Denon X3800 shuts down

little wing

little wing

Audioholic General
I had an Onkyo Tx-RZ70 on order but apparently it fell into a black hole at a UPS site,... never to be heard from again... I figured that the (possibly class AB) Crown amp could give similar results (200 to 300 watts)(when combined with the denon bells and whistles, at a much reduced price... Adequate power gives reasonable sound in my experience.

Enjoy!
Gene really liked the Onkyo RZ70. He gave it a very good review. Shame the delivery got messed up. You say adding the crown amp to your Denon AVR didn't provide a substantial improvement in sound?

You gonna order anothe RZ70, or is the retailer going to send out another one?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Yes; I listen to music flat; no equalization , normally (good speakers and fair acoustics can allow this). also without subs ('though I may try one, again this weekend)
Traced the intermittent shutdown issue to my sony 4k player (once again; after numerous failures; I find that s**y is still a four letter word...
Panasonic UB820K, on order, should be here today.
Crown amp (XLI 800) installed, using the front L&R pre-outs on the Denon; Does not hurt, nor help the sound, significantly (using my back up blue ray player); as far as I can tell; during a very short listening session last night.

Life is looking up...
THANK YOU! all for your time and suggestions...

Enjoy!
At lower volumes "flat" can sound a bit off due the way we hear....YMMV.

I've had very good results with Sony players. Not tried Panasonic, but wouldn't buy Samsung again.

Adding an amp just adds power, so you might gain some thing in that regard rather than "the sound"
 
Happy Joe

Happy Joe

Audioholic Intern
Gene really liked the Onkyo RZ70. He gave it a very good review. Shame the delivery got messed up. You say adding the crown amp to your Denon AVR didn't provide a substantial improvement in sound?

You gonna order another RZ70, or is the retailer going to send out another one?
The vendor offered a refund and I took it.
I considered re-ordering the RZ70; but then encountered a sale on Crown amps so I figured that since the real power hogs of the system were the r700s I would try the recommendation of several folks and get more power, just for them.
Note; after spending yesterday listening to the Denon, Crown, powered R700s I am convinced that these speakers really like power; the change was not a night and day difference, but the addition of a couple of hundred watts gave them a small boost in bottom end and resonance.: I'm going to keep the amp setup this way.
The smaller surround speakers are still powered by the denon and continue to sound OK.
I believe that I will probably not go for another try at the onkyo. I will just wait a while and see what advances are made in commercial offerings.
I might fire up a subwoofer to see how that affects movie enjoyment, however...

Enjoy!
 
Happy Joe

Happy Joe

Audioholic Intern
At lower volumes "flat" can sound a bit off due the way we hear....YMMV.

I've had very good results with Sony players. Not tried Panasonic, but wouldn't buy Samsung again.

Adding an amp just adds power, so you might gain some thing in that regard rather than "the sound"
Yes I am fully aware of hearing/volume and frequency response; I do like the speakers response to more power, however, and will keep the Crown installed.

When I initially got the Denon 3800, I worried about it being under powered for the r700s and this, indeed, seems to be the case ... I am not certain that even 140 watts per channel (onkyo) is enough to fully drive them... The crown is capable of up to 200 to 300 watts depending on their impedance and seems to keep them sounding happy.

Enjoy!
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Yes I am fully aware of hearing/volume and frequency response; I do like the speakers response to more power, however, and will keep the Crown installed.

When I initially got the Denon 3800, I worried about it being under powered for the r700s and this, indeed, seems to be the case ... I am not certain that even 140 watts per channel (onkyo) is enough to fully drive them... The crown is capable of up to 200 to 300 watts depending on their impedance and seems to keep them sounding happy.

Enjoy!
All depends at the levels you listen at. What does "fully drive" mean?
 
K

Kleinst

Audioholic Chief
A 3 channel power amp for the front 3 channels will cost you less and add more current capability for those Polk speakers. The RZ70 is a very powerful AVR than the AVR-X3800H, but "loudness" perceived, being not linear, the RZ70 will be like turning down the Denon by 1-2 clicks on the volume dial, all else being equal. It really isn't a good way to deal with your issue, acquiring a 3 channel amp is.

For $140, fix the center channel:
Fosi Audio V3 Mono Amplifier Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

For $700, fix the R700, in fact any speakers you might upgrade to in future:
Buckeye Amps

Power amps are better in longevity, so when time comes to upgrade the AVR, the amps can stay, that's way I no longer think expensive AVRs, or even AVPs are good options nowadays, when new and improve features keep coming, rendering AVP features/specs outdating very quickly and would almost become obsolete within 5-7 years.

If you can sell your X3800H for $1,000 then the Rz70 could be a cost effective solution too, albeit not a good solution as explained, and you will lose the very effective Audyssey XT32 (if you use the $20 app), 4 sub-outs, though the RZ70 includes Dirac Live, bass control is a paid option iirc.
Are you saying you are starting to be of the mind that the processor is essentially a commodity given a certain feature level ... Channels, atmos, pre outs? That's kind of been my believe is it's 1's and 0's and I enjoy 200WPC amps in my setups via pre outs. The only differentiator I guess is the room correction then I suppose. Although once you get a room dialed in as you are happy with it, I don't know how incremental that is. I have NOT used Dirac yet however. I know you have had some nice Anthem AVPs of late.

