Diminishing returns?

Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Senior Audioholic
I understand that, however most speakers are not going to be played used at such high volume levels, continuously, so I just don't see why they are needed, especially since we are discussing the point of diminishing returns. Now with that said, if one has the disposable income in addition to "champagne wishes and caviar dreams" :) , they might not represent a point of diminishing returns.
See and I disagree with that characterization.

First, I disagree that a term like diminishing returns must restrict output. Second, I disagree with any characterization that wanting high output is a luxury. Why? I think exotic wood veneers, high gloss paint finishes, that is luxury. Beryllium tweeters with gold accents, that is luxury. Performance isn't luxury. To me this is akin to suggesting a corvette is a luxury car because its fast. A Ferrari is the right comparison to Champagne wishes and caviar dreams. The Corvette is the poor mans Ferrari, offering similar or better performance, minus the luxury, leading to diminishing returns. A Honda Accord is not the point of diminishing returns, it's not fast.

To say that speakers aren't played that loud so why, says who? How loud a speaker plays depends on the individual and the size of their room. In my room and listening distance (which is not that large), no standard speakers can come even close to hitting THX reference levels. In fact, the vast majority fall about 6-12dB short, which for me, is far too much. Those that can, such as Klipsch, make too many compromises in sound quality. For me, these are not a point of diminishing returns. They are still well down on the performance meter.

But diminishing returns is a subjective concept here. It is all about one values. If you listen at background levels with low dynamic range content, then dynamic range of a system is unimportant and diminishing returns is hit at a very different level. That is not me.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Below is the hearing loss ad I see every time I log onto Audioholics. They are looking for patients who enjoy audio. :p

View attachment 38011
I had a conversation with my girlfriend about sloths! This was intentionally an obscure topic because a trainer from the FBI had talked about how phones listen to our conversations and that info is used to target marketing. He suggested that we pick a topic that was otherwise not part of our lives and see. So she sat her phone on the table and we had fun discussing and making up crap about sloths for about 15 minutes. My phone was not in the room. Later that day, when she logged into Facebook, an advertisement for a sloth park in Costa Rica popped up!
Her phone is an Apple, but I'd be an idiot to believe my Android would not do the same!
So have you been texting, typing, or talking about hearing loss?

PS - my ad in that location and at the bottom of the page is for Omaha Steaks. I guess they are aware of when I (not me specifically, but my "identity" gets clumped in with others that did the same) placed an order and they figure the time lapse is about right that I should be ready to buy more steak!

This is the world we live in!
 
John Parks

John Parks

Audioholic General
I had a conversation with my girlfriend about sloths! This was intentionally an obscure topic because a trainer from the FBI had talked about how phones listen to our conversations and that info is used to target marketing. He suggested that we pick a topic that was otherwise not part of our lives and see. So she sat her phone on the table and we had fun discussing and making up crap about sloths for about 15 minutes. My phone was not in the room. Later that day, when she logged into Facebook, an advertisement for a sloth park in Costa Rica popped up!
Her phone is an Apple, but I'd be an idiot to believe my Android would not do the same!
So have you been texting, typing, or talking about hearing loss?

PS - my ad in that location and at the bottom of the page is for Omaha Steaks. I guess they are aware of when I (not me specifically, but my "identity" gets clumped in with others that did the same) placed an order and they figure the time lapse is about right that I should be ready to buy more steak!

This is the world we live in!
This is my ad ATM:
1595007526848.png

Yes, I would like another one, but it won't fit!

Whenever I get on the FB ("Drop the 'The'") my ads are for shoes (guilty) and true wireless earphones (guilty again, but I bought my pair a while back). I'll try the sloth thing this weekend with my girls - should be fun!
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
You cannot have a speaker that has high output and measures well for cheap, that will cost a lot. Outside of the DIY world there aren't many options, but of commercial options, you are looking at $5000+.
Could you list a couple or more DIY kits (or designs, or whatever) that would meet this criteria?
If not, no worries, but I have to ask!
 
