Diy folded open baffle. Size? And how does depth pipe the mids exactly?

A

Ant27

Audiophyte
So I’ve been studying hifi acoustic design, in part to help my dad set up his hifi systems properly (his diy sub enclosure sounds awful), but also because I’m a musician and I like to know the rules to know what happens when I break them. The electric guitar originally was intended for accurate amplified reproduction of acoustics, and the rest of its success was by doing that completely wrong, although blindly. I like to be intentional.

Anyways, I have a vintage phillips 6” full range I’m making an enclosure for. It’ll be for colored instrument production, not hifi reproduction. So far I’ve been breaking all the rules with intent, but folded open baffle design is much harder to find information on. (The speaker is best suited to an open enclosure).

I’m mostly interested in how folded baffle depth acts like a pipe and bumps the mid range, how does it do that exactly? And what dimensions define the frequency of that bump? Well placed non-linear bumps can be very musical when used to voice an instrument, but can of course sound awful when poorly placed.

I also don’t understand how baffle dimensions are calculated for low frequency response. I know the baffle size legthens the travel of sound from the rear of the speaker, shifting its phase at the point it meets the front. Lower frequencies can still cancel out because their longer wavelengths won’t shift into phase completely with certain baffle dimensions, and those dimensions are used to tune low frequency response. I just don’t know how they come to finding those dimensions for an intended response.

These same rules apply to hifi open baffle design, and since theres very few places of information on designing open baffles, i think a thread on this is generally useful.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
So I’ve been studying hifi acoustic design, in part to help my dad set up his hifi systems properly (his diy sub enclosure sounds awful), but also because I’m a musician and I like to know the rules to know what happens when I break them. The electric guitar originally was intended for accurate amplified reproduction of acoustics, and the rest of its success was by doing that completely wrong, although blindly. I like to be intentional.

Anyways, I have a vintage phillips 6” full range I’m making an enclosure for. It’ll be for colored instrument production, not hifi reproduction. So far I’ve been breaking all the rules with intent, but folded open baffle design is much harder to find information on. (The speaker is best suited to an open enclosure).

I’m mostly interested in how folded baffle depth acts like a pipe and bumps the mid range, how does it do that exactly? And what dimensions define the frequency of that bump? Well placed non-linear bumps can be very musical when used to voice an instrument, but can of course sound awful when poorly placed.

I also don’t understand how baffle dimensions are calculated for low frequency response. I know the baffle size legthens the travel of sound from the rear of the speaker, shifting its phase at the point it meets the front. Lower frequencies can still cancel out because their longer wavelengths won’t shift into phase completely with certain baffle dimensions, and those dimensions are used to tune low frequency response. I just don’t know how they come to finding those dimensions for an intended response.

These same rules apply to hifi open baffle design, and since theres very few places of information on designing open baffles, i think a thread on this is generally useful.
I'm not sure what you are talking about. Never heard of a folded open baffle. I think you are probably referring to a TQWT speakers and TLs. The design of these is somewhat complex, but as with all designs you can not begin without the Thiel/Small (T/S) parameters of the driver. This has to be obtained from reliable specs or measured with appropriate loudspeaker measuring software.

If this speaker is to be used as an instrument speaker then I would just put it in a box with the back wide open. If you are using it as an instrument speaker and it not designed as such, you will probably destroy it rather quickly.
 
A

Ant27

Audiophyte
I'm not sure what you are talking about. Never heard of a folded open baffle. I think you are probably referring to a TQWT speakers and TLs. The design of these is somewhat complex, but as with all designs you can not begin without the Thiel/Small (T/S) parameters of the driver. This has to be obtained from reliable specs or measured with appropriate loudspeaker measuring software.

If this speaker is to be used as an instrument speaker then I would just put it in a box with the back wide open. If you are using it as an instrument speaker and it not designed as such, you will probably destroy it rather quickly.
http://www.mh-audio.nl/ob.asp Also called a dipole speaker. Used very commonly up until the 60’s in hifi applications, so probably why its not “heard of”, But modern high end open baffle designs are around and theres plenty of people that enjoy diy’ing them. They’re simply just a baffle with no enclosure. Out of phase Highs and mids are directional and pointed away, so with proper positioning, they blend in nicely with the liveliness of a room. Although stereo imaging takes a hit (worked plenty well in the mono days). The folded version was just to conserve space and common to table radios, although too deep the box acts like a horn on mids.

Lows will bend around the baffle and interact with front of the speaker, but the size of the baffle influences what size wavelenths shift enough in travel to not cancel out. The floor itself acts as a baffle extension, and having just one dimension large enough (usually height) to shift the desired lowest frequency works well, as it negates the other dimension’s cancelling shortness. So they can actually have good low frequency response when done well.

