Direct Mode: Harder on speakers?

[3db]

And that means DO NOT USE Direct mode.

So if your equipment and preferences dictate setting your speakers to Small, you should not use Direct mode?

That is the point/question of this thread. I hear a lot, (OK, Mark... maybe not everybody... ), about setting speakers to Small and how it relieves some work/stress from your drivers so they can more easily/accurately perform above your crossover. But I have never seen any similar comment/warning about how Direct may be harder for your speakers to produce. In fact, I hear the opposite, that Direct is unpolluted and accurate.

It seems that although the Direct input is unpolluted and accurate, the sound out of the speakers may not be so IF it is true that your speakers perform better w/o trying to produce the low bass.

This is an academic question as I will listen to what I think sounds best. It just seems odd that I have never seen this mentioned or discussed.

It is an academic question only. My speakers when driven full range without the sub sound great for 2 channel mode and can comfortably produce music out there without distortion. Good speakers are designed so that they roll off the really deep bass so they remain unaffected by it.

 

[JonnyFive23517]

I heard the Salk HT2-TL, an MTM transmission line design, with/without crossover to a subwoofer. The music was a bit cleaner with the bass crossed over at 80hz, playing loud. This is understandable, given the woofers were trying to do so much in reproducing bass at loud volumes.

I own Salk Soundscape 8s, a 3-way WWMT design with passive radiators. Due to the dedicated mid-driver, crossing over to a sub will affect only the frequencies sent to the woofers. I have found no benefit to crossing over to a subwoofer, given my amplifier is not running out of juice to power the bass section (Halo A21). The towers are luckily located in positions that are great for bass. Were they located somewhere that caused a bass null, then perhaps I'd cross them over to a subwoofer.

Crossing them over turns a 3 way design into a 4 way design, with the S/W crossover being done by the pre-pro. In my experiments, I've found the bass is less cohesive when I cross them over.

As 3db said, your speaker should be designed to roll off in such a way to prevent damage to the drivers.

So I think the right answer is: "It depends on your situation."

 

[herbu]

It is an academic question only. My speakers when driven full range without the sub sound great for 2 channel mode and can comfortably produce music out there without distortion. Good speakers are designed so that they roll off the really deep bass so they remain unaffected by it.

OK, thanks. I won't worry about it. I do prefer Direct, (with the subs), for loud music. And the Aperion Verus Grand Towers seem to have no trouble. So no harm, no foul. As long as it sounds good, I'll be happy and don't worry.

 

[lsiberian]

OK, thanks. I won't worry about it. I do prefer Direct, (with the subs), for loud music. And the Aperion Verus Grand Towers seem to have no trouble. So no harm, no foul. As long as it sounds good, I'll be happy and don't worry.

You have a ported speaker so I don't doubt it sounds better without the nasty receiver crossover. TLS is spot on with his analysis of the issues with using ported speakers as mains in home listening. For truly great bass integration you must carefully integrate a main with a subwoofer. This is much easier with a sealed main, but not impossible with a ported main.

FWIW if you love great audio you must hear TLS's system it is truly extraordinary.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

And that is precisely my point. In Direct mode, you can't do that... I don't think.

So if one thinks loud music sounds best without all the AVR treatments, (as if in Direct), the only choice is to use Stereo, go into settings and turn off everything you can, but keep speakers set to Small. Then when you turn down the volume and need the AVR treatments, go back into settings and turn stuff back on. Right?

It's not really a problem for me, since my "loud" music listening seems to be within the capabilities of my speakers, even set to Large. So I can use Direct for loud, Stereo for normal/soft listening.

I'm just a bit befuddled that the best way to listen to loud music, (Direct IMO), is also the best way to overdrive your unprotected, ("large"), speakers.


This means you DO stay in Stereo mode, and just turn off the Audyssey/AVR treatments you don't want. Right?

I think he has to stay in Stereo mode more often now because he likes DEQ even when listening to music. He is a bass head, remember?

That's right. I never use Direct mode anymore because I think DEQ sounds so much better than Direct mode. We must use whichever sounds best, right? If that means Stereo 2.1 mode, then use it.

 

[PENG]

I don't think it is just academic, it really depends on one's equipment. The crossover networks in speakers are not brick walls. Take a look of the impedance vs frequency of even small speakers you will see that while they roll off in terms of frequency response, they do draw currents down to the low frequencies. If you use them within their limits you are fine. If you push them hard then crossing over to subs bound to help. Again, it depends.. Ask ADTG if he uses subs with some of his not too inexpensive speakers.

