Did I somehow ruin my speakers?

[Nate S]

Where you bi-amping or bi-wiring? You said in a post above you were bi-amping. There is a huge difference.

You are not correct about the impedance. Bi-wiring does not change the impedance. Bi-amping each amps sees just the impedance offered by the speaker/filter section it is connected to.

If this was bi-wiring and you did this correctly, then your receiver is faulty and had a DC offset they blew your speakers. However two amps would have to have failed at the same time.

If bi-amping was involved, then I suspect that you inadvertently connected two power amp positives together, which will cause a massive cascade of problems instantly.

I was bi-amping (I think :/)+...sorry for the ambiguity there. So, using one amp and connecting all four posts per channel on the back of the amp to the four posts on the back of the (each) speaker. After trying to single wire (with the brackets back on the posts), sound was only coming from the tweeter section of the speaker. I then removed the brackets to test both sections of the speaker...sound was produced from the tweeter when wires were connected to the top posts, nothing was produced from the sub when only the bottom posts were connected.

Moral of the story: I probably should have looked more into this prior to hooking up. Seeing the four posts on the back of the amp along with the 4 on the speaker seemed all too intuitive. After looking in more detail, I seriously doubt ears like mine would be able to notice the difference if I single wired or bi-wired/amped.

 

[TLS Guy]

I may not know exactly what I'm doing here, but connecting wires from an amp to a speaker isn't rocket science. Nothing happened with the cones at all when doing the battery test.

It could very well be that a fuse blew on my amp, but if that were the case...would any sound come out at all?

Either way, I'll be contacting the Marantz as well to look into that aspect as well.

Was this a bi-wire set up, or bi-amp? It is crucial you explain what the exact set up was, so that we can determine what happened.

However the fact that the low pass sections of both speakers failed at the same time, makes it the overwhelming probability that you did miss wire the set up and caused this.

My strong hunch is that somehow, even for a brief instant you connected the positives of two receiver amp sections together, and caused huge DC offset.

The chance of this being the fault of the manufacturers is remote in the extreme.

However, the reality is that you have two broken speakers.

The next reality is that there is a strong possibility your receiver is damaged and could cause damage to another set of speakers.

Before any new speakers are connected to that receiver, it has to undergo extensive bench testing at the minimum.

 

[TLS Guy]

I was bi-amping (I think :/)+...sorry for the ambiguity there. So, using one amp and connecting all four posts per channel on the back of the amp to the four posts on the back of the (each) speaker. After trying to single wire (with the brackets back on the posts), sound was only coming from the tweeter section of the speaker. I then removed the brackets to test both sections of the speaker...sound was produced from the tweeter when wires were connected to the top posts, nothing was produced from the sub when only the bottom posts were connected.

Moral of the story: I probably should have looked more into this prior to hooking up. Seeing the four posts on the back of the amp along with the 4 on the speaker seemed all too intuitive. After looking in more detail, I seriously doubt ears like mine would be able to notice the difference if I single wired or bi-wired/amped.

I think that closes the case. You obviously did connect two amp channels of the amp together. This is a mega disaster. You now have two damaged speakers and almost certainly a seriously damaged receiver.

This is an expensive lesson for you, and I feel sorry for you.

Bi-amping is a complex set up.

Others need to benefit from this experience. I wish this post could be made a sticky as a warning.

People who try this bi-amping are more likely than not inexperienced. Anyone experienced, will know that passive bi-amping is a waste of time and effort.

It is odd, as I have often discouraged posters asking about bi-amping, for fear of causing the problem you have encountered.

 

[Seth=L]

After looking in more detail, I seriously doubt ears like mine would be able to notice the difference if I single wired or bi-wired/amped.

"with ears like these"

Sorry, I should not poke fun at your misfortune. Bi-amping rarely offers much advantage, especially when using the same central power supply. Some merit is to be had for passive bi-amping when using two separate amplifiers if more power is needed, but in reality it would be better to just have used a single more powerful amplifier. Bi-wiring, as I see it, provide no real audible advantage other than listener bias.

