Diminishing returns?

Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
that’s a pretty broad and general statement. 105dB peaks for the average person isn’t likely to do any long term harm (or short term harm). The music would generally only peak at those levels for very brief moments at a time. Hearing damage is most associated with the total dosage received, at least up to a point. Instantaneous damage isn’t usually seen until 120dB or more (and the frequency matters quite a bit, bass really doesn’t cause instantaneous damage at those levels).

we did a video on hearing loss and the dangerous of commercial cinema levels. The first myth I dispelled was that hearing loss was assisted with loud levels like we are talking here. That it’s actually about total exposure over the course of a day. That 85dB causes long term hearing loss if that is your total average daily dose all day long. Yet 105 won’t cause damage if most of your day is at or below 65dB and the 105 dB was for just a second or two.

As part of that I did a dosage study. Two in fact. One was for an actual ATMOS music at a Dolby cinema. The other was for a day in the life of Matt. In both cases you could see how some people could exceed their daily dosage if they did a lot of noisy things. In my case, most of my day was spent in relative silence such that music listening and movies put me just below the limit as I recall. I intentionally made that day a noisier day for me by watching an action movie at reference levels and listening to music while I worked.

that is all to say that listening at reference levels is not inherently dangerous. None of the levels achieved over the course of 2-3 hours would be sufficient, even in the context of average normal loudness throughout the rest of the day, to cause permanent hearing loss. Further, it’s worth noting that while I advocate for taking care of your ears, I could find no studies that shows cinemas had in fact caused actual hearing loss and I similarly found no evidence that people exposed to dangerously loud levels (like symphony performers) had higher rates of noise induced hearing loss. The studies that did show causes of NIHL were typically for rock musicians and manufacturing jobs where exposure was to levels found to exceed 120dB on a routine basis.

now as for why I like a speaker capable of high output. Keep in mind that, besides the fact that a speaker that is distorting is very distracting, a distorting speaker also has higher total energy output due to the harmonics.


Rise in THD also reduced speech quality and intelligibility.

this is why i advocate for higher output in speakers. Many have argued that a normal receiver and average speakers exceed any reasonable peak level but this is based on nothing more than conjecture. The reality is most speakers fall way short of reference levels and begin distorting at pretty modest levels. Many people perceive distortion and compression as a hearing issue. If it’s painful it’s dangerous. In many cases the pain and poor sound is actually a function of the distortion and compression of the low output speaker. A cleaner speaker would be listened to louder without discomfort.
If I understand you correctly, those type of speakers (higher output) typically cost a lot of money.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
If you are listening to music, especially lots of today's music, its going to be continuously loud.
I know what you mean but I can't resist writing: That's what the volume knob is for.

I'll show myself out the door, thank you.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
If I understand you correctly, those type of speakers (higher output) typically cost a lot of money.
Well yes. That usually goes without sayng. As a general rule, cheap speakers aren't going to hit high spl cleanly.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
Well yes. That usually goes without sayng. As a general rule, cheap speakers aren't going to hit high spl cleanly.
I understand that, however most speakers are not going to be played used at such high volume levels, continuously, so I just don't see why they are needed, especially since we are discussing the point of diminishing returns. Now with that said, if one has the disposable income in addition to "champagne wishes and caviar dreams" :) , they might not represent a point of diminishing returns.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I understand that, however most speakers are not going to be played used at such high volume levels, continuously, so I just don't see why they are needed, especially since we are discussing the point of diminishing returns. Now with that said, if one has the disposable income in addition to "champagne wishes and caviar dreams" :) , they might not represent a point of diminishing returns.
Depends on your goals and budget, sure. If you don't think you'll ever listen at higher than say, 75 dB then you have different goals. You asked for Matt's reasoning and he gave it.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
I understand that, however most speakers are not going to be played used at such high volume levels, continuously, so I just don't see why they are needed, especially since we are discussing the point of diminishing returns. Now with that said, if one has the disposable income in addition to "champagne wishes and caviar dreams" :) , they might not represent a point of diminishing returns.
Actually JTR and a few others are a lot more reachable then companies that traditionallu offer this type of speaker

It's pretty cool how we have more affordable options these days

Now mind you there not low budget but there also not crazy expensive a speaker either
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
yes and no. JTR is probably the best value available in a speaker that mostly meets my requirements.i think the OS waveguide measures better and this achieved a better response and cleaner DI. Having said that, I reviewed the JTR 212rt next to my abbey and the differences were slight. Once I fixed the tonal balance on the JTR to match my Abby, I found them mostly hard to distinguish.
Do you mind me asking what you did to correct the tonal balance ? I'm just a) wanting to learn and b) very curious on that particalar speaker in my theater room as my end game speaker down the road

Learning about there product and things you did to work with the product really helps
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
Depends on your goals and budget, sure. If you don't think you'll ever listen at higher than say, 75 dB then you have different goals. You asked for Matt's reasoning and he gave it.
I don't believe I was asking for his reasoning, I understood them for the start. Again, I must remind you we are discussing this issue in context of the subject of diminishing returns. It could be that you are correct, that diminishing return is relative. For example, if 99% of my listening will not exceed 75 db's clean, it would be superfluous to spend extra money on speakers to play clean at 100 decibels.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
I don't believe I was asking for his reasoning, I understood them for the start. Again, I must remind you we are discussing this issue in context of the subject of diminishing returns. It could be that you are correct, that diminishing return is relative. For example, if 99% of my listening will not exceed 75 db's clean, it would be superfluous to spend extra money on speakers to play clean at 100 decibels.
Depends on the dynamic range of the music you listen to, though.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
Depends on the dynamic range of the music you listen to, though.
According to some, there's a great loss of dynamic range in most of the music being produced today.

