Differences in DAC's - is it that noticable?

[PENG]

If the 3020 does have a more advanced RC software, then the 3020 is the clear winner to me (at the same price).

Actually I am not quite sure. Their comparison table only shows the 3020 has "angle measurements".

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I can only imagine that 95%+ of the buying public has not a clue what we are discussing. The go out, pick a price, like the shiny knobs, get sold by the salesman, and buy. I am no expert, but I know enough to research. And when I'm thinking $1,500, my research becomes deeper. The sad part about the Yamaha brand, which is why I was initially considering not going this route, is that the only brick & mortar store I can find them at is at Best Buy. No offense to employees there, but I'm pretty sure I know a lot more about a/v receivers than any salesman there would, thus no one to discuss true selling points with (unless I do happen upon a "real" a/v salesman who knows his/her stuff). I used to buy my equipment at Tweeter, and they generally had knowledgeable sales people who knew their products. Even sadder, when I called Yamaha on Saturday and asked my DAC question, the person couldn't even tell me which had Burr-Brown or ESS DAC.

The higher end gear shops who sell Cambridge Audio, NAD, speakers like Martin Logan, etc. - I just don't have the bucks to shell out for comparable equipment. The $1,500 NAD entry I was looking at was refurbished (not a hugely big deal) - T775HD2. No bells and whistles, plus, there really isn't a warm & fuzzy with the lack of info I found on my search. I know NAD gets good write-ups for power, but just think with the huge lack of any bells & whistles, not sure how much better their build quality is over the Yamaha's I'm looking at. And as I previously stated, I just don't have the time (CPA in tax season), to run around finding every $1,500 a/v receiver I can to audition. And with higher ends, most of the units would be used.

Best Buy will price match Amazon and other online retailers, so I don't mind Best Buy or their incompetence.

As long as they have the goods and the prices, I am cool with it. And Best Buy has a great return policy in case you need to return.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Actually I am not quite sure. Their comparison table only shows the 3020 has "angle measurements".

Yeah, we are both Denon/Marantz guys, so we are not up to speed with Yamaha.

But if I had to choose between an AVR w/ Audyssey XT32 + ESS DAC vs. Audyssey XT + Burr-Brown DAC, I would get the AVR w/ XT32 regardless of DAC.

 

[metalmancpa]

Best Buy will price match Amazon and other online retailers, so I don't mind Best Buy or their incompetence.

As long as they have the goods and the prices, I am cool with it. And Best Buy has a great return policy in case you need to return.

The 3020's are not in the Best Buy stores anymore. You can buy through Best Buy online and pick up at the store. But the unit is from World Wide Stereo, and Best Buy says no returns to their stores for the 3020.

But yes, I have used Amazon price matching with them before. I like talking to people with knowledge though, and for me anyways Tweeter was the last place I've found that.

 

[metalmancpa]

Yeah, we are both Denon/Marantz guys, so we are not up to speed with Yamaha.

But if I had to choose between an AVR w/ Audyssey XT32 + ESS DAC vs. Audyssey XT + Burr-Brown DAC, I would get the AVR w/ XT32 regardless of DAC.

You may be Denon/Marantz guys, but for my discussion you're just audio enthusiasts with knowledge. The lack of Audyssey with Yamaha who instead used their own proprietary method YPAO (or so I believe it to be) won't chase me away from Yamaha. Whatever I get will be the first unit I will own with this automatic setup feature, a feature down on my list of "important".

 

[metalmancpa]

Called Crutchfield. I got an open box RX-A3020 for $1,349.99 w/no tax & free shipping. According to them, open box is probably little to no use, usually a return because the unit was too big. Same 3-year warranty as new, and 60-day no questions return policy. I'm excited to get it on Wednesday.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Called Crutchfield. I got an open box RX-A3020 for $1,349.99 w/no tax & free shipping. According to them, open box is probably little to no use, usually a return because the unit was too big. Same 3-year warranty as new, and 60-day no questions return policy. I'm excited to get it on Wednesday.

Should be a fine, fine product if you listen in Direct modes. It is heavy @ 40lbs.

 

[metalmancpa]

Should be a fine, fine product if you listen in Direct modes. It is heavy @ 40lbs.

I trust it will. I sometimes experiment with the various sound fields, but I'm a simpleton and just want the best sound.

 

[EarBallsDeep]

To

It seems to me if you can get pass the DAC thing and if the 3020 costs only slightly less, then go for the 3030 otherwise the 3020 maybe all you need. Either one should have no trouble powering your ADS unless you listen loud in a larger room or the other 5 speakers are also 4 ohm ADS type. In that case, you may have to add a two or three channel power amp.

