Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Go for the RXA2070. I really like my 2060.

Yeah, if I were buying refurbished AVR from A4L, I would go for the A2070 for $800 w/ free shipping.

No, actually I would go for the A3070 for $180 more.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You're sure it's shutting down because of heat, and not just protesting your singing?

WHAT?

WHY.............YOU...............

 

[Ken32]

FWIW I just ran the 8 point xt32 and i have to save when comparing it to Direct mode, I’m very impressed! It just sounds better. It lacks no details whatsoever, yet it makes my towers sound more lively than they previously did.

When i checked the setting it had corrected, it nailed my speaker distance to a T.

To me, Direct made my speakers sound like the band was playing behind a thin wall or a blanket. Dull to put it plain. Compared to Audyssey.

Audyssey makes them sound as if they are right in front of you with better punch and clarity. They just sound better overall.

 

[Ken32]

Regarding the temperature-touch-sensitivity, I bet we all have different thermo-receptors and different temperature sensitivities.

Just get 2 x 120mm fans and you should be okay.

My old Onkyo ran much hotter than this 6013. To the point where you couldn’t stand to touch it. (Same ventilation) 11 years later still works. Luck? Maybe. But with all the ventilation the Marantz has i may not need fans at all. Just my opinion.

 

[PENG]

My old Onkyo ran much hotter than this 6013. To the point where you couldn’t stand to touch it. (Same ventilation) 11 years later still works. Luck? Maybe. But with all the ventilation the Marantz has i may not need fans at all. Just my opinion.

You are right, it is not that you need it, but it is nice to have it if you want to extend its life while maintaining optimal performance.

 

[PENG]

I wonder if there is a way to verify your hypothesis of lower bias current in the Yamaha.

Not easily, It is just a possibility anyway, however remote possibility it is.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

FWIW I just ran the 8 point xt32 and i have to save when comparing it to Direct mode, I’m very impressed! It just sounds better. It lacks no details whatsoever, yet it makes my towers sound more lively than they previously did.

When i checked the setting it had corrected, it nailed my speaker distance to a T.

To me, Direct made my speakers sound like the band was playing behind a thin wall or a blanket. Dull to put it plain. Compared to Audyssey.

Audyssey makes them sound as if they are right in front of you with better punch and clarity. They just sound better overall.

Yup. Everyone is different and/or every system is different. No matter what Auto Room EQ we’re talking about, some will love and some will not.

Did you use Dynamic EQ ?

IIRC Audyssey will turn off Dynamic Volume and turn on Dynamic EQ (DEQ) by default.

DEQ will boost the bass and also slightly boost the treble depending on the total volume and offset.

 

[Ken32]

Yup. Everyone is different and/or every system is different. No matter what Auto Room EQ we’re talking about, some will love and some will not.

Did you use Dynamic EQ ?

IIRC Audyssey will turn off Dynamic Volume and turn on Dynamic EQ (DEQ) by default.

DEQ will boost the bass and also slightly boost the treble depending on the total volume and offset.

I’ve disabled Audyssey altogether. I’ve spent a few hours last night critically listening to music and trying AEQ vs Manual. I definitely prefer manual.

Although, this unit seems to be lacking somewhere, i can’t quite figure out where just yet. The eq system in general may be my issue. Not sure.... Maybe i need to purchase the iPhone Audyssey app.

I’ll be placing an order this week of the Yamaha a1080 to directly compare.

There was a few times last night i was scratching my head asking myself “is this unit really worth 800 bucks?” I sure wouldn’t pay retail price for it!

I love a lot of the features it offers, and not so much on some other things.

 

[PENG]

I’ve disabled Audyssey altogether. I’ve spent a few hours last night critically listening to music and trying AEQ vs Manual. I definitely prefer manual.

Although, this unit seems to be lacking somewhere, i can’t quite figure out where just yet. The eq system in general may be my issue. Not sure.... Maybe i need to purchase the iPhone Audyssey app.

I’ll be placing an order this week of the Yamaha a1080 to directly compare.

There was a few times last night i was scratching my head asking myself “is this unit really worth 800 bucks?” I sure wouldn’t pay retail price for it!

I love a lot of the features it offers, and not so much on some other things.

In my experience even XT32 is not capable of dialing in the subwoofers with tower speakers that have good response down to 30 Hz. I found the only way to get them dialed in to produce the flattest possible response in my room is to try different XO. All else being equal, 80 and 90 Hz seem to work best in my room. After that, you can add 2 to 4 dB to the subwoofer level to your liking if you prefer the effect. Apparently Anthem ARC would ramp up the low bass to try and simulate room effect, I don't buy that approach at all and I much prefer Audyssey's Editor App approach that gives some (not a whole lot either) control to the user.

