. *darT NHB-18NS w/2 phonos, King-Cello. *dart 458 mono blocks. EA MM7. *Equi=tech 10WQ, (10) Abso Fid PC & (2) Evo Acou PC. *Evo Acou 12' TRSC and 8m + 1.25m 'zeel' ic's, *Tripoint Troy Sig + Elite, Entreq Sil Tel + Pos, Taiko Tana (2) TS-140 & (2) TS-150, Wave Kin. A10 U8's + 2NS, Adona GTX.

The particular forum where this was posted is a "what's the best in the world?" type of forum. Forget price performance. Forget what's reasonable. What these folks revel in is excess. If it isn't "over the top", well, it isn't a candidate for best in the world stuff. I have no idea what most of the equipment is in their signature blocks. But, I'm pretty sure its expensive and absolutely of no actual value. To me. To them, well, it obviously means something because they laid out the cash

 

[Verdinut]

I figure if I want to do some of my own DJ work, I should get two of those $400k turntables.
Then I'd look truly in style as I do my 65 year old DJ shuffle.

And you would need a crane to transport them!

I figure that people who see that kind of equipment spend more time looking at it than listening to it.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Stuff that I know many of you will want to run right out and consider purchasing. This stuff is reasonably priced and should be right up many of your alleys.
Listening to Michael Fremer as vinyl DJ: Priceless (or deduct -$400,000 if you are like me)

NORTH AMERICAN DEBUT OF TURNTABLE & SPEAKERS

Lmao! Just the kind of thing someone should fit up Michael Fremers alley!!!(love the 400k deduction!)

Good to see ya buck.

 

[Mikado463]

I figure that people who see that kind of equipment spend more time looking at it than listening to it.

as well as talking about it(as we do) on internet forums. On a serious side I see nothing wrong if one has the means to do what he or she wants to with their money. The fact remains, the best 100k system will most always outperform the best 10k system. The problem lies with respect to diminishing returns vs. ones ego, there in lies an area of cloudiness ...............

 

[lovinthehd]

as well as talking about it(as we do) on internet forums. On a serious side I see nothing wrong if one has the means to do what he or she wants to with their money. The fact remains, the best 100k system will most always outperform the best 10k system. The problem lies with respect to diminishing returns vs. ones ego, there in lies an area of cloudiness ...............

Maybe if the guy throwing money at the gear has a clue about acoustics etc....some of the rooms I've seen very expensive gear in just makes me wonder why they bother sometimes. Definitely room for a well setup 10k system to embarass the guy with the fat wallet...

 

[Mikado463]

Maybe if the guy throwing money at the gear has a clue about acoustics etc....some of the rooms I've seen very expensive gear in just makes me wonder why they bother sometimes. Definitely room for a well setup 10k system to embarass the guy with the fat wallet...

yes, agreed, that's why I said, 'most always' ......

 

[lovinthehd]

yes, agreed, that's why I said, 'most always' ......

I'd say more like "sometimes" from the many photos I've seen.

 

[Bucknekked]

Maybe if the guy throwing money at the gear has a clue about acoustics etc....some of the rooms I've seen very expensive gear in just makes me wonder why they bother sometimes. Definitely room for a well setup 10k system to embarass the guy with the fat wallet...

I don't know if you noticed by reading the article, but what they did to demo this near million dollar system also boggles my mind a bit. They went to an empty warehouse and then carved out a temporary room. Used plastic walls and other such stuff to create a room. Then they installed a million dollars worth of stuff for the "unveiling".
The room had to be a complete unknown mess to try and tune.

One of the observers on the forum has this most excellent quote: "As we all know it is difficult to conclude anything objectively and accurately about the overall sound of a system, and the contribution of the individual components thereto, in the best of circumstances, but when you are listening to unfamiliar music on an unfamiliar system in an unfamiliar room it is difficult to ascertain anything at all. "

Yet they chose to demo this high priced stuff in a room nobody knew much about, playing music they were not familiar with, and then all the other variables of uncertainty.

I think yet another quote from one of their forum members says it pretty well : "... at $400K, this starts to scream to me "audio jewelry" rather than a serious attempt on performance " (edited slightly)

I think the "unveiling" was a bit of the showing of someones "audio jewelry". I hope they got their monies worth.

