Denon preout voltage

[Agent246]

I'm currently using a denon avr-x4300h, I'm thinking of adding an external amplifier. I was considering the outlaw 2220 but I'm seeing that the input voltage required is 1.6v to achieve full power into 8ohms. I contacted denon and they said the output voltage on their preout sections are only 1.2v. Does anyone know how big a difference this would make and maybe how much of that 200 watts I'd be able to tap into?

 

[PENG]

I'm currently using a denon avr-x4300h, I'm thinking of adding an external amplifier. I was considering the outlaw 2220 but I'm seeing that the input voltage required is 1.6v to achieve full power into 8ohms. I contacted denon and they said the output voltage on their preout sections are only 1.2v. Does anyone know how big a difference this would make and maybe how much of that 200 watts I'd be able to tap into?

The X4300H is good for that, 100% sure!! Those 1st line customer support reps might have been just reading the numbers from the owner's manuals. Denon, Marantz, and many other manufacturers typically specify 1.2 V without stating the conditions of such measurements so it means very little. Yamaha typically specify just 1.0 V, but sometimes they may also state 2.0 V as the maximum, Onkyo probably specify just 1.0 V as well.

You should ignore those numbers and go with numbers actually measured on the bench by people like Gene, owner of this site, or Audiosciencereview.com's.

@gene (if you want to read his stuff, try searching for his recent reviews that includes bench measurements) has mentioned in his review many times that Denon or Marantz AVRs usually cold output more than 2 V, could be as high as 4 V or even a little higher, at clipping.

There is absolutely no issue with the AVR-X4300 driving the Outlaw 2220 to it's rated 200 W 8 ohms, because the X4300H pre outs can do at least 3.5 to 4 v before clipping.

Again, those customer support 1st line agents don't, or won't tell you more than what the manual says, unfortunately, what's on the manuals are usually too brief as they are intended for customers who most likely have very basic understanding of audio specs.

 

[highfigh]

Preamp output should be shown in the full spec sheet.

 

[Agent246]

The X4300H is good for that, 100% sure!! Those 1st line customer support reps might have been just reading the numbers from the owner's manuals. Denon, Marantz, and many other manufacturers typically specify 1.2 V without stating the conditions of such measurements so it means very little. Yamaha typically specify just 1.0 V, but sometimes they may also state 2.0 V as the maximum, Onkyo probably specify just 1.0 V as well.

You should ignore those numbers and go with numbers actually measured on the bench by people like Gene, owner of this site, or Audiosciencereview.com's.

@gene (if you want to read his stuff, try searching for his recent reviews that includes bench measurements) has mentioned in his review many times that Denon or Marantz AVRs usually cold output more than 2 V, could be as high as 4 V or even a little higher, at clipping.

There is absolutely no issue with the AVR-X4300 driving the Outlaw 2220 to it's rated 200 W 8 ohms, because the X4300H pre outs can do at least 3.5 to 4 v before clipping.

Again, those customer support 1st line agents don't, or won't tell you more than what the manual says, unfortunately, what's on the manuals are usually too brief as they are intended for customers who most likely have very basic understanding of audio specs.

Thank you very much for your reply, it is greatly appreciated

 

[lovinthehd]

Preamp output should be shown in the full spec sheet.

They indicate a nominal output of 1.2V in their manuals generally as was probably what the (generally useless) phone customer support said. As Peng mentioned in testing they've demonstrated many times they can do well beyond that. Be nice if they included conditions of the spec, tho.

 

[Agent246]

They indicate a nominal output of 1.2V in their manuals generally as was probably what the (generally useless) phone customer support said. As Peng mentioned in testing they've demonstrated many times they can do well beyond that. Be nice if they included conditions of the spec, tho.

Thank you very much for your response

 

[lovinthehd]

Thank you very much for your response

I just wouldn't worry about it. Maybe @ryanosaur can confirm with his similar Marantz avr with his Outlaw amps....

 

[everettT]

I just wouldn't worry about it. Maybe @ryanosaur can confirm with his similar Marantz avr with his Outlaw amps....

I'm using the 4700 with the Outlaw 2220s for my fronts and a crown XLS2500 for a sub and have no problems driving either to full power.

 

[ryanosaur]

Thank you very much for your response

Indeed. No issue driving Outlaw 2200 or Hypex Amps. Not a thing to be overly concerned with.

 

[Agent246]

Good to know, thank you very much

 

[Agent246]

I'm using the 4700 with the Outlaw 2220s for my fronts and a crown XLS2500 for a sub and have no problems driving either to full power.

Awesome, that's good to know

 

[PENG]

Preamp output should be shown in the full spec sheet.