Until you have the App, the best you can do now is to make sure you run all 8 positions, follow instructions to the letter. Once that's done try the following as a starting point:

- Set front and center to small (the surrounds will follow).
- Set front and center XO to90 Hz.
- Set surrounds, heights XO to 90 Hz or higher depending on their - 3 dB response.
- Set Dynamic EQ to "ON", Dyn vol to "Off"
- Set LPF for LFE to 120 Hz or higher.

Boost subwoofer(s) level by 3 dB.

Then just sit back and enjoy your favorite movies for at least a day, then you can start playing with different XO points such as 80 Hz, 100 Hz, but I wouldn't go below 80 Hz regardless of what speakers you have. When you have the App you can then play around more.

Manual EQ may be fun, but in theory I can't see how it can be better than auto, I don't care if it is Yamaha's parametric, let alone graphic. The approach is inherently inferior, though on a hit and miss basis it may work great in some instances that also would depend on certain conditions (star alignment of sort..) that are highly variable.

If after trying everything, you still think something is off, then you may as well move on to something different such as the RX-AXX80, because at that point, I think expectation bias would have set in..., so nothing else is going to fix it for you.

 

[snakeeyes]

In my experience even XT32 is not capable of dialing in the subwoofers with tower speakers that have good response down to 30 Hz. I found the only way to get them dialed in to produce the flattest possible response in my room is to try different XO. All else being equal, 80 and 90 Hz seem to work best in my room. After that, you can add 2 to 4 dB to the subwoofer level to your liking if you prefer the effect. Apparently Anthem ARC would ramp up the low bass to try and simulate room effect, I don't buy that approach at all and I much prefer Audyssey's Editor App approach that gives some (not a whole lot either) control to the user.

Until you have the App, the best you can do now is to make sure you run all 8 positions, follow instructions to the letter. Once that's done try the following as a starting point:

- Set front and center to small (the surrounds will follow).
- Set front and center XO to90 Hz.
- Set surrounds, heights XO to 90 Hz or higher depending on their - 3 dB response.
- Set Dynamic EQ to "ON", Dyn vol to "Off"
- Set LPF for LFE to 120 Hz or higher.

Boost subwoofer(s) level by 3 dB.

Then just sit back and enjoy your favorite movies for at least a day, then you can start playing with different XO points such as 80 Hz, 100 Hz, but I wouldn't go below 80 Hz regardless of what speakers you have. When you have the App you can then play around more.

Manual EQ may be fun, but in theory I can't see how it can be better than auto, I don't care if it is Yamaha's parametric, let alone graphic. The approach is inherently inferior, though on a hit and miss basis it may work great in some instances that also would depend on certain conditions (star alignment of sort..) that are highly variable.

If after trying everything, you still think something is off, then you may as well move on to something different such as the RX-AXX80, because at that point, I think expectation bias would have set in..., so nothing else is going to fix it for you.

It’s cool he is comparing both AVRs.

I think the scene in Pacific Rim where they are fighting in the city and using a battleship as a baseball bat has a good panning of bass heavy action across LCR and surrounds. I like that scene for adjusting subs.

 

[PENG]

It’s cool he is comparing both AVRs.

I think the scene in Pacific Rim where they are fighting in the city and using a battleship as a baseball bat has a good panning of bass heavy action across LCR and surrounds. I like that scene for adjusting subs.

It is a very time consuming process though, to do an apples to apples. On the other hand, if it is an apples to apples comparison, we already know that in pure direct the results is predictable. If Pacific Rim is used, it would be more like a memory test on top of being a highly subjective exercise to begin with.

 

[KEW]

It’s cool he is comparing both AVRs.

Yeah, looking forward to his results, but it makes sense to get Audyssey right before eliminating it from the picture.
Hopefully when he gets the 1080, he will have determined the best implementation of his 6013 for the comparison.
It is a perversion of sorts that it often makes sense to roll-off full-range speakers at 80Hz. It is a bit of a tough pill to swallow after buying speakers which offer solid bass!
I'd guess easily 1/3 of the cost of a full-range speaker goes into getting response down to the mid-twenties instead of ~40Hz. That is not so much an Audyssey thing, it is just that you can optimize location of your subwoofers and they can probably do 30Hz much cleaner at higher volumes without compromising the upper bass! ...figure your woofer won't do it's best job at mid/upper bass when it it pushing its stroke limits (to make 30Hz loud).