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Senior Audioholic
I had a conversation with my girlfriend about sloths! This was intentionally an obscure topic because a trainer from the FBI had talked about how phones listen to our conversations and that info is used to target marketing. He suggested that we pick a topic that was otherwise not part of our lives and see. So she sat her phone on the table and we had fun discussing and making up crap about sloths for about 15 minutes. My phone was not in the room. Later that day, when she logged into Facebook, an advertisement for a sloth park in Costa Rica popped up!
Her phone is an Apple, but I'd be an idiot to believe my Android would not do the same!
So have you been texting, typing, or talking about hearing loss?

PS - my ad in that location and at the bottom of the page is for Omaha Steaks. I guess they are aware of when I (not me specifically, but my "identity" gets clumped in with others that did the same) placed an order and they figure the time lapse is about right that I should be ready to buy more steak!

This is the world we live in!
Apple claims that they do not collect or share any data for marketing on their phones. Their privacy statement makes that clear. If this happened on an Apple phone then one of her apps did it, not iOS. If the app did it, it’s possibly in violation of apples requirements as well. They do not allow apps to Do that anymore. Amazon Alexa openly does this however as does the google assistant.

I manage data security on high security human subjects research projects (as one of my many hats I wear in research). I work directly with these companies around our security requirements which we rely on in our statements to IRB and the federal sponsors. It would be a serious security breach for us if Apple lied and allowed their OS to collect any data like this on these devices. We buy the devices direct through an Apple business account but the devices and iOS are the same as you would use.

my guess is that something else was listening in to your conversation or your girlfriend looked up sloths.

now as for that ad, I hope people by now understand that we have Adsense on, like everyone else in the world, and that we cannot control the ads that pop up. If you see an ad from a company like RBH, we do that. if you see an ad for hearing loss or anything not specific to these kinds of audio companies, that is all google.

you can actually turn that off if you don’t like being tracked. It’s part of the google account features. You turn off cookies on your computer and then go into google and turn off it’s tracking features. You may also need to clear your history through google from time to time. I forget the name google uses for all this, but we do it on high security work computers as a precaution. It can reduce the likelihood a bad actor could get information they might use in a social engineering phishing attack.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
I don't see ads on Audioholics.....what did I do right? :)
 
VMPS-TIII

VMPS-TIII

Full Audioholic
So have you been texting, typing, or talking about hearing loss?
That's some scary big brother sh-t. :)
I am one of the few people on earth that still does not own a cell phone.
Now I know why that was a great decision.
 
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Senior Audioholic
Could you list a couple or more DIY kits (or designs, or whatever) that would meet this criteria?
If not, no worries, but I have to ask!

This is probably the closest kit to my ideal. I don't agree with the prevailing view of the SEOS waveguide generally, but that doesn't stop this from being a nice speaker. I think if budget were no object, an even better crossover would benefit this speaker. It still is better, in my opinion, than most speakers on the market.

The JTR's have a more complex and in my opinion, better crossover. The JTR also has better drivers, but better doesn't mean better measuring in this case, just more expensive (but also lower in distortion). The speaker drivers used in the DIYSG kit are some of the best you can buy at a good price with very low distortion.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
That's some scary big brother sh-t. :)
I am one of the few people on earth that still does not own a cell phone.
Now I know why that was a great decision.
How about a smart tv? Various devices listen, not just phones :) I don't want that stuff either but I do have a smart phone....but did for years just use a flip cell phone :)
 
VMPS-TIII

VMPS-TIII

Full Audioholic
How about a smart tv? Various devices listen, not just phones :) I don't want that stuff either but I do have a smart phone....but did for years just use a flip cell phone :)
I disable all voice features on the TV and any other device that offers voice command as an option. No one needs Alexa listening to their every word. I would never buy one of those stupid pucks.

My 1st cell phone was the Motorola brick. I found the only one calling was the wife wondering where I was or asking me to pick ups this or that. Phone was stolen out of my car 28 years ago and I never used one since. :cool:

Silence is a blessing!
 