I know this thread is 4 years old, but found it via a Google search on the model # of the DAC in the A3080 receiver I have on the way. I have some other questions based the above mention of ohms…very relevant to my issue.

Some history: I’ve been out of the game for a while, the last system (other than a nice THX rated 2.1 Altec Lansing computer-based system) I had was a high-end Yamaha 7.1 12 years ago with a ton of power with Energy Connoisseur Reference RC-50 (8 ohm) and matching series surrounds. I like the volume LOUD on occasion and that system was awesome. I don’t think I ever turned up the volume past 60%. It was soul penetrating, and clean. Unfortunately, had to sell it shortly after I bought due to financial hardship.

So, wanting a comparable system, I looked at Yamaha again, and originally landed on the A1080 combined with Martin Logan Motion 40 fronts, a Motion 30 center and two Martin Logan LX-16s for the rears (+ Martin Logan Dynamo 1000W sub. Doing a 5.1 system w/bi-amping). Had a brief discussion with a Crutchfield rep about the advice on the back of the A1080 that state that the fronts should be 4 ohm minimum and the rest should be 6 ohm minimum. Mainly, he mentioned something about the amps overheating? Knowing that the Motions 40s were 4 ohms; okay there. But the Motion 30 is also 4 ohm and the LX16s are 5 ohm. Wanting a second opinion, I called Martin Logan and in short the rep said not to worry about it. Besides, I’ve been told that lower impedance should equate to louder. The 40s can handle 300 watts easy (said the ML rep), so I was concerned that the 110W @ 8 ohms/channel that the A1080 gives wouldn’t be enough.

Get the system put together (minus one Motion 40, due to damage in shipping),and…got a problem. Hardly any volume! FYI…the receiver’s display range is -80 to +16.5 dB. Depending on the source, I won’t hear a thing until -60 to -50 dB. Meaning, that’s when I can actually hear sound at the quietest volume. “Mildly loudish” is nearly 75% volume on the volume bar, or about -7 dB. And much beyond that, and the first signs of distortion are coming in. When I say mildly loudish, that means I could still easily have a conversation with someone 3 feet away from me and just talk in a louder, but non-strained talking voice. Also FYI...the system is in my vaulted ceiling 15x18 master bedroom...not too large.

So…I negotiated with the eBay seller of the A1080 to allow me to upgrade (return A1080 with an open box fee for the A1080 and buy one of his A3080s) to the A3080 (150W vs 110W @ 8 ohms), or according to Yamaha’s website 210W vs 295W @ 4 ohms. So as of this writing, the A3080 shipped today.

Wanting to know a little bit more about the SABRE PRO Premier DAC (ES9026PRO) in the A3080, Googled it and found this thread. Then I spotted this statement “…unless you listen loud in a larger room or the other 5 speakers are also 4 ohm…” – hinting that the low ohms of the surrounds are robbing the fronts of power?

As much as I would like to, I just don’t want to dump $2K+ on 2-channel amp. So, for just under $900, I’m taking the chance on upgrading to the A3080. But I would love to get educated on what is happening…specifically why I’m just not getting much volume. Are the Motion 40s just that inefficient, i.e, super power hungry?

 

[PENG]

As much as I would like to, I just don’t want to dump $2K+ on 2-channel amp. So, for just under $900, I’m taking the chance on upgrading to the A3080. But I would love to get educated on what is happening…specifically why I’m just not getting much volume. Are the Motion 40s just that inefficient, i.e, super power hungry?

4 ohm tower speakers are typically more demanding, but those ML Motion speakers do have decent sensitivities so they may not be too difficult to drive, depending on you siting distance and room size. The A3080 is clearly a much better choice than the A1080.

The calculator linked below should help you figure out if you need to add an external amp.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

 

[awdio]

Yamaha RX-A3020 @ 1% THD: 162W x 2Ch 8 ohms/258 W x 2Ch 4 ohms/69W x 5Ch 8 ohms (Sound & Vision Magazine)

Yamaha RX-A3020 A/V Receiver Page 4 | Sound & Vision

Yamaha RX-A2000 @ 1% THD: 189.3W x 2Ch 8 ohms/287.4W x 2Ch 4 ohms/79.9W x 5Ch 8 ohms (old Home Theater Magazine, now new Sound & Vision Magazine)

Yamaha Aventage RX-A2000 A/V Receiver HT Labs Measures | Sound & Vision

Logic says the 3000 series should have more power than the 2000 series, so I would blame this on different lab methodology.