 

[TLS Guy]

You have a ported speaker so I don't doubt it sounds better without the nasty receiver crossover. TLS is spot on with his analysis of the issues with using ported speakers as mains in home listening. For truly great bass integration you must carefully integrate a main with a subwoofer. This is much easier with a sealed main, but not impossible with a ported main.

FWIW if you love great audio you must hear TLS's system it is truly extraordinary.

Thank you for that. In my view the mains at least should be set to large where possible. The problem in a forum like this is that we don't really know the capability of most of the speakers, so we err on the side of caution, less we encourage a member to blow a speaker.

My advice and the advice of most UK speaker manufacturers, including B & W is to set the mains at least to large, and set the LFE crossover at the F3 of the mains. That is likely to lead to the best integration in most circumstances. Set the speaker to main + LFE. If the bass is lean set LFE to F3 + 50%. That is a good way to experiment.

 

[PENG]

We must use whichever sounds best, right? If that means Stereo 2.1 mode, then use it.

That's easy to agree. In other words, if one's system sounds better in Direct and/or Pure Direct then use them too.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't think it is just academic, it really depends on one's equipment. The crossover networks in speakers are not brick walls. Take a look of the impedance vs frequency of even small speakers you will see that while they roll off in terms of frequency response, they do draw currents down to the low frequencies. If you use them within their limits you are fine. If you push them hard then crossing over to subs bound to help. Again, it depends.. Ask ADTG if he uses subs with some of his not too inexpensive speakers.

Yes, for me, when compared to Sub DEQ, Direct mode 2.0 using even Salon2 (F3 = 23Hz) does not sound punchy and dynamic enough for me no matter how loud I turn up the volume. If the Salon2 allows active bi-amp of the trio 8" woofer via LFE, I could use Sub DEQ. But most towers are not designed like that. So it depends on one's equipment and preference.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's easy to agree. In other words, if one's system sounds better in Direct and/or Pure Direct then use them too.

Yup. Personal preference and type of equipment.

 

[herbu]

In my view the mains at least should be set to large where possible. The problem in a forum like this is that we don't really know the capability of most of the speakers, so we err on the side of caution, less we encourage a member to blow a speaker.

My advice and the advice of most UK speaker manufacturers, including B & W is to set the mains at least to large, and set the LFE crossover at the F3 of the mains.

Thanks... I'll play with that.
At one time I started hearing a clicking sound during explosions. I thought it was my towers, called Aperion, and they recommended "Small" and 80Hz crossover. I did that. Didn't work. Finally figured out it was the sub, not the towers. Turned on sub limiter and problem was fixed, but I left the mains Small and 80Hz.

Think I'll play around w/ it some. Looks like F3 is ~60Hz. I'll make 'em Large and 60Hz, and see how that sounds. Since I have the same towers for L/R surrounds, I'll change them too... see if it makes any difference in TV/Movies. I guess it'll be safe if I pay attention, and change setting at the first indication of clipping or over driving... right?

Thanks so much, guys!!!

 

[cpp]

Direct mode in my system didn't seem to bother my Denon or my speakers.

 

[Steve81]

But if that is true, why the strong recommendations from EVERYBODY to set your speakers to Small and use your crossover settings?
If Large speakers are nothing to be concerned about in Direct, why such concern in Stereo?

There are several potential advantages to utilizing bass management, though as has been mentioned, there's not one perfect setting that will work for all. As you've hit on, bass management reduces the stress on your mains (and your amplifier), which is always a bonus. Beyond that, there's:

1. Consistency: having two (or five) full range speakers at different points in the room means two (or five) very different responses. This also plays into:
2. Smoother response: using multiple subwoofers (vs a single tower for any given channel) allows for a smoother in room response as well as superior seat to seat consistency.
3. Better tool for the job: there's 0 doubt in my mind that your subwoofers can play lower, louder, and with less distortion than your mains. It's what they're designed to do.

Personally I never use direct mode in the main system, though I prefer to use higher XO at 120Hz (more than an octave above my mains F3) combined with a symmetrical 24dB/octave filter on the sub and speakers. Sounds pretty good to my ears.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Thanks... I'll play with that.
At one time I started hearing a clicking sound during explosions. I thought it was my towers, called Aperion, and they recommended "Small" and 80Hz crossover. I did that. Didn't work. Finally figured out it was the sub, not the towers. Turned on sub limiter and problem was fixed, but I left the mains Small and 80Hz.


