Denon setup & calibration questions

R

RayTrace77

Audiophyte
Hi All,

Apologies for the long post, figured I'd make a post as I feel like giving up with this stuff, think I need to start from scratch again as I think there's important things I missed but want to get the calibration steps down. There is lots I want to say but will try and keep it more concise and short, if you want to skip to the questions I have scroll to bottom.

Setup:
  • 1 x Denon AVC X4700H (Using the 0 - 98 scale on the receiver typical listening levels are between 60 - 70)
  • 2 x Monitor Audio Bronze 6 Towers (FL, FR)
    • Tweeters are at ear level
    • Plugged
    • Very slightly towed in, kept 210mm from wall behind them
  • 2 x Monitor Audio Bronze 1 Bookshelf (RL, RR)
    • Tweeters are at ear level
    • Plugged
    • On speaker stands
  • 1 x Monitor Audio Bronze Centre (C)
    • We have a glass TV stand, the Center is in-between 2 of the shelves (which I know is very bad)
    • Rubber Feet added to front so it's angled and the tweeters are facing our faces
    • Sound dampening foam added behind it
  • 2 x SVS PB3000 (ports plugged)
  • Purchased the Audyssey MultEQ iOS app
  • Layout below:
    • Ignore the staircase area
    • Floor in the living room is carpet
    • Floor in the Dining Room is tiled
    • Numbers are in Meters
    • Height from floor to ceiling is around 10ft
    • Arrows in front of the speakers show which position they are facing.
    • MLP is the single seater sofa, SLP is the seat to the left of it

  • Product Rectangle Font Schematic Parallel

Problems I had recently:
  • The Mandalorian season 3 episode 1, the action sequence at the beginning and the action sequence towards the end (26m), the music was too loud, the horned instruments had spikes which were a bit too loud and harsh on the ears.
  • The Mandalorian season 3 credits music seems to get very loud as well.

Originally in mid 2021:
  • Ran Audyssey cal, 8 points and used it's Dual Sub EQ.
  • In the MultEQ I set the MultEQ Filter Frequency Range to 0 for the LFE channel and use the PEQ's on the SVS app to adjust the subs so the tone sweeps sounded as linear as I could get them up to 80hz.
  • All speakers at set to small, crossover for all is at 80hz
  • Turned off Midrange Compensation for all (Front, Centre and Surround)
  • Turned off Dynamic Volume
  • Turned off LFC
  • Used the Curve Editor on the MultEQ app to do the Fronts, then Surrounds, then Centre
  • Manually measured speaker distance to MLP with measuring tape and inputted those values into the MultEQ app "Speaker Detection Results"
  • Adjusted the Level (dB) in the MultEQ Speaker Detection Results when I was doing listening tests.
  • Have found the living room has bad or over resonance in the 100-400hz ranges so dipping that area greatly helped and confirmed it with films like Tron Legacy (around 41 min mark when crowds are cheering and the stage announcer is speaking to everyone)

Lost count of how much time I've spent doing listening tests with the same scenes of TV Shows or Movies or tone sweeps till ear fatigue sets in, over time I've edited the MultEQ curves and for a long while now things have sounded great, recently with The Mandalorian season 3 there was a couple of times I was asked to turn the volume down (listening at 70) which makes me go back and look at what was wrong.

Typically when something sounds off or I get asked to turn the volume down I would listen to exactly where the problem is (find the minute/second marker), I would then extract the audio channels from the file into WAV tracks, load those into a DAW (FL Studio), put a visual equalizer on the main output and find where the peaks were in that section of audio, apply EQ to where I think the problem is and listen, then I would then adjust the curve on the MultEQ app to dip in that area which helped greatly with various tests and especially when I was adjusting the centre channel which I spent a whole day doing.

Watched Audyssey Room Correction Performance Tips for Your Denon/Marantz Receiver - YouTube with Gene and Theo which has given me some ideas to try, along with finding out Audssey has a bug with pre 2022 receivers setting the wrong time alignment doesn't help, the calculation to fix this was explained but I honestly don't know how to do those calculations (if FL is showing at 2.7m I don't know how to do to calculation to correct that distance). I did also find out about MultEQ-X which has the corrections built into the app although it is a steep price for a license. I want to start from scratch again as I think I have a lot more "ear" experience with what I will need to listen for and adjust, however I want to make sure I get the step by step process down so the fundamentals are done right at least.