As to the speakers, at one point in time speakers were speakers. They weren’t engineered for a flat response, commonly stiff suspension (work great for open baffles, usually best without the air spring in a sealed enclosure), accordian surrounds for excursion, and they had all kinds of distortion modes and breakups characteristics up and down the frequency range and at any volume. Leo fender pulled regular speakers off the shelf to make his first amps, and their poor design by modern hifi standards made them perfect to fill out and color the voice of a guitar. In fact regular woofers back then had high mid bumps that accentuated guitars, and roll offs that killed unpleasant high frequencies and low rumbles. They distorted, making the thin guitar output sound full.

Eventually hifi became a real science towards the 70’s, T/S parameters were introduced, and hifi speakers diverged. Guitar speakers retained those early designs, optimizing them to handle extremely high wattages. So vintage speakers are just fine for low wattage amplified instruments. Generally you want some headroom in the wattage to accomodate sustained musical tones, vs the occasional transients in music reproduction the wattage rating is generally meant for. Theile paramaters are only relevant to bass, which these 6” phillips speakers pleasantly roll off. The low mids are more of a sensitive area.

The 12” version of my speaker were actually used in a guitar cabinet, and fetch incredible prices on ebay. Mine are pulled from a poorly designed bookshelf enclosure, and the 6” isn’t valuable, but works great for my needs.

Anyways TL enclosure design is relevant to the depth of a folded baffle acting like a horn, so it helps immensely that you suggested that, thank you.
 
Last edited:
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
http://www.mh-audio.nl/ob.asp Also called a dipole speaker. Used very commonly up until the 60’s in hifi applications, so probably why its not “heard of”, But modern high end open baffle designs are around and theres plenty of people that enjoy diy’ing them. They’re simply just a baffle with no enclosure. Out of phase Highs and mids are directional and pointed away, so with proper positioning, they blend in nicely with the liveliness of a room. Although stereo imaging takes a hit (worked plenty well in the mono days). The folded version was just to conserve space and common to table radios, although too deep the box acts like a horn on mids.

Lows will bend around the baffle and interact with front of the speaker, but the size of the baffle influences what size wavelenths shift enough in travel to not cancel out. The floor itself acts as a baffle extension, and having just one dimension large enough (usually height) to shift the desired lowest frequency works well, as it negates the other dimension’s cancelling shortness. So they can actually have good low frequency response when done well.

As to the speakers, at one point in time speakers were speakers. They weren’t engineered for a flat response, commonly stiff suspension (work great for open baffles, usually best without the air spring in a sealed enclosure), accordian surrounds for excursion, and they had all kinds of distortion modes and breakups characteristics up and down the frequency range and at any volume. Leo fender pulled regular speakers off the shelf to make his first amps, and their poor design by modern hifi standards made them perfect to fill out and color the voice of a guitar. In fact regular woofers back then had high mid bumps that accentuated guitars, and roll offs that killed unpleasant high frequencies and low rumbles. They distorted, making the thin guitar output sound full.

Eventually hifi became a real science towards the 70’s, T/S parameters were introduced, and hifi speakers diverged. Guitar speakers retained those early designs, optimizing them to handle extremely high wattages. So vintage speakers are just fine for low wattage amplified instruments. Generally you want some headroom in the wattage to accomodate sustained musical tones, vs the occasional transients in music reproduction the wattage rating is generally meant for. Theile paramaters are only relevant to bass, which these 6” phillips speakers pleasantly roll off. The low mids are more of a sensitive area.

The 12” version of my speaker were actually used in a guitar cabinet, and fetch incredible prices on ebay. Mine are pulled from a poorly designed bookshelf enclosure, and the 6” isn’t valuable, but works great for my needs.

Anyways TL enclosure design is relevant to the depth of a folded baffle acting like a horn, so it helps immensely that you suggested that, thank you.
That is still an open box and the design is not critical. Just build it so it looks right.
 
A

Ant27

Audiophyte
That is still an open box and the design is not critical. Just build it so it looks right.
Yeah I probably am overthinking it. Its just the box happens to be deep, making a possible horn effect prominent. Luckily with a few extra keywords related to TL enclosures mentioned, I did figure out what those resonances would be.

A mix of around 600-900 hz, in the body of a guitar’s frequency range, away from the sensitive spots and perfectly in between the body ranges of other instruments. One particularly bright mini amp could use more body there. The front side has the usual guitar/vintage speaker frequency curve, with a whizzer adding a bump in the airy parts. That works perfectly for the other mini amp, which is warm and full on the low end, but dark on top. The whizzer “air” will help it sound defined while keeping the warmth on clean tones. Nothing touches the mud or earpick frequency ranges, so thats perfect.

Also the odd dimensions push any standing waves to more naturally color the tone. The box has a very thin speaker baffle and is made entirely out of tone woods, so its definitely an extension of the loudspeaker. Hifi design is important to know here, even though I’m going the opposite direction with that knowledge.
 
W

Winkleswizard

Audioholic
You have the right approach, and what you describe involves open baffle design. There is a lot more to an open baffle design than just slapping a driver in a box.

I highly recommend you check out work done by Linkwitz and others. One really good site for helping with a more comprehensive understanding is:

http://musicanddesign.com/tech.html

This site includes a design calculator for dipole speaker box design.

Enjoy!

Ww
 
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