With regards to this post, I have a 4700 and use 200WPC for all my 9 channels with external AMPs. I think the Denon does a great job. So much that I wonder what I would replace it with if it died (I hope it doesn't die). Along the lines of the commodity comment, I wondered if a 3800 with pre outs adequate for my 5.2.4 setup would essentially be no worst than the 4 of 6 series... Or even reaching for an A1H makes zero sense if only using 9 channels! But for the OP, I'd see if you can find a Monolith 7x or an Outlaw 7700 or 7500 used and keep that sucker forever and then use the 3800 in processing mode.

Best of luck. You will probably enjoy either option.
 
Happy Joe

Happy Joe

Audioholic Intern
I too like Power levels around 200 WPC;
I tend to view audio, and video as windows onto what the individual artist(s) is/are presenting; equalization and special effects only serve to color the original intent, IMO.; not necessarily bad but not necessarily good either...
.. its all just a means to communicate... though not necessarily with speech (IMO)...

Enjoy!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Are you saying you are starting to be of the mind that the processor is essentially a commodity given a certain feature level ... Channels, atmos, pre outs? That's kind of been my believe is it's 1's and 0's and I enjoy 200WPC amps in my setups via pre outs. The only differentiator I guess is the room correction then I suppose. Although once you get a room dialed in as you are happy with it, I don't know how incremental that is. I have NOT used Dirac yet however. I know you have had some nice Anthem AVPs of late.

With regards to this post, I have a 4700 and use 200WPC for all my 9 channels with external AMPs. I think the Denon does a great job. So much that I wonder what I would replace it with if it died (I hope it doesn't die). Along the lines of the commodity comment, I wondered if a 3800 with pre outs adequate for my 5.2.4 setup would essentially be no worst than the 4 of 6 series... Or even reaching for an A1H makes zero sense if only using 9 channels! But for the OP, I'd see if you can find a Monolith 7x or an Outlaw 7700 or 7500 used and keep that sucker forever and then use the 3800 in processing mode.

Best of luck. You will probably enjoy either option.
For practical purposes I would say it is more or less a commodity.... I had been to many so called high end dealers and trade shows that demo their expensive systems including amps and speakers that cost >50K each and when I returned home to listen my own I was not disappointed at all. In fact, unless one has rooms comparable to those high end demo rooms, one ought to be happier with their own gear in their medium size rooms.

That's just me, I know others seem to truly believe they heard better sound quality if they spend more on their processors even when it is very obvious they were affected by all sorts of bias and the really powerful Placebo effect. One example, if you ever visit the AVSF Anthem AVM/AVR thread you will see that many opted for the AVM90 that is listed at double the price of the AVM70 felt the 90 sounded so much better that pretty much implied unless one is deaf, one would hear the much better sound quality for $3000 to $4000 when the two has virtually the same specs and ought to perform equally the same to humans if used for something like 7.1.6, even the RC system is identical. But no, even my respected Theo and Gene (probably not Gene actually..) would seem so strongly believe what they heard was real and yet I don't believe he tried and pass any credibly done DBT.;)

Unless someone can link me to some credible source that includes blind listening test results, I would continue to believe AVPs/AVRs at the midrange price points, such as your X4800H can be treated as "commodity" that one can just choose based on specs, measurements, feature sets for real world use. Now once you get into aesthetic, matching furniture, rooms, user friendliness, expandability, even visible build quality etc., then of course it is a different story. Say if I have too much money I would get something else than my AVM70 lol.. Still, I might then just grab an AV10 but not one of those 25-35K Trinnov, as those things would likely drive me nuts trying to set it up to my satisfaction so it's not about money, it's about being lazy, avoidance..., too old for serious toys like those.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
For practical purposes I would say it is more or less a commodity.... I had been to many so called high end dealers and trade shows that demo their expensive systems including amps and speakers that cost >50K each and when I returned home to listen my own I was not disappointed at all. In fact, unless one has rooms comparable to those high end demo rooms, one ought to be happier with their own gear in their medium size rooms.

That's just me, I know others seem to truly believe they heard better sound quality if they spend more on their processors even when it is very obvious they were affected by all sorts of bias and the really powerful Placebo effect. One example, if you ever visit the AVSF Anthem AVM/AVR thread you will see that many opted for the AVM90 that is listed at double the price of the AVM70 felt the 90 sounded so much better that pretty much implied unless one is deaf, one would hear the much better sound quality for $3000 to $4000 when the two has virtually the same specs and ought to perform equally the same to humans if used for something like 7.1.6, even the RC system is identical. But no, even my respected Theo and Gene (probably not Gene actually..) would seem so strongly believe what they heard was real and yet I don't believe he tried and pass any credibly done DBT.;)

Unless someone can link me to some credible source that includes blind listening test results, I would continue to believe AVPs/AVRs at the midrange price points, such as your X4800H can be treated as "commodity" that one can just choose based on specs, measurements, feature sets for real world use. Now once you get into aesthetic, matching furniture, rooms, user friendliness, expandability, even visible build quality etc., then of course it is a different story. Say if I have too much money I would get something else than my AVM70 lol.. Still, I might then just grab an AV10 but not one of those 25-35K Trinnov, as those things would likely drive me nuts trying to set it up to my satisfaction so it's not about money, it's about being lazy, avoidance..., too old for serious toys like those.
Who needs double-blind tests when you can have YouTubers and their 3 friends telling you that they heard all the difference in the world? :D

Somebody can post that Bose is awesome on YouTube, and people will believe it.
 

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