Agreed, they should come up with a standard, such as the popular one that Gene has been using for years, and Amir too in recent year. That is, something like the following:

Unbalanced (RCA): 2 V, or Balanced (XLR) 4.0 V, output impedance <1 kOhm, at 0.01% THD+N, that is -80 dB, or SINAD 80 dB, into input impedance >5 kohm
and, it would be nice to provide a "maximum" output spec too, such as unbalanced: 3.5 V, balanced 7.0 V at 0.1% THD+N

That's not a lot to ask, but given that they have not done so for so long, there is virtually no hope to see such semi detailed pre out specs. Very few manufacturers are providing such details, not even McIntosh and other much more expensive preamps, though a few do provide some bare minimum (imo) details.

 

[highfigh]

Agreed, they should come up with a standard, such as the popular one that Gene has been using for years, and Amir too in recent year. That is, something like the following:

Unbalanced (RCA): 2 V, or Balanced (XLR) 4.0 V, output impedance <1 kOhm, at 0.01% THD+N, that is -80 dB, or SINAD 80 dB, into input impedance >5 kohm
and, it would be nice to provide a "maximum" output spec too, such as unbalanced: 3.5 V, balanced 7.0 V at 0.1% THD+N

That's not a lot to ask, but given that they have not done so for so long, there is virtually no hope to see such semi detailed pre out specs. Very few manufacturers are providing such details, not even McIntosh and other much more expensive preamps, though a few do provide some bare minimum (imo) details.

That wasn't a recommendation for manufacturers- I was telling the OP that it should be in the manual, likely in the full specs area.

However, car audio uses 4V output and has since the 1990s, but it's more for minimizing noise and since all car power amps have input sensitivity controls, it's a no-brainer to do that. Consumer grade power amps don't always have those. They should, but just like car audio DIYers, too many people would crank them up, thinking that louder is better and full power is reached by cranking the input to WOT.

It would be very easy to use a test tone and LEDs for setting the maximum/proper/unclipped input level- pro gear uses this and has for many years.

I'm not a fan of using one frequency for setting/measuring levels- if the input sensitivity only uses 1KHz, that stage of the power amp will be overdriven by wide-range output at the chosen level, regardless of the scale, unless it was designed for high dynamic headroom and even now, many aren't.

 

[highfigh]

They indicate a nominal output of 1.2V in their manuals generally as was probably what the (generally useless) phone customer support said. As Peng mentioned in testing they've demonstrated many times they can do well beyond that. Be nice if they included conditions of the spec, tho.

I agree- it goes along with the watering down of output power specs- used to be that if something didn't meet the FTC spec, it needed to state this and if the manufacturer wanted to use their own specs, they also had to show the FTC specs, too. They could add some spec that wasn't included, which Sansui did- they added Slew Rate, which most consumers didn't understand but they still had to show that their amplifiers outputted xx Watts/channel, 20-20KHz, no more than .xxx% THD (this was before THD+N), both/all channels driven. TIM distortion was also included by most manufacturers but almost nobody stated power output at 1KHz until it was allowed and now, we see places like Beast Buy posting total output from all channels in small print on the shelf tags, without a breakout for each channel. But hey, this is 'Merica, where bigger is better.er.er.er......I hate asking questions at BB and having to explain what I'm asking for.

 

[PENG]

That wasn't a recommendation for manufacturers- I was telling the OP that it should be in the manual, likely in the full specs area.

Never said you did. But I think they should do better than the way it has been, no hope for that I guess.

However, car audio uses 4V output and has since the 1990s, but it's more for minimizing noise and since all car power amps have input sensitivity controls, it's a no-brainer to do that. Consumer grade power amps don't always have those. They should, but just like car audio DIYers, too many people would crank them up, thinking that louder is better and full power is reached by cranking the input to WOT.

I think you miss the point that just saying X V is not good, it would like the power output thing, that they can say 1000 W, that may be worse than another manufacturer's 200 W because such numbers depend to a large extent on the conditions under which it was measured.

It would be very easy to use a test tone and LEDs for setting the maximum/proper/unclipped input level- pro gear uses this and has for many years.

Not that easy, for one thing, we would need a universally accepted definition of clipping then..

I'm not a fan of using one frequency for setting/measuring levels- if the input sensitivity only uses 1KHz, that stage of the power amp will be overdriven by wide-range output at the chosen level, regardless of the scale, unless it was designed for high dynamic headroom and even now, many aren't.

Now you are talking, Can't argue that.. Manufacturers have too many reasons to not doing anything better.

 

[highfigh]

1) Never said you did. But I think they should do better than the way it has been, no hope for that I guess.

2) I think you miss the point that just saying X V is not good, it would like the power output thing, that they can say 1000 W, that may be worse than another manufacturer's 200 W because such numbers depend to a large extent on the conditions under which it was measured.