  • Original Room Correction Results with no adjustments/editing (this was before I turned off Midrange Compensation as well):
    • After reading the specs on the Bronze 6 towers I have found the crossover on them is at 2.5khz where it looks like they already have a dip there built in to them.
    • Colorfulness Slope Rectangle Font Parallel
  • What I've been using for a long time now:
    • Rectangle Slope Font Plot Parallel
    • Light Black Slope Rectangle Font

Something I don't understand while editing the Curve Editor is when I dip above 1khz it seems to make areas around 100hz and below rise ? (like in the 2 pictures above), I don't think it's supposed to have a seesaw like affect so not sure what's happening there ?


Steps I have so far to start from scratch and questions:
  1. Reset Subs to factory default.
  2. Due to the room layout and placement the only speakers I can change location of a bit are the front ones (FL, FR and SUB at the front)
  3. Connect up the Denon mic to X4700H and run the Audyssey calibration for 8 points.
    1. For dual subs Gene and Theo in their video advised when using the Audyssey app which makes you lower sub level keep it in the upper Green area and then raise sub level afterwards by around 5db.
    2. Recline sofas around where the mic will be placed
    3. Don't go further than 2ft from the MLP or around 450-500mm (I think Theo said a bit less than 2ft)
    4. Use tripod with mic mounted to it
  4. Turn off Midrange Compensation
  5. Turn off Dynamic Volume and LFC
  6. At this point I think I would want to correct the distances from speakers to MLP which I think should also fix the time delay ?
    1. I think 1 solution was to send the cal to the receiver and then go onto the receiver and set the distance values there ?
    2. Other option is to get a license for MultEQ-X which applies those corrections automatically.
  7. Once time delay is set I don't know how to confirm/measure this ?, do I need to learn REW and use a mic to check this before proceeding any further ?
  8. Would I now start tone sweeps and listen at the MLP to determine if there is any phasing/mode issues ?
    1. To fix phase I would need to adjust the speaker distance setting in MultEQ ? or physically move the speaker ?
      1. The subs have a Phase setting which allows me to go from 0 - 180 I think.
    2. Mode issues I think can only really be fixed by speaker placement ?
  9. Would I now do listening tests with scenes I'm familiar with ?, adjusting the curves in the MultEQ app for the Fronts, then Centre and then Surrounds to taste ?

Do apologise for the long post, any help would be most appreciated.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Hi All,

Apologies for the long post, figured I'd make a post as I feel like giving up with this stuff, think I need to start from scratch again as I think there's important things I missed but want to get the calibration steps down. There is lots I want to say but will try and keep it more concise and short, if you want to skip to the questions I have scroll to bottom.

Setup:
  • 1 x Denon AVC X4700H (Using the 0 - 98 scale on the receiver typical listening levels are between 60 - 70)
  • 2 x Monitor Audio Bronze 6 Towers (FL, FR)
    • Tweeters are at ear level
    • Plugged
    • Very slightly towed in, kept 210mm from wall behind them
  • 2 x Monitor Audio Bronze 1 Bookshelf (RL, RR)
    • Tweeters are at ear level
    • Plugged
    • On speaker stands
  • 1 x Monitor Audio Bronze Centre (C)
    • We have a glass TV stand, the Center is in-between 2 of the shelves (which I know is very bad)
    • Rubber Feet added to front so it's angled and the tweeters are facing our faces
    • Sound dampening foam added behind it
  • 2 x SVS PB3000 (ports plugged)
  • Purchased the Audyssey MultEQ iOS app
  • Layout below:
    • Ignore the staircase area
    • Floor in the living room is carpet
    • Floor in the Dining Room is tiled
    • Numbers are in Meters
    • Height from floor to ceiling is around 10ft
    • Arrows in front of the speakers show which position they are facing.
    • MLP is the single seater sofa, SLP is the seat to the left of it

  • Product Rectangle Font Schematic Parallel

Problems I had recently:
  • The Mandalorian season 3 episode 1, the action sequence at the beginning and the action sequence towards the end (26m), the music was too loud, the horned instruments had spikes which were a bit too loud and harsh on the ears.
  • The Mandalorian season 3 credits music seems to get very loud as well.