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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
I disable all voice features on the TV and any other device that offers voice command as an option. No one needs Alexa listening to their every word. I would never buy one of those stupid pucks.

My 1st cell phone was the Motorola brick. I found the only one calling was the wife wondering where I was or asking me to pick ups this or that. Phone was stolen out of my car 28 years ago and I never used one since. :cool:

Silence is a blessing!
Just because you disabled it doesn't mean they're still not listening.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
I disable all voice features on the TV and any other device that offers voice command as an option. No one needs Alexa listening to their every word. I would never buy one of those stupid pucks.

My 1st cell phone was the Motorola brick. I found the only one calling was the wife wondering where I was or asking me to pick ups this or that. Phone was stolen out of my car 28 years ago and I never used one since. :cool:

Silence is a blessing!
Yes, having some silence is a good thing. I've lived in places with no cell phone reception, I always viewed that as somewhat a bonus :)
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Ninja
Yes, having some silence is a good thing. I've lived in places with no cell phone reception, I always viewed that as somewhat a bonus :)
Just keep your fking cell off for a while and you will have peace! My cell phone is off most of the time. I only use it when I'm out and need to use it or for any emergency. I usually use a landline phone at home and I filter calls with the ID caller feature.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Just keep your fking cell off for a while and you will have peace! My cell phone is off most of the time. I only use it when I'm out and need to use it or for any emergency.
Oh I've been known to do that....but it's extra nice when no one around you can use one either :)
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
Well, getting all the attributes of a good speaker costs a lot of money.

You can have a speaker that measures really well. Has a really flat response and good directivity, but not a lot of bass extension or output. That can be had for relatively cheap, say $500-$600 a pair on up.

You can have a speaker that has high output but does nothing else well, again, that can be cheap. In fact, any PA speaker meets that criteria.

You cannot have a speaker that has high output and measures well for cheap, that will cost a lot. Outside of the DIY world there aren't many options, but of commercial options, you are looking at $5000+.
Don’t worry Matt. A55 should just turn in his AV card. Everything is the devil, and should be free. Conspiracy theories everywhere to take consumers money with absolutely no return. He has no useful input here. Should be banned.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic Chief
See and I disagree with that characterization.

First, I disagree that a term like diminishing returns must restrict output. Second, I disagree with any characterization that wanting high output is a luxury. Why? I think exotic wood veneers, high gloss paint finishes, that is luxury. Beryllium tweeters with gold accents, that is luxury. Performance isn't luxury. To me this is akin to suggesting a corvette is a luxury car because its fast. A Ferrari is the right comparison to Champagne wishes and caviar dreams. The Corvette is the poor mans Ferrari, offering similar or better performance, minus the luxury, leading to diminishing returns. A Honda Accord is not the point of diminishing returns, it's not fast.

To say that speakers aren't played that loud so why, says who? How loud a speaker plays depends on the individual and the size of their room. In my room and listening distance (which is not that large), no standard speakers can come even close to hitting THX reference levels. In fact, the vast majority fall about 6-12dB short, which for me, is far too much. Those that can, such as Klipsch, make too many compromises in sound quality. For me, these are not a point of diminishing returns. They are still well down on the performance meter.

But diminishing returns is a subjective concept here. It is all about one values. If you listen at background levels with low dynamic range content, then dynamic range of a system is unimportant and diminishing returns is hit at a very different level. That is not me.
I was trying to be a bit facetious with the Champagne wishes and cavier dreams. However it is true though that some folks like to indulge in what they deem as the finer things in life, that includes clothing, cars, wine and yes audio gear.

I do agree that performance isn't a luxury, however it can become a luxury if the performance is not really needed. F
 
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Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic Chief
Don’t worry Matt. A55 should just turn in his AV card. Everything is the devil, and should be free. Conspiracy theories everywhere to take consumers money with absolutely no return. He has no useful input here. Should be banned.
What is useful input, agreeing with William?
 
VMPS-TIII

VMPS-TIII

Full Audioholic
Diminishing returns? Show me your passion and I'll show you various markers for diminishing returns.
 

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