Did the woofers stop working during playback or did you just turn the system on one day and there was nothing?

 

[Seth=L]

The next reality is that there is a strong possibility your receiver is damaged and could cause damage to another set of speakers.

Before any new speakers are connected to that receiver, it has to undergo extensive bench testing at the minimum.

I agree with this. I've experienced it. It's not worth the risk.

 

[TLS Guy]

"with ears like these"

Sorry, I should not poke fun at your misfortune. Bi-amping rarely offers much advantage, especially when using the same central power supply. Some merit is to be had for passive bi-amping when using two separate amplifiers if more power is needed, but in reality it would be better to just have used a single more powerful amplifier. Bi-wiring, as I see it, provide no real audible advantage other than listener bias.

Did the woofers stop working during playback or did you just turn the system on one day and there was nothing?

The woofers quit very soon after initial set up when he was trying to find out why his turntable sounded bad. He never got close to a days use out of the rig!

 

[Seth=L]

The woofers quit very soon after initial set up when he was trying to find out why his turntable sounded bad. He never got close to a days use out of the rig!

That is so disappointing.

 

[Nate S]

That is so disappointing.

Indeed it is....manufacturer has already agreed to accept the speakers back, which is a positive. Now I guess I just need to see if the amp is damaged or not.

To clear things up. The back of the amp has 2 channels both with posts for A and B. Meaning a total of 4 posts for each channel..2 for A and 2 for B (per channel) totaling to 8 posts. Therefore i connected A & B from each channel to each speaker respectively. To me, this seemed like the obvious way to do it...guess I was WAY off here.

Would there have been any indicator at all that something happened, though? A POP or a loud noise of some sort....or do these things happen silently?

 

[Seth=L]

Indeed it is....manufacturer has already agreed to accept the speakers back, which is a positive. Now I guess I just need to see if the amp is damaged or not.

I guess that's good news for you. What's this receiver?

EDIT: I went back to the opening post. It's not a receiver, it's an integrated amplifier. Marantz PM5005.

http://www.us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=HiFiComponents&ProductId=PM5005

PM5005 features A and B speaker outputs, for two sets of stereo speakers, or for bi-wiring with compatible stereo speakers.

To clear things up. The back of the amp has 2 channels both with posts for A and B. Meaning a total of 4 posts for each channel..2 for A and 2 for B (per channel) totaling to 8 posts. Therefore i connected A & B from each channel to each speaker respectively. To me, this seemed like the obvious way to do it...guess I was WAY off here.

Both A & B speakers operate off the same amplifier channels, so you would have gained nothing. In truth what you basically did was in effect bi-wire your speakers (assuming the wiring had been done correctly). But for clarity let's assume it's possible it was not done correctly. If you had connected only A left and right to one speaker and B left and right to the other speaker, that would more than likely cause crossover damage. Is this what you did?

Would there have been any indicator at all that something happened, though? A POP or a loud noise of some sort....or do these things happen silently?

Usually there's a noise, but it could happen silently.

 

[Nate S]

I guess that's good news for you. What's this receiver?

EDIT: I went back to the opening post. It's not a receiver, it's an integrated amplifier. Marantz PM5005.

http://www.us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=HiFiComponents&ProductId=PM5005





Both A & B speakers operate off the same amplifier channels, so you would have gained nothing. In truth what you basically did was in effect bi-wire your speakers (assuming the wiring had been done correctly).



Usually there's a noise, but it could happen silently.

Hopefully this picture helps clear things up....which is EXACTLY how I had my speakers wired! At first, I left the bars on with all four wires connected, which caused the amp to immediately MUTE the volume. After looking at the manual I found this diagram...now that that depicts what I did (as recommended by the manufacturer) I'm wondering what happened...