Originally in mid 2021:
  • Ran Audyssey cal, 8 points and used it's Dual Sub EQ.
  • In the MultEQ I set the MultEQ Filter Frequency Range to 0 for the LFE channel and use the PEQ's on the SVS app to adjust the subs so the tone sweeps sounded as linear as I could get them up to 80hz.
  • All speakers at set to small, crossover for all is at 80hz
  • Turned off Midrange Compensation for all (Front, Centre and Surround)
  • Turned off Dynamic Volume
  • Turned off LFC
  • Used the Curve Editor on the MultEQ app to do the Fronts, then Surrounds, then Centre
  • Manually measured speaker distance to MLP with measuring tape and inputted those values into the MultEQ app "Speaker Detection Results"
  • Adjusted the Level (dB) in the MultEQ Speaker Detection Results when I was doing listening tests.
  • Have found the living room has bad or over resonance in the 100-400hz ranges so dipping that area greatly helped and confirmed it with films like Tron Legacy (around 41 min mark when crowds are cheering and the stage announcer is speaking to everyone)

Lost count of how much time I've spent doing listening tests with the same scenes of TV Shows or Movies or tone sweeps till ear fatigue sets in, over time I've edited the MultEQ curves and for a long while now things have sounded great, recently with The Mandalorian season 3 there was a couple of times I was asked to turn the volume down (listening at 70) which makes me go back and look at what was wrong.

Typically when something sounds off or I get asked to turn the volume down I would listen to exactly where the problem is (find the minute/second marker), I would then extract the audio channels from the file into WAV tracks, load those into a DAW (FL Studio), put a visual equalizer on the main output and find where the peaks were in that section of audio, apply EQ to where I think the problem is and listen, then I would then adjust the curve on the MultEQ app to dip in that area which helped greatly with various tests and especially when I was adjusting the centre channel which I spent a whole day doing.

Watched Audyssey Room Correction Performance Tips for Your Denon/Marantz Receiver - YouTube with Gene and Theo which has given me some ideas to try, along with finding out Audssey has a bug with pre 2022 receivers setting the wrong time alignment doesn't help, the calculation to fix this was explained but I honestly don't know how to do those calculations (if FL is showing at 2.7m I don't know how to do to calculation to correct that distance). I did also find out about MultEQ-X which has the corrections built into the app although it is a steep price for a license. I want to start from scratch again as I think I have a lot more "ear" experience with what I will need to listen for and adjust, however I want to make sure I get the step by step process down so the fundamentals are done right at least.


  • Original Room Correction Results with no adjustments/editing (this was before I turned off Midrange Compensation as well):
    • After reading the specs on the Bronze 6 towers I have found the crossover on them is at 2.5khz where it looks like they already have a dip there built in to them.
    • Colorfulness Slope Rectangle Font Parallel
  • What I've been using for a long time now:
    • Rectangle Slope Font Plot Parallel
    • Light Black Slope Rectangle Font

Something I don't understand while editing the Curve Editor is when I dip above 1khz it seems to make areas around 100hz and below rise ? (like in the 2 pictures above), I don't think it's supposed to have a seesaw like affect so not sure what's happening there ?


Steps I have so far to start from scratch and questions:
  1. Reset Subs to factory default.
  2. Due to the room layout and placement the only speakers I can change location of a bit are the front ones (FL, FR and SUB at the front)
  3. Connect up the Denon mic to X4700H and run the Audyssey calibration for 8 points.
    1. For dual subs Gene and Theo in their video advised when using the Audyssey app which makes you lower sub level keep it in the upper Green area and then raise sub level afterwards by around 5db.
    2. Recline sofas around where the mic will be placed
    3. Don't go further than 2ft from the MLP or around 450-500mm (I think Theo said a bit less than 2ft)
    4. Use tripod with mic mounted to it
  4. Turn off Midrange Compensation
  5. Turn off Dynamic Volume and LFC
  6. At this point I think I would want to correct the distances from speakers to MLP which I think should also fix the time delay ?
    1. I think 1 solution was to send the cal to the receiver and then go onto the receiver and set the distance values there ?
    2. Other option is to get a license for MultEQ-X which applies those corrections automatically.
  7. Once time delay is set I don't know how to confirm/measure this ?, do I need to learn REW and use a mic to check this before proceeding any further ?
  8. Would I now start tone sweeps and listen at the MLP to determine if there is any phasing/mode issues ?
    1. To fix phase I would need to adjust the speaker distance setting in MultEQ ? or physically move the speaker ?
      1. The subs have a Phase setting which allows me to go from 0 - 180 I think.
    2. Mode issues I think can only really be fixed by speaker placement ?
  9. Would I now do listening tests with scenes I'm familiar with ?, adjusting the curves in the MultEQ app for the Fronts, then Centre and then Surrounds to taste ?