Noise SourceDecibel Level (dB)How long can you listen without protection?
Jet take off1300 minutes
Ambulance siren109Less than 2 minutes
Personal music player at maximum volume1063.75 minutes
Pop/Rock concert1037.5 minutes
Riding a motorcycle9730 minutes
Using an electric drill941 hour
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
According to some, there's a great loss of dynamic range in most of the music being produced today.

Noise SourceDecibel Level (dB)How long can you listen without protection?
Jet take off1300 minutes
Ambulance siren109Less than 2 minutes
Personal music player at maximum volume1063.75 minutes
Pop/Rock concert1037.5 minutes
Riding a motorcycle9730 minutes
Using an electric drill941 hour
Yeah, true enough for most (?) popular music released for decades, but in classical and jazz you'll find recordings with a large dynamic range where I for one does not want distortion due to speakers not handling it (within reason) .
 
NINaudio

NINaudio

Audioholic Samurai
According to some, there's a great loss of dynamic range in most of the music being produced today.

Noise SourceDecibel Level (dB)How long can you listen without protection?
Jet take off1300 minutes
Ambulance siren109Less than 2 minutes
Personal music player at maximum volume1063.75 minutes
Pop/Rock concert1037.5 minutes
Riding a motorcycle9730 minutes
Using an electric drill941 hour
What kind of lame pop/rock concert is only 103 dB?!
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I don't believe I was asking for his reasoning, I understood them for the start. Again, I must remind you we are discussing this issue in context of the subject of diminishing returns. It could be that you are correct, that diminishing return is relative. For example, if 99% of my listening will not exceed 75 db's clean, it would be superfluous to spend extra money on speakers to play clean at 100 decibels.
That's pretty much my point, yes. Diminishing returns are for sure subjective. I think I'm there right now with my Sierra ribbon towers. They're not a huge step up from my Ultra towers, but the difference is noticeable and worth it to me. I think at this point I'd have to spend a lot more for any kind of appreciable improvement. Too much more for that next sliver of transparency.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
If you are listening to music, especially lots of today's music, its going to be continuously loud.
A lot of audiophiles don't listen to much popular uncompressed music. Classical music recordings have more dynamic range than ever, some operas have ranges of over 30 dB. So a maximum SPL of 105 dB for a fraction of a second is not excessive.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
A lot of audiophiles don't listen to much popular uncompressed music. Classical music recordings have more dynamic range than ever, some operas have ranges of over 30 dB. So a maximum SPL of 105 dB for a fraction of a second is not excessive.
Unfortunately, Classical nor Jazz is popular music. Most people don't listen or purchase music in those genres. However I do agree that many that describes themselves as audiophiles will listen to and purchase music in those genres. BTW, most people love loud compressed music, that's probably why music is being produced that way, ears and hearing be damned.
 
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V

VMPS-TIII

Audioholic General
this is why i advocate for higher output in speakers. Many have argued that a normal receiver and average speakers exceed any reasonable peak level but this is based on nothing more than conjecture. The reality is most speakers fall way short of reference levels and begin distorting at pretty modest levels. Many people perceive distortion and compression as a hearing issue. If it’s painful it’s dangerous. In many cases the pain and poor sound is actually a function of the distortion and compression of the low output speaker. A cleaner speaker would be listened to louder without discomfort.
Below is the hearing loss ad I see every time I log onto Audioholics. They are looking for patients who enjoy audio. :p

Tinnitus.png
 
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Audioholic Chief
Staff member
If I understand you correctly, those type of speakers (higher output) typically cost a lot of money.
Well, getting all the attributes of a good speaker costs a lot of money.

You can have a speaker that measures really well. Has a really flat response and good directivity, but not a lot of bass extension or output. That can be had for relatively cheap, say $500-$600 a pair on up.

You can have a speaker that has high output but does nothing else well, again, that can be cheap. In fact, any PA speaker meets that criteria.

You cannot have a speaker that has high output and measures well for cheap, that will cost a lot. Outside of the DIY world there aren't many options, but of commercial options, you are looking at $5000+.
 
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Audioholic Chief
Staff member
Do you mind me asking what you did to correct the tonal balance ? I'm just a) wanting to learn and b) very curious on that particalar speaker in my theater room as my end game speaker down the road

Learning about there product and things you did to work with the product really helps

Oh man, it was pretty crude. So the tonal balance issue was just a difference in treble energy. I added a shelf filter and reduced it by 3-6dB. I used highly smoothed anechoic data of each speaker to figure out what was the best match and then I listened to the options I came up with. Spectral balance or tonal balance is the gross relative levels of low and high frequencies. Both speakers measure very flat on their listening axis, so there isn't much concern for that. It was just a difference in treble.

After I lowered the treble (a simple tone control does what I did) by 6dB jeff actually added some of that into the crossover.

You might find the tonal balance of the new 2020+ 212RT's fine now.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Oh man, it was pretty crude. So the tonal balance issue was just a difference in treble energy. I added a shelf filter and reduced it by 3-6dB. I used highly smoothed anechoic data of each speaker to figure out what was the best match and then I listened to the options I came up with. Spectral balance or tonal balance is the gross relative levels of low and high frequencies. Both speakers measure very flat on their listening axis, so there isn't much concern for that. It was just a difference in treble.

After I lowered the treble (a simple tone control does what I did) by 6dB jeff actually added some of that into the crossover.

You might find the tonal balance of the new 2020+ 212RT's fine now.
Hey thanks for the info
 
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