 

[lovinthehd]

I don't know if you noticed by reading the article, but what they did to demo this near million dollar system also boggles my mind a bit. They went to an empty warehouse and then carved out a temporary room. Used plastic walls and other such stuff to create a room. Then they installed a million dollars worth of stuff for the "unveiling".
The room had to be a complete unknown mess to try and tune.

One of the observers on the forum has this most excellent quote: "As we all know it is difficult to conclude anything objectively and accurately about the overall sound of a system, and the contribution of the individual components thereto, in the best of circumstances, but when you are listening to unfamiliar music on an unfamiliar system in an unfamiliar room it is difficult to ascertain anything at all. "

Yet they chose to demo this high priced stuff in a room nobody knew much about, playing music they were not familiar with, and then all the other variables of uncertainty.

I think yet another quote from one of their forum members says it pretty well : "... at $400K, this starts to scream to me "audio jewelry" rather than a serious attempt on performance " (edited slightly)

I think the "unveiling" was a bit of the showing of someones "audio jewelry". I hope they got their monies worth.

LOL no, didn't read the article...might now, tho!

 

[Irvrobinson]

The particular forum where this was posted is a "what's the best in the world?" type of forum. Forget price performance. Forget what's reasonable. What these folks revel in is excess. If it isn't "over the top", well, it isn't a candidate for best in the world stuff. I have no idea what most of the equipment is in their signature blocks. But, I'm pretty sure its expensive and absolutely of no actual value. To me. To them, well, it obviously means something because they laid out the cash

Awesome find. I always suspected a site like that had to exist, but I never bothered to look. My favorite bit of irony... Amir Majidimehr, founder of the Audio Science Review web site, which is mostly about engineering and measurement (www.audiosciencereview.com), and apparently was once active in the "what's best" site, is currently banned from it.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Years ago, Amir used to argue daily with Arny Krueger on another forum. They went back and forth over the existence / non-existence of sonic differences in cables and amps.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Years ago, Amir used to argue daily with Arny Krueger on another forum. They went back and forth over the existence / non-existence of sonic differences in cables and amps.

Amir is a convert to reality? ;-) Do you have any links to that discussion? It is difficult to believe that any graduate EE believes in cable differences. On the other hand, I used to work with a CMU MSEE who believed it.

 

[highfigh]

BSA
That was one takeaway. Another was that is was all men. All men. The rumor of a woman in the building was never substantiated. He found that hilarious. I think it mirrors my reality in the hobby. I have no idea why, but, it seems to be a hobby dominated by men. For what reason I can only guess. I don't want to ask the woman in my life because I'm pretty sure she would tell me the answer.

I was discussing some changes to a system with a customer and as we talked, his wife walked by and said "You guys are such nerds".

We both said, "And?".

 

[highfigh]

I have often wondered why a small island nation (GB) that I think, as a proportion of their population, produced a greater number of civilization-changing geniuses than any other nation (including a high number of ground-breaking leaders in audio engineering),also seems to produce the weirdest, least-scientific, silliest audiophiles on the planet.

England and GB as a whole are an old group of countries and their gene pool has been added to by outsiders many times- the knowledge brought in made a huge difference WRT when things came about, even before and after the Dark Ages. I can't imagine how much knowledge was lost during that time, but in light of the Ancient Civilizations and their accomplishments, it must have been a substantial amount but in mentioning the Ancient Civilizations, look at what the Romans and Greeks did well before people started putting BC, AD or BCE after the year. The information exchanged led to later developments, as shown in the link below but the achievements that occurred in the 1st Millennium are amazing and many were necessary for later discoveries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_scientific_discoveries

 

[Irvrobinson]

England and GB as a whole are an old group of countries and their gene pool has been added to by outsiders many times- the knowledge brought in made a huge difference WRT when things came about, even before and after the Dark Ages.

I was referring to culture, not genetics.

 

[lovinthehd]

Awesome find. I always suspected a site like that had to exist, but I never bothered to look. My favorite bit of irony... Amir Majidimehr, founder of the Audio Science Review web site, which is mostly about engineering and measurement (www.audiosciencereview.com), and apparently was once active in the "what's best" site, is currently banned from it.

Wasn't Amir also a co-founder of WBF? That's what I remember. He also sells hi-end audio thru his company Madrone or Madrona or something like that. Can you say jitter?

As to the British Empire, they did a lot of sucking up of wealth/artifacts/knowledge, not just genetics....