 

[Seth=L]

Hopefully this picture helps clear things up....which is EXACTLY how I had my speakers wired! At first, I left the bars on with all four wires connected, which caused the amp to immediately MUTE the volume. After looking at the manual I found this diagram...now that that depicts what I did (as recommended by the manufacturer) I'm wondering what happened...
View attachment 17498

I think you may have damaged the amplifier first, which caused the amplifier to develop a problem that would cause DC offset. Then you damaged the speakers by connecting it to it again.

So you initially hooked it up incorrectly. It went into protect mode. You corrected the wiring. You listened to music through the iPhone, it sounded great. You played music from a turntable, it sounded bad. You started making changes to the system while the turntable was in use and the woofers stopped working while the equipment was on? Did you witness the event of the woofers ceasing to operate?

 

[sterling shoote]

Your problem began when you first turned things on with the jumper bars still in place. You now know you should have taken them off first not later.

 

[slipperybidness]

Hopefully this picture helps clear things up....which is EXACTLY how I had my speakers wired! At first, I left the bars on with all four wires connected, which caused the amp to immediately MUTE the volume. After looking at the manual I found this diagram...now that that depicts what I did (as recommended by the manufacturer) I'm wondering what happened...
View attachment 17498

Well, that diagram clearly states "Remove Shorting Bar"........but you did not do that at first.......no bueno

 

[Nate S]

Well, that diagram clearly states "Remove Shorting Bar"........but you did not do that at first.......no bueno

Thank you Captain Obvious...you're killin it on the snarky responses.

To everyone else, thanks for helping out with the diagnosis. Looks like leaving the bar on was the culprit. Sucks that an honest mistake like that could cause so much damage, but major lesson learned here. Hopefully I can still return this and move forward.

Will let you guys know once I've got things setup CORRECTLY.

 

[Nate S]

I think you may have damaged the amplifier first, which caused the amplifier to develop a problem that would cause DC offset. Then you damaged the speakers by connecting it to it again.

So you initially hooked it up incorrectly. It went into protect mode. You corrected the wiring. You listened to music through the iPhone, it sounded great. You played music from a turntable, it sounded bad. You started making changes to the system while the turntable was in use and the woofers stopped working while the equipment was on? Did you witness the event of the woofers ceasing to operate?

All of that is correct. As for the subs, they quit working once I turned the system back on. So for protect mode, would that prevent damage to the amp or is it too late?

 

[markw]

All of that is correct. As for the subs, they quit working once I turned the system back on. So for protect mode, would that prevent damage to the amp or is it too late?

It SHOULD, but it's been known to not be 100% reliable.

Do you have another set of speakers to see if the amp still works?

 

[slipperybidness]

It SHOULD, but it's been known to not be 100% reliable.

Do you have another set of speakers to see if the amp still works?

Another set of CHEAP speakers that is..........the only thing worse than killing a pair of speakers is killing 2 pairs of speakers

 

[TLS Guy]

I think you may have damaged the amplifier first, which caused the amplifier to develop a problem that would cause DC offset. Then you damaged the speakers by connecting it to it again.

So you initially hooked it up incorrectly. It went into protect mode. You corrected the wiring. You listened to music through the iPhone, it sounded great. You played music from a turntable, it sounded bad. You started making changes to the system while the turntable was in use and the woofers stopped working while the equipment was on? Did you witness the event of the woofers ceasing to operate?

Well spotted Seth. My apologies for not checking every item of equipment the OP owned. You just can't trust anything in any post these days.

So he had an integrated amp and not a receiver, so he could not bi-amp he biwired.

So how did this happen.

So I do not understand how this happened if he wired it correctly. Leaving the jumpers in place would be no different to running two pairs of cables from one set of speaker outputs to one set of inputs. There would be no damage, as selecting A & B speakers just connects the two cables in parallel.

So I have to conclude, that he wired a pair of cables out of phase to each speaker, or more likely wired one left and one right speaker cable to each speaker. This is the scenario that would have most likely caused the DC off set.

