Direct Mode: Harder on speakers?

[herbu]

Was listening to music yesterday, at pretty high volume, in Direct mode. My thought for the day occurred. Since Direct sets your speakers to Large, is it harder on your speakers, and thus less accurate?

I read over and over to set all speakers to Small, and let the subs handle the frequencies below your crossover... (80Hz in my case).
2 reasons:
(1) Subs can handle the low freqs better
(2) Mains work/sound better when not trying to reproduce the lows

Typically I use Stereo for low/normal volumes, and Direct for high volume. (That's what seems to sound best to me.)
I have my subs set to LFE+Main so I use them while in Direct.

My thought was that Direct at high volume is really pushing/stressing my Mains, because they are set to Large. (Aperion Verus Grand Towers)

So the purpose of Direct is to pass through the most accurate representation of your source, yet that accuracy suffers because your mains are trying to reproduce freqs below their capability. Am I thinking right? It seems the purpose of Direct, and the fact that it sets your mains to Large, are working against each other.

 

[PENG]

Was listening to music yesterday, at pretty high volume, in Direct mode. My thought for the day occurred. Since Direct sets your speakers to Large, is it harder on your speakers, and thus less accurate?

I read over and over to set all speakers to Small, and let the subs handle the frequencies below your crossover... (80Hz in my case).
2 reasons:
(1) Subs can handle the low freqs better
(2) Mains work/sound better when not trying to reproduce the lows

Typically I use Stereo for low/normal volumes, and Direct for high volume. (That's what seems to sound best to me.)
I have my subs set to LFE+Main so I use them while in Direct.

My thought was that Direct at high volume is really pushing/stressing my Mains, because they are set to Large. (Aperion Verus Grand Towers)

So the purpose of Direct is to pass through the most accurate representation of your source, yet that accuracy suffers because your mains are trying to reproduce freqs below their capability. Am I thinking right? It seems the purpose of Direct, and the fact that it sets your mains to Large, are working against each other.

I agree with you in general. I can't see for all AVRs but the ones I experienced so far has never reveal any difference between direct, pure direct and stereo with all EQ and DSP off so I think bass management is the only factor. Anyone who claim hearing better SQ between direct and pure direct cannot pass any volume match blind test, that's just my belief and YMMV.

 

[3db]

Pure Direct bypasses as much as possible, DSP and the room correction facilities. In doing that, it sets your mains to large. I run pure direct all the time when listening to 2-channel music and when the wife's not looking, I crank it into the high 80s which is plenty loud for my ears. Since I got my Yammy, my speakers at that volume never sounded strained, harsh, or compressed. I did notice with my previous receiver, a Technics SA-DX940, that the speakers started to compress in sound and get a little harsh so I quickly backed off the volume.

I would not look at Pure Direct mode as being more accurate or inaccurate. I look at it from the point of view as listening to my speakers with their in room response compared to listening to my speakers with their corrected in room response.

 

[herbu]

I agree with you in general. I can't see for all AVRs but the ones I experienced so far has never reveal any difference between direct, pure direct and stereo with all EQ and DSP off so I think bass management is the only factor. Anyone who claim hearing better SQ between direct and pure direct cannot pass any volume match blind test, that's just my belief and YMMV.

Thanks. I have never tried to turn off everything in Stereo and compare w/ Direct. So with my settings there is a difference between those 2 that anybody can notice. However I suspect the difference between Direct and Pure Direct is purely academic.

It just seems a bit ironic that the setting intended to give you the most unadulterated sound, is the one that is the most difficult for your Mains to produce.

If I had my druthers for loud music, it would be Direct to the Mains, but with my crossovers enabled to send everything below 80Hz to the subs. It seems this would yield the most true reproduction of the source... and I wouldn't have to think about over-driving my mains.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks. I have never tried to turn off everything in Stereo and compare w/ Direct. So with my settings there is a difference between those 2 that anybody can notice. However I suspect the difference between Direct and Pure Direct is purely academic.

It just seems a bit ironic that the setting intended to give you the most unadulterated sound, is the one that is the most difficult for your Mains to produce.

If I had my druthers for loud music, it would be Direct to the Mains, but with my crossovers enabled to send everything below 80Hz to the subs. It seems this would yield the most true reproduction of the source... and I wouldn't have to think about over-driving my mains.

It is not ironic.

When you play Direct you get rid of a crossover. This always brings some benefits and some losses, especially the latter, as you have found out. Crossovers are a necessary evil and difficult to bring off. The single speaker full range enthusiasts are not all wrong.

An LFE crossover is an off the shelf crossover. When we get posters wanting to build speakers, we tell them never to use an off the shelf crossover and for good reasons.

Now if your mains are ported then the LFE crossover is fundamentally wrong, and no amount of Aydyssey or any other program will put is right.

The only reason we get away with this at all is because we are all relatively tone deaf at 80 Hz. However as you have found out we are not completely tone deaf.