Do apologise for the long post, any help would be most appreciated.
I consider this post a "winner" because it provided the information for people who may be willing to help. Most of the time people would ask typical questions like, how much power I need, can my avrxyz power my 4 ohm speakers etc., without telling us their listening habit, distances, speaker impedance/phase angle curves.

With so much info provided, it will take time (for me anyway), to do a serious response. For now, try to stay away from most of the YT videos on Audyssey, the app as many of those could be misleading for a variety of reasons. If you are interested, take a read of the thread I created, for the multeq editor app users to share their experience, good or bad.

(2) The Audyssey MultEQ Editor app users thread (with facts and tips) | Audioholics Home Theater Forums
 
R

RayTrace77

Audiophyte
@PENG

Thanks for the response, I actually came across that thread you linked when I was Googling around and have read through some of it.

Had some more information I thought I would add:
  • Have purchased a UMIK-1 mic which will be arriving in the next few days.
    • Will download the calibration files from miniDSP's website using the mic's serial number once I receive it.
    • I've got a laptop with HDMI out to use.
    • Will install REW and the ASIO4ALL drivers.
    • I've got a REW/UMIK-1 starter/setup guide that was created by a member on another forum (I think) which seems to be easy to follow, haven't read through all of it yet.
  • Some other times I've had problems with it being too loud:
    • Mostly we've noticed it with music in Star Wars films and more recently shows like Mandalorian (season 3 episode 1, 26 mins in there is a battle sequence, also the end credits music itself can get quote loud)
    • Also noticed it in Spider Man No Way Home, I think towards the end during the action sequence involving a battle around a tower ?, Spider Man and Electro, when Electro speaks his voice is in the fronts and surrounds and that was very loud.
    • Mad Max Fury Road, very beginning dialogue, it's in all speakers and is often quite loud.
 
-Jim-

-Jim-

Audioholic General
At first blush, source material levels vary so you cannot just set the volume to an arbitrary value and expect the same results over various programming and /or sources. Even between episodes the mix can be hotter in one sequence than others depending on how the Audio Engineer put it together for final production.

If I were you I'd ignore the room correction results in the App (the "after" is only a hoped for result and not a measured reality.) You should get a calibrated microphone and start using REW. That way when you tweak the curve in the App, you can see what the result really is.

I hope this is helpful.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Just a quick note that at 70 on the absolute scale (-10 on relative scale) is quite loud....I rarely turn mine up that loud unless the source level itself is lacking.
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
With no real early reflection points, I'd toe the speakers in and rerun audyssey (without knowing the detailed measurement, it's just a suggestion).
 
R

RayTrace77

Audiophyte
@-Jim- , completely agree, whenever I start watching any content I try to gauge how the audio mix sounds as early as I can to set the appropriate volume and agree it can change from scene to scene and depending on how the engineer was feeling that day and how they mixed it. The more thought I give the situation the more I‘m sure I needed to purchased a mic and setup REW to start sorting out the problems instead of trying it by ear. UMIK-1 is arriving soon so will get stuck into REW and start getting some graphs done hopefully.

@lovinthehd, -10 from ref is loud I agree, before I started changing the curves I would often be at 62 or 65, I think perhaps the large wide dips in the mid range across all speakers is the reason I’ve been able to increase the volume ?, I know for sure when I dipped in the 300hz for all speakers it lowered the perceived loudness. For the most part most content at 70 sounds good (though Blu-Ray mixes are often at 65 or 67.5 most of the time, it’s more so streaming services I try to listen at 70), it’s loud-ish and definitely some scenes get the heart racing more as the sound is louder and more intense. When I turn the volume down from 70 it seems to take away from the immersion and punch the soundtrack has which makes we want to turn it to 70, but then action sequences which might have gunshots or music like rock music or horned instrumentation causes issues.

@everettT , I’ve purchased a UMIK-1 mic, will try and get some practice in with REW on what steps I need to do in the app to get the measurements I need and then try and check out what’s happening in the living room space.

Now I’ve purchased the mic I’m incredibly keen to see the graphs to see what is actually going on in the room.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
The audio mixes themselves may be more the issue than your setup.
 
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