But I suspect the difference in power is insignificant. The difference between their DAC is even LESS significant. So the determining factor should be features.

Have you you tried other AVR (Denon, Anthem, etc.) and compared to Yamaha?

We all know we listen to features. Today's DACs perform the same as ones from 10 years ago. (sarcasm)

 

[blaze2051]

i own 3x yamaha rxv375 v681 and a770 all sound good i dont use ypao cause i want to tweak my own settings to my ears i like yamaha sound my nr868 onkyo had audx32 and it was good but i always ended not using it and tweaking it to my liking but the onkyo failed hdmi board and center channel. and i like yamaha quality

 

[Bunion]

Since we started talking Yamaha here:
I have the A2070. I had similar problems with volume. I couldn't get the sound I wanted or the amp would shut down. I finally realized that by running 7 channels I was only getting 40 watts each.
My solution was using the separate line outs and adding amplifiers. Now I only use the A2070 for surround and height channels. It was easy to balance all the channels and I have the headroom I was looking for.

 

[snakeeyes]

Since we started talking Yamaha here:
I have the A2070. I had similar problems with volume. I couldn't get the sound I wanted or the amp would shut down. I finally realized that by running 7 channels I was only getting 40 watts each.
My solution was using the separate line outs and adding amplifiers. Now I only use the A2070 for surround and height channels. It was easy to balance all the channels and I have the headroom I was looking for.

My A2060 is in 5.1. I plan to add 4 ceilings soon. If I run into any power issues I can always add an amp to the front 3 such as a few Outlaw M2200 monoblocks.

 

[Phase 2]

ADTG, like many of us, have various gear that have some top notch DACs in them and we found they don't make audible differences. Some days I find my Oppo (has the flagship ESS DAC) sound better or same as my Denon 3910 (has the 2nd best Burr Brown DAC),while other days I could swear the Denon sounds better.

At the point nearing diminishing return, what matters most is the source media. if the recording and mastering is good, it will sound good, otherwise it does not matter what DAC, players and amps you have, given that you have decent speakers as ultimately that's what has to translate the electronic signal to sound.

PENG, wouldn't the pre-amp have a lot or more to do with how the source would sound? Since everything come to the input side of the pre-amp than to the amp wouldn't the design high quality parts used. Outside of the source being 1st, pre-amp matters a lot right? Since I'm in no way a audio engineer, preamp design is critical right? sound quality being, source and speakers used the most influential.

 

[PENG]

PENG, wouldn't the pre-amp have a lot or more to do with how the source would sound? Since everything come to the input side of the pre-amp than to the amp wouldn't the design high quality parts used. Outside of the source being 1st, pre-amp matters a lot right? Since I'm in no way a audio engineer, preamp design is critical right? sound quality being, source and speakers used the most influential.

I wanted to answer you question by simply saying no, based on "garbage in garbage out" but that would seem too generalizing.

So below is my opinion and logic (not all facts), and as they say, ymmv..

The media source contents - should in theory be more important because the sound wave has to go through and subjected to many complicated things including the recording venue acoustics, recording mic(s), the associated cabling/wiring, various kinds of equalizers, mixers, and other electronic devices including amplifiers and probably ADC and DAC depending on the process. I am sure there are more, but I am not familiar with studio and live recording/mastering, hopefully some resident experts such as @Irvrobinson and @TLS Guy who have done their own recordings would chime in.

The source players such as cd/dvd/universal/blu-ray players - are also important but they are all matured technological try and true products such that once you get pass the cheap entry level stuff, they should be not be the bottleneck if you bit stream to the AVP/AVC/AVR.

External DACs are typically not the bottleneck either, you can read up on the audiosciencereview.com. They tested a lot of DACs and found even the flag ship Marantz prepro could match the performance of most $200 external DACs.

Preamp and amp - Both are amplifiers, pre-amp typically has much lower gain, and handles much higher voltage current than pre-amps. Both are again, matured technological products. I would say in an overall sense, between the two, the power amp is most likely the bottleneck because of their higher gain and power output. In the extreme case, a pre-amp for "line level" signals can be passive such that it doesn't even have to amplify, but simply control the "volume" by attenuation, and of course switch/select the inputs. This is based comparing pre-amp and power amp in a "separate" system. It is a little different in the modern world of the AVR/AVP/AVC and some "AVR derived/related" integrated amps.