That is why I built an integrated full range main speakers from 20 Hz to 20 KHz to avoid these problems. If it is perfection you are after, then whether you have one box or two, all crossovers need to be custom. Your experience has provided further evidence for my point of view.

The system works well enough for movies, but not for serious music listening.

 

[rojo]

Sorry TLS Guy, but that sounds a little like audiophile mysticism. Sure, I agree 100% about off-the-shelf passive crossovers. But active crossovers are a different beast. An 80Hz high pass filter has a predictable shelf at 80Hz with a predictable slope below, regardless of whether the system uses ported, sealed, aperiodic, bandpass, whatever speakers. Suggesting that a pre-amp electronic crossover ought to be custom designed for the speakers used post-amp sounds about as beneficial as gold-plated silver-core power cables to me.

Sent from my LG-VS980 using Tapatalk

 

[TLS Guy]

Sorry TLS Guy, but that sounds a little like audiophile mysticism. Sure, I agree 100% about off-the-shelf passive crossovers. But active crossovers are a different beast. An 80Hz high pass filter has a predictable shelf at 80Hz with a predictable slope below, regardless of whether the system uses ported, sealed, aperiodic, bandpass, whatever speakers. Suggesting that a pre-amp electronic crossover ought to be custom designed for the speakers used post-amp sounds about as beneficial as gold-plated silver-core power cables to me.

Sent from my LG-VS980 using Tapatalk

The predictable shelf is the problem. Whether a crossover is active or passive, it still needs to be customized to the drivers.

Now a ported enclosure rolls off fourth order, couple that with the receiver high pass and and you have composite sixth order. The woofer rolls off fourth order low pass. And we have not even got to tailoring the crossover to the drivers involved.

Now sealed for mains and we get fourth order composite slopes either side of the crossover.

All of this comes out of THX labs, and they assumed wrongly that all mains and centers would be sealed, or have second order acoustic roll off.

Isberian has heard this system and was convinced of the importance of total integrated design. You can say what you like, but the current way of doing things is suboptimal.

 

[rojo]

That's a well-reasoned rebuttal. I don't agree, but I do better understand your point anyway. I believe the subwoofer(s) playing up to 80 Hz will thoroughly mask any sub-80 Hz sound from the mains, and will render any difference between 4th order and 6th order slope inaudible.

Sent from my LG-VS980 using Tapatalk

 

[TLS Guy]

That's a well-reasoned rebuttal. I don't agree, but I do better understand your point anyway. I believe the subwoofer(s) playing up to 80 Hz will thoroughly mask any sub-80 Hz sound from the mains, and will render any difference between 4th order and 6th order slope inaudible.

Sent from my LG-VS980 using Tapatalk

Actually you do hear it. It is not limited to the slopes, but also fine tuning the crossover to take care of the acoustic responses of the drivers.

I spent a lot of time and effort getting the low frequency crossovers perfect. Only with careful attention to detail, do you get the bass octaves just right, so it sounds totally realistic.

As you would expect using any drivers and standard crossovers does not get you there. It does not work here, for the same reasons it does not work anywhere else.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So the purpose of Direct is to pass through the most accurate representation of your source, yet that accuracy suffers because your mains are trying to reproduce freqs below their capability.

Good point. Why didn't I think of that first?

First of all, if it sounds great, then it is great no matter what. That's the endgame.

But if you don't think it sounds great, then you've got some things to figure out.

We've all heard that engineering is about compromise. Not that I'm an engineer (although my original major was engineering ), but I think that statement is very true. Speaker engineering is also about compromise. The less money, less build, less volume, less speaker you have, the more the compromise.

The most noticeable and significant difference to me is the both bass and the bass EQ. Not just one, but both.

If the bass in the speaker is adversely affecting the midrange and treble, then that compromise is unacceptable. Then I think you should limit the speaker to 80Hz, 90Hz, or 100Hz to 20kHz and let the subwoofer handle the bass.

But everyone has his own threshold. In the end, if it sounds great to you, then it is great. Only you can be the judge.

Based on my own experience and preference, I think the bass is best handled via the Subwoofer EQ and Subwoofer. Towers alone is not good enough for me personally, unless the towers can be actively bi-amped like the RBH and Induction Dynamics towers.

 

[rojo]

Not that I'm an engineer (although my original major was engineering )....

He changed majors when he realized engineering has nothing to do with driving trains. <grin> *evil grin* Sorry ADTG, couldn't resist.</grin>

 

[herbu]

Then I think you should limit the speaker to 80Hz, 90Hz, or 100Hz to 20kHz and let the subwoofer handle the bass.

And that is precisely my point. In Direct mode, you can't do that... I don't think.

So if one thinks loud music sounds best without all the AVR treatments, (as if in Direct), the only choice is to use Stereo, go into settings and turn off everything you can, but keep speakers set to Small. Then when you turn down the volume and need the AVR treatments, go back into settings and turn stuff back on. Right?

It's not really a problem for me, since my "loud" music listening seems to be within the capabilities of my speakers, even set to Large. So I can use Direct for loud, Stereo for normal/soft listening.