3) Not that easy, for one thing, we would need a universally accepted definition of clipping then..

4) Now you are talking, Can't argue that.. Manufacturers have too many reasons to not doing anything better.

WRT 1), the FTC is in charge of how specs are shown, but they have bigger fish to fry and it's not the 1970s anymore, so this isn't going to get their attention unless A LOT of people and business that are involved call or message them to complain about it being dishonest.

Point 2)- I think one of my comments addressed that.

Point 3)- We don't have a definition of 'clipping'? The THD spec being low eliminates a high degree of clipping all but eliminates the chances of clipping but measuring distortion in wideband tests makes clipping less likely, especially for power amplifiers. Preamp-level equipment should be able to produce/reproduce audio signals without distortion anyway.

Point 4)- manufacturers are like kids- they do things until they can no longer 'get away' with it.

 

[PENG]

WRT 1), the FTC is in charge of how specs are shown, but they have bigger fish to fry and it's not the 1970s anymore, so this isn't going to get their attention unless A LOT of people and business that are involved call or message them to complain about it being dishonest.

Point 2)- I think one of my comments addressed that.

Point 3)- We don't have a definition of 'clipping'? The THD spec being low eliminates a high degree of clipping all but eliminates the chances of clipping but measuring distortion in wideband tests makes clipping less likely, especially for power amplifiers. Preamp-level equipment should be able to produce/reproduce audio signals without distortion anyway.

Point 4)- manufacturers are like kids- they do things until they can no longer 'get away' with it.

Unless I missed, you covered a ton, but I didn't think you addressed the load spec. A preamp may be able to output 4V at 0.01% THD+N if the load is 10 kohm or higher, but may struggle with lower impedance. Everyone seems to pay attention to load impedance for power amp but not too many would pay enough attention to the same for preamps. This could be important for those using avrs as preamp especially if the avrs have no preamp mode.

 

[highfigh]

Unless I missed, you covered a ton, but I didn't think you addressed the load spec. A preamp may be able to output 4V at 0.01% THD+N if the load is 10 kohm or higher, but may struggle with lower impedance. Everyone seems to pay attention to load impedance for power amp but not too many would pay enough attention to the same for preamps. This could be important for those using avrs as preamp especially if the avrs have no preamp mode.

Loads for preamps are fairly consistent within the consumer or pro markets unless they don't specify load/output for XLR, balanced/quasi-balanced- they need to conform to the damned specs CORRECTLY and not put XLR on equipment when it won't be beneficial, stop adding it only to push boxes and stop adding to the confusion consumers experience when they read specs they don't understand. When amplifiers are designed for pro use and make it to the consumer market with the 'pro-sumer' moniker, it pisses me off. Pro and consumer equipment isn't really compatible- as an example, some Crown amps (I haven't used a lot of other brands in a long time) have settings for .775V and 1.4V input voltage- what does that tell ANYONE who has been told they need 4V output for their AVR/AVP to be a good one, but they were also told that they need a prosumer power amp? In the link below for the XLS Drive Core models, I see nothing about input impedance, but it's safe to assume Crown intends this (and other) amps to be used with equipment that IS compatible, but that equipment isn't really made for the consumer market.

https://www.crownaudio.com/en-US/product_documents/5055568_xlsdc2_mnl_print_050615-pdf-3c14253d-8643-4157-ba5d-cee9232d2a32

"If you can't impress them with logic, baffle them with BS" is still happening and it needs to stop.

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

[Verdinut]

Pro and consumer equipment isn't really compatible- as an example, some Crown amps (I haven't used a lot of other brands in a long time) have settings for .775V and 1.4V input voltage- what does that tell ANYONE who has been told they need 4V output for their AVR/AVP to be a good one, but they were also told that they need a prosumer power amp? In the link below for the XLS Drive Core models, I see nothing about input impedance, but it's safe to assume Crown intends this (and other) amps to be used with equipment that IS compatible, but that equipment isn't really made for the consumer market.

https://www.crownaudio.com/en-US/product_documents/5055568_xlsdc2_mnl_print_050615-pdf-3c14253d-8643-4157-ba5d-cee9232d2a32

"If you can't impress them with logic, baffle them with BS" is still happening and it needs to stop.

This is why we can't have nice things.

You say that pro audio Crown equipment isn't really made for the consumer market, but several members here have been using them on their home audio systems.

By the way, QSC Digital Cinema amplifier series is indeed compatible with consumer audio products. Their input impedance is specified as follows: 10K ohms unbalanced.
20K ohms balanced

 

[Golfx]

Thank you very much for your reply, it is greatly appreciated

You should trust PENG. He is our “professor” of EE.