Think I'll play around w/ it some. Looks like F3 is ~60Hz. I'll make 'em Large and 60Hz, and see how that sounds. Since I have the same towers for L/R surrounds, I'll change them too... see if it makes any difference in TV/Movies. I guess it'll be safe if I pay attention, and change setting at the first indication of clipping or over driving... right?


Thanks so much, guys!!!

As long as you have the limiter of the sub on, it should be good.

You can try speaker Large and 60Hz, but the limiter still needs to be on.

That's another topic - limiters. Why use an amp that is too powerful for the driver in the first place and requires a limiter?

Why don't they just use an amp that does not exceed the physical and thermal limit?

 

[3db]

Direct mode in my system didn't seem to bother my Denon or my speakers.

The same with my setup. It rocks loud n clear.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Personally I never use direct mode in the main system, though I prefer to use higher XO at 120Hz (more than an octave above my mains F3) combined with a symmetrical 24dB/octave filter on the sub and speakers. Sounds pretty good to my ears.

I think I use 120Hz for my XO also. I never use Direct mode anymore either.

 

[Josuah]

That's another topic - limiters. Why use an amp that is too powerful for the driver in the first place and requires a limiter?

Why don't they just use an amp that does not exceed the physical and thermal limit?

I don't follow your question. An amp limiter is in place to react to the input signal. If you pick an amp that doesn't exceed the limits of your speaker then it probably has a lower limit which means it is more likely to require a limiter. If you pick an amp that can output an insane amount much greater than could possibly result given a consumer line-level input signal then you won't need a limiter but can easily overdrive your speakers.

As for the original question, I use pure direct but only after the signal goes through a high-pass crossover.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't follow your question. An amp limiter is in place to react to the input signal. If you pick an amp that doesn't exceed the limits of your speaker then it probably has a lower limit which means it is more likely to require a limiter. If you pick an amp that can output an insane amount much greater than could possibly result given a consumer line-level input signal then you won't need a limiter but can easily overdrive your speakers.

I thought the purpose of a peak limiter is to prevent too much power from reaching your speaker, bottoming out the speaker, and damaging the speaker physically and thermally.

If you use an amp that is below the max rated power of the speaker, then you don't need a limiter because the amp will not blow the speaker.

For example, say the max rated power of your speaker is 500W, but the amp is 2000W. Your peak limiter is set to limit the peak power to 400W. This means even if the Input signal calls for 2000W, the signal is then Compressed and only a max of 400W will ever reach the speaker.

But in this example, if the amp is only 400W to begin with, it will not damage or bottom out the speaker. Clipping does not damage the speakers. That is a myth. Too much power damages the speakers.

 

[herbu]

That's another topic - limiters. Why use an amp that is too powerful for the driver in the first place and requires a limiter?

Why don't they just use an amp that does not exceed the physical and thermal limit?

I had exactly the same thought. The sub is a Rythmik FV15HP. In fact, when I was deciding which 2nd sub to get, that thought is primarily what pushed me to the SVS PB13U.

I run enough volume in action movies to shake the floor and rattle the windows, BUT I don't think I'm pushing the sub beyond what it should be designed for. During the PB13U setup, I don't recall seeing a "limiter" option. My pedestrian conclusion is that the amp and driver are better matched. Maybe I'm wrong. I was once.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I had exactly the same thought. The sub is a Rythmik FV15HP. In fact, when I was deciding which 2nd sub to get, that thought is primarily what pushed me to the SVS PB13U.

I run enough volume in action movies to shake the floor and rattle the windows, BUT I don't think I'm pushing the sub beyond what it should be designed for. During the PB13U setup, I don't recall seeing a "limiter" option. My pedestrian conclusion is that the amp and driver are better matched. Maybe I'm wrong. I was once.

Perhaps neither one of us really get this "peak limiter" function, although it seems easy enough.

But to me, it's like a band-aid job. 20 years ago I had a NHT 10" subwoofer that rocked my room. It only had an 80Watt amp. Although it shook my room like a rag doll and sounded great, it never bottomed out once. There was no limiter on the subwoofer amp. That's because the 80W was way below the max power rating of the subwoofer.