I'm just a bit befuddled that the best way to listen to loud music, (Direct IMO), is also the best way to overdrive your unprotected, ("large"), speakers.

The most noticeable and significant difference to me is the both bass and the bass EQ. Not just one, but both.

This means you DO stay in Stereo mode, and just turn off the Audyssey/AVR treatments you don't want. Right?

 

[PENG]

This means you DO stay in Stereo mode, and just turn off the Audyssey/AVR treatments you don't want. Right?

I think he has to stay in Stereo mode more often now because he likes DEQ even when listening to music. He is a bass head, remember?

 

[markw]

This is a double edged sowrd and a lot depends on your particular speakers.

I run little Athena AS-F1's full range (8" 2 way) and they have survived quite well for about 12 years so far. The reason being that most speakers, unless they are forced to try to play lower and louder than they are designed for (can we say "eq, kiddies?) they generally will politely roll off to inaudiability below their stated lower limit. Mine do, and so did my Maggie 1.6s before that (don't ask - long story).

If you lose the sub in the direct mode, as long as you are content with the sound and don't go trying to force the speakers to do more than they were designed for, you should be fine.

I'm unclear: did you say that your sub is still active in the direct mode? If so, that's unusual and nothing but a bonus IMNSHO if you like that additional bass.

 

[PENG]

I'm unclear: did you say that your sub is still active in the direct mode? If so, that's unusual and nothing but a bonus IMNSHO if you like that additional bass.

If he uses the LFE+Main, the sub could be active in Direct mode. IMO stereo could be better because bass management would then still be in effect with Audyssey engaged. In that scenario L/R could be set to bypass if one prefers to have Audyssey manage the sub.

 

[herbu]

I'm unclear: did you say that your sub is still active in the direct mode? If so, that's unusual and nothing but a bonus IMNSHO if you like that additional bass.

Right... and PENG is right.
I have the subs set to "LFE+Main", so even in Direct mode, my subs are still active. I like.
(In addition, I'm experimenting with "L/R Bypass" in Audyssey. Had it this way for a couple weeks. Not sure I'm noticing a difference.)

Sounds like maybe this is a non-issue.
Maybe, "Yes, in Direct mode your L/R get everything, even freqs below your crossover setting and below the level your speakers can produce, but it is unlikely to mean any audible distortion or problem".

But if that is true, why the strong recommendations from EVERYBODY to set your speakers to Small and use your crossover settings?
If Large speakers are nothing to be concerned about in Direct, why such concern in Stereo?

 

[PENG]

But if that is true, why the strong recommendations from EVERYBODY to set your speakers to Small and use your crossover settings?
If Large speakers are nothing to be concerned about in Direct, why such concern in Stereo?

If your speakers can handle low bass well, can take much more power than you need, and you amp can output undistorted power also much more than you need then there is no concern. Otherwise I would still say it is better to let the sub take care of the bass for you so your speakers and amps will have easier time.

Just because the speakers are sensed by your AVR/prepro as "large", does not mean they can handle much more power and bass than you need.

 

[fuzz092888]

I'm unclear: did you say that your sub is still active in the direct mode? If so, that's unusual and nothing but a bonus IMNSHO if you like that additional bass.

A little OT, but I know with my Marantz direct and pure modes are different in a few ways. Pure shuts off the display and some other stuff, but the more important difference IMHO is that with direct mode you can specify whether you want direct to include the subs or not. That's without LFE + main for the record.

 

[markw]

I think that "everybody" is a bit of a misnomer.

But if that is true, why the strong recommendations from EVERYBODY to set your speakers to Small and use your crossover settings?
If Large speakers are nothing to be concerned about in Direct, why such concern in Stereo?

Because it's assumed that what works for one set of circumstances is always right for all. I don't have 'em set to small and, as far as I'm concerned, the sound is just fine. I set 'em to full range and the sub kicks in right about where the mains drop off to oblivion, a little below 80 hz.

I know at least one other person here who went that route after hearing my system.

But, you'll never know until you try it.

Caveat: I don't have audassy or any other room correction software so that may or may not make a difference.

 

[herbu]

Otherwise I would still say it is better to let the sub take care of the bass for you so your speakers and amps will have easier time.

And that means DO NOT USE Direct mode.

So if your equipment and preferences dictate setting your speakers to Small, you should not use Direct mode?

That is the point/question of this thread. I hear a lot, (OK, Mark... maybe not everybody... ), about setting speakers to Small and how it relieves some work/stress from your drivers so they can more easily/accurately perform above your crossover. But I have never seen any similar comment/warning about how Direct may be harder for your speakers to produce. In fact, I hear the opposite, that Direct is unpolluted and accurate.

It seems that although the Direct input is unpolluted and accurate, the sound out of the speakers may not be so IF it is true that your speakers perform better w/o trying to produce the low bass.

This is an academic question as I will listen to what I think sounds best. It just seems odd that I have never seen this mentioned or discussed.