Mixing up the polarity from a right or left terminal would cause a short circuit and I can't see how that would blow the speakers, unless the amp was damaged, and then when he removed the jumpers, the amp failed with massive DC of set and the protection circuit did not work, either because it was faulty or more likely was damaged in the shut down he now reports.

However getting a right and left cable mixed up with the jumpers connected would cause the catastrophic problem we have here, as the positives of the two power amps would be connected, and that is one of the worst mistakes you can ever make.

The far less likely possibility is that there was something wrong with the amp such as the speaker terminals miss wired.

That amp has had DC off set and so should not be connected to any other speaker.

Two blown woofers is absolute evidence of massive DC off set.

So that amp has been severely stresses and the best option is replacement since it is a new unit. Even with checking and repair, more problems down the line are very possible.

 

[TLS Guy]

I think you may have damaged the amplifier first, which caused the amplifier to develop a problem that would cause DC offset. Then you damaged the speakers by connecting it to it again.

So you initially hooked it up incorrectly. It went into protect mode. You corrected the wiring. You listened to music through the iPhone, it sounded great. You played music from a turntable, it sounded bad. You started making changes to the system while the turntable was in use and the woofers stopped working while the equipment was on? Did you witness the event of the woofers ceasing to operate?

Well spotted Seth! My apologies for not checking every piece of equipment the OP owned. So he had a receiver, and could not have bi-amped. So he bi-wired via the A & B terminals.

I'm now at the point where I can't trust any post!

Leaving the jumpers on by itself would not have caused this, as having A & B speakers selected just connects the terminals in parallel.

I have to conclude that either he had an out of phase condition in a cable to at least one speaker. This would cause a short and trigger protection which happened. However a short would not blow up the speakers as even if there were DC off set it would damage the amp with the speaker protected by the short. Also unless he had an out of phase condition to both speakers, only one amp would have been damaged.

Somehow both speakers got damaged.

I think it most likely that he mixed up a left and right cable pair. This would have connected the two power amps together, and caused catastrophic damage, and explain two blown woofers at the same time, and damage two power amps, that could cause both to have DC offset.

I suspect the protection circuit was damaged in the first shut down and then failed.

My money is on a mix up with a left right cable pair while the jumpers were connected.

Sorry for answering this post twice, but the first time I checked this post only your post appeared and not my reply. Now I see my original post has belatedly turned up.

 

[highfigh]

I may not know exactly what I'm doing here, but connecting wires from an amp to a speaker isn't rocket science. Nothing happened with the cones at all when doing the battery test.

It could very well be that a fuse blew on my amp, but if that were the case...would any sound come out at all?

Either way, I'll be contacting the Marantz as well to look into that aspect as well.

Unless Marantz uses some weird circuitry, the A and B speaker terminals are parallel, through the selector switch, as you pointed out. In theory, the protection circuit should have prevented any damage to the speakers or amp- I have seen woofers blow because of too much power, but not from a short across the speaker terminals on an amp.

Since this happened when a turntable was being used, I'll ask what nobody else has- was the needle dropped (or the turntable bumped) when the amp turned on? What about volume and tone control settings? If the volume and bass were turned up when the amp turned on and the record had strong bass response and possibly a warp, it could have killed the woofers.

These speakers have 5" mid/woofers- speaker manufacturers need to stop putting two sets of terminals on speakers that won't handle a boatload of bass or power.

Not to belabor the point, but using two sets of wire and connecting them to either one or two sets of terminals that are coming from the same amplifier channels only serves to move the location of that gold strap. It might add a tiny bit of resistance, but it still accomplishes the same thing and the effect will be negligible, if it exists at all.

Have you pressed on the mid/woofer cones, yet? You could gently press with your fingers evenly spaced on the cone, near the center. If you hear anything crunchy, this happened quickly and it should have made some kind of sound, even if Direct Current came from the amplifier. If that had happened, the cone would move in or out but it wouldn't have remained still.