 

[Irvrobinson]

Wasn't Amir also a co-founder of WBF? That's what I remember. He also sells hi-end audio thru his company Madrone or Madrona or something like that. Can you say jitter?

As to the British Empire, they did a lot of sucking up of wealth/artifacts/knowledge, not just genetics....

Amir's company is Madrona Digital. I ordered my Revel speakers from him about the time they were opening. He's not listed as a founder of WBF, but he is banned.

As for the British, I was referring to scientists like Newton, Faraday, Hawking, Darwin, Turing, Halley, Maxwell, Lovelace, Crick, Hoyle (though he went off the deep end...),to name a few, who are of course individuals, and have nothing to do with sucking up anything. It just struck me as such a contrast with reading some British audiophile magazines, that would seem to make even the Absolute Sound editors blush.

 

[VonMagnum]

And, audiophile purists would not hesitate to quote Dr. Toole when he claimed auto room EQ systems wouldn't work because what the mic measured wasn't what we heard, the our ears are the best.... etc.etc., yet they seemed to ignore him when he, the same Dr. Toole, also claimed the only way to get consistent results is to do it blind, in one of the 1 hour and 14 minutes long video, he said "if you know what are you are listening to, I don't care what you think.....it doesn't matter.......

It's most similar to a religion (not trying to start a religious discussion, just making a comparison to explain human behavior) .

You can't use logic to argue with the faithful. Similarly, even the fanatics are often hypocrites, picking out the things they agree with and wielding them like a weapon and ignoring all the things they don't agree with and if called on it, they will say god will forgive them, but not these other people they don't happen to like...their lifestyle dooms them, of course!

You can't prove God's existence either way with science, but take something slightly simpler like trying to convince an audiophile that a double blind test will prove their claim right or wrong is then probably more similar to offering a flat earther a ride into orbit to prove the Earth isn't flat with their own eyes. They will likely fight even the temptation (usually out of fear) but even if you do prove it to them and they don't just say they were hallucinating or bewitched by demons or whatever, like the Amish they will be cast out and shunned by their brethren and they don't want that. This is similar to the Cave analogy with Plato (or the Bob Carver challenge to Stereophile).

Now to take the other side, some, like Santa Claus likely know many of the claims are dubious at best, but things like tube amps are more "fun" than solid state and both Christmas and pro wrestling are more fun if you even half convince yourself it "might" be real or at least partly real!

The soft glow of tubes on shiny aluminum or steel chassis, the ritual of high-end basic controls like toggle switches and setting the anti-skate control on a turntable before playing a used record you got at a garage sale (mining gold! They didn't know what they had!). It's so like a religion. You gain comfort from the ritual, the knowledge of doing things "right". The audio gods are pleased with you and smile brightly on you with good fortune!

The allure to the untrained mind is very strong! I feel its tug even now...must resist that Carver Silver Seven set of tube amps...tell myself it was just a marketing ploy to sell the transfer modification function line of solid state amps to audiophiles....but it sounded so good!!! Ugh....I must have them! I must! To eBay before someone else gets them! .... Damn! I was too late Marty! I can't get back to the future! How could I invent some fool 1.21 gigawatts!?! I can't generate that kind of power! It can't be done, Tom! It can't!

 

[lovinthehd]

Amir's company is Madrona Digital. I ordered my Revel speakers from him about the time they were opening. He's not listed as a founder of WBF, but he is banned.

As for the British, I was referring to scientists like Newton, Faraday, Hawking, Darwin, Turing, Halley, Maxwell, Lovelace, Crick, Hoyle (though he went off the deep end...), to name a few, who are of course individuals, and have nothing to do sucking up anything. It just struck me as such a contrast with reading some British audiophile magazines, that would seem to make even the Absolute Sound editors blush.

Seems when I first ran into Amir (in the Arny debates) I looked him up on WBF and thought he was listed as a founder but that's been a while.

Yes, they have some scientists of note but is it really disproportionate to other countries? The sucking up of knowledge via conquest I think still has a bearing on igniting curiosity to an extent. You mean like the Wigwam conference kinda nuttiness?

 

[MrBoat]

I have an old, recycled, $30 Hitachi direct drive turntable from the early 80's nearbouts, in near mint condition. There was nothing special about it other than I knew it to be reliable and to human ears, silent, beyond the music it takes from the record. It's beautiful, in a minimalistic sense.

The contraptions that make up the super expensive versions would visually bore me after about a week and it would end up in the closet.