For example, all recent Yamaha AVRs (except I am not sure about the 2017 and newer models, and some integrated amp such as the A-S801's preamp (I would guess the same for the C-X5100 prepro) section is based on a single LSI chip that has better noise and distortion specs than entry level DAC chips, but not as good as the better ones such as the ES9006, so yes in that case it could be the bottleneck upstream of the power amp section, but it is still at the mercy of the quality of the upstream source media contents. In other words, garbage in garbage out still rules.

I have linked the article a few many times before, you seem like someone who may be interested in reading it. There are 3 parts, so it may take you hours to read and digest everything.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/technical/technical-reviews/options-by-supplier-and-price/

 

[Phase 2]

I wanted to answer you question by simply saying no, based on "garbage in garbage out" but that would seem too generalizing.

So below is my opinion and logic (not all facts), and as they say, ymmv..

The media source contents - should in theory be more important because the sound wave has to go through and subjected to many complicated things including the recording venue acoustics, recording mic(s), the associated cabling/wiring, various kinds of equalizers, mixers, and other electronic devices including amplifiers and probably ADC and DAC depending on the process. I am sure there are more, but I am not familiar with studio and live recording/mastering, hopefully some resident experts such as @Irvrobinson and @TLS Guy who have done their own recordings would chime in.

The source players such as cd/dvd/universal/blu-ray players - are also important but they are all matured technological try and true products such that once you get pass the cheap entry level stuff, they should be not be the bottleneck if you bit stream to the AVP/AVC/AVR.

External DACs are typically not the bottleneck either, you can read up on the audiosciencereview.com. They tested a lot of DACs and found even the flag ship Marantz prepro could match the performance of most $200 external DACs.

Preamp and amp - Both are amplifiers, pre-amp typically has much lower gain, and handles much higher voltage current than pre-amps. Both are again, matured technological products. I would say in an overall sense, between the two, the power amp is most likely the bottleneck because of their higher gain and power output. In the extreme case, a pre-amp for "line level" signals can be passive such that it doesn't even have to amplify, but simply control the "volume" by attenuation, and of course switch/select the inputs. This is based comparing pre-amp and power amp in a "separate" system. It is a little different in the modern world of the AVR/AVP/AVC and some "AVR derived/related" integrated amps.

For example, all recent Yamaha AVRs (except I am not sure about the 2017 and newer models, and some integrated amp such as the A-S801's preamp (I would guess the same for the C-X5100 prepro) section is based on a single LSI chip that has better noise and distortion specs than entry level DAC chips, but not as good as the better ones such as the ES9006, so yes in that case it could be the bottleneck upstream of the power amp section, but it is still at the mercy of the quality of the upstream source media contents. In other words, garbage in garbage out still rules.

I have linked the article a few many times before, you seem like someone who may be interested in reading it. There are 3 parts, so it may take you hours to read and digest everything.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/technical/technical-reviews/options-by-supplier-and-price/

Thanks PENG!! Clears up a lot.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I wanted to answer you question by simply saying no, based on "garbage in garbage out" but that would seem too generalizing.

So below is my opinion and logic (not all facts),and as they say, ymmv..

The media source contents - should in theory be more important because the sound wave has to go through and subjected to many complicated things including the recording venue acoustics, recording mic(s),the associated cabling/wiring, various kinds of equalizers, mixers, and other electronic devices including amplifiers and probably ADC and DAC depending on the process. I am sure there are more, but I am not familiar with studio and live recording/mastering

IMO, a properly designed pre-amp based on very high quality IC op-amps is going to have better specs than anything else in the recording chain, so I agree with you, PENG. As you probably know, the ADC process is simpler than the DAC process, so for purist recordings where the conversion is only done once (many classical and acoustic jazz recordings are like this) the recording chain is very clean. There is a lot of difference in the skill of mic placement and microphone choice, so the recording engineer's skill is paramount. I'm just the sort of nerd who has favorite recording engineers, and I like it when they list the mics they use. Microphones can have distinct sound signatures.

These days my recordings are limited to my wife's bands and solo playing, and non-musical ones made in my listening room to tune my system (which I haven't done in a few years). When I record her bands it's direct to two track digital on a Tascam handheld recorder using only two mics on a stand with an attachment to aim them. I get away with such simplicity because the venue is only about 500 square feet. But often the quality of the recordings is surprising (in a good way). Even the built-in mics on the Tascam with the recorder on a stand (which is what I do for the system set-up work) result in surprisingly good recordings.

That story about the pre-amp making a big difference because everything goes through it is Stereophile folklore (and I think a quote from John Atkinson). If it was JA as a damned good recording engineer he should know better.