 

[snakeeyes]

Yeah, looking forward to his results, but it makes sense to get Audyssey right before eliminating it from the picture.
Hopefully when he gets the 1080, he will have determined the best implementation of his 6013 for the comparison.
It is a perversion of sorts that it often makes sense to roll-off full-range speakers at 80Hz. It is a bit of a tough pill to swallow after buying speakers which offer solid bass!
I'd guess easily 1/3 of the cost of a full-range speaker goes into getting response down to the mid-twenties instead of ~40Hz. That is not so much an Audyssey thing, it is just that you can optimize location of your subwoofers and they can probably do 30Hz much cleaner at higher volumes without compromising the upper bass! ...figure your woofer won't do it's best job at mid/upper bass when it it pushing its stroke limits (to make 30Hz loud).

I don’t think you neuter towers capable of 30hz until you have dual subs. (Don’t reduce to only 1 LF)

The bigger upgrade issue is finding a good center. There are lots of great towers and bookshelves but not all centers are created equally. I’m curious about the Paradigm 800F with 500C that James reviewed in Dec.

 

[KEW]

I don’t think you neuter towers capable of 30hz until you have dual subs. (Don’t reduce to only 1 LF)

The bigger upgrade issue is finding a good center. There are lots of great towers and bookshelves but not all centers are created equally. I’m curious about the Paradigm 800F with 500C that James reviewed in Dec.

Good point!
I am spoiled on that count - I forget that one sub is a possible scenario! LOL!

 

[PENG]

I don’t think you neuter towers capable of 30hz until you have dual subs. (Don’t reduce to only 1 LF)

The bigger upgrade issue is finding a good center. There are lots of great towers and bookshelves but not all centers are created equally. I’m curious about the Paradigm 800F with 500C that James reviewed in Dec.

I went from 1, to 2, 3, eventually 5 subs, cover 4 corners and rear middle, and have to set crossover points in the 80 and 90 Hz to get the bass to play nice. Unless you have a near perfect room, chances are higher that the towers and subs tend to neuter, than helping each other, with our without REQ. Audyssey helps, but would help a lot more at higher XOs, in my setup. I believe many users would not know it unless than do measurements with REW/Umik-1 or similar software/hardware.

If you are at least as curious as I am, it would cost you less than $100 to find out and see for yourself.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I’ve disabled Audyssey altogether. I’ve spent a few hours last night critically listening to music and trying AEQ vs Manual. I definitely prefer manual.

Although, this unit seems to be lacking somewhere, i can’t quite figure out where just yet. The eq system in general may be my issue. Not sure.... Maybe i need to purchase the iPhone Audyssey app.

I’ll be placing an order this week of the Yamaha a1080 to directly compare.

There was a few times last night i was scratching my head asking myself “is this unit really worth 800 bucks?” I sure wouldn’t pay retail price for it!

Like I said, some people don't like the sound of any kind of AUTO room EQ.

When I was using Denon, I always used Audyssey BYPASS L/R + DEQ. This bypass Audyssey (for the Main Front L/R) and just use DEQ.

If you don't like Auto Room EQ and want to use Manual EQ, then you definitely want something with PARAMETRIC EQ (Yamaha, Classe, Bryston, DataSAT, ATI, Theta Digital).

Denon and Marantz only have the GRAPHIC EQ, which you DON'T want to use. Gene has been complaining about the Denon/Marantz continued use of the basic Graphic EQ, but I guess they don't care.

 

[snakeeyes]

I went from 1, to 2, 3, eventually 5 subs, cover 4 corners and rear middle, and have to set crossover points in the 80 and 90 Hz to get the bass to play nice. Unless you have a near perfect room, chances are higher that the towers and subs tend to neuter, than helping each other, with our without REQ. Audyssey helps, but would help a lot more at higher XOs, in my setup. I believe many users would not know it unless than do measurements with REW/Umik-1 or similar software/hardware.

If you are at least as curious as I am, it would cost you less than $100 to find out and see for yourself.

I have a matched pair of subs but if I move them from one room to another, there’s no guarantee my long haired boss will allow them back in the living room. LOL

 

[Ken32]

I don’t think you neuter towers capable of 30hz until you have dual subs. (Don’t reduce to only 1 LF)

The bigger upgrade issue is finding a good center. There are lots of great towers and bookshelves but not all centers are created equally. I’m curious about the Paradigm 800F with 500C that James reviewed in Dec.

I purchased the same pair of speakers before i ended up with my B&W setup. When i got them home one of the speakers literally fell apart out of the box ( every single speaker fell out of the cabinet.) The other speaker had glue all over the top of it that would not come off. Needless to say, paradigm acted like idiots about it. Like i was the one who forgot to put the screws in the cabinets.

After I fixed the speakers back (used my own screws) I was very underwhelmed by what i was listening to. To the point where i was offended they asked 1700 for a pair. I figured while i had them, I'd directly compare them to the polk audio RTI A7's i had.

Needless to say, the Polk speakers (to my ears) absolutely took the cake in terms of overall sound quality and build quality. If they had as strong of mid-range as my B&W towers, I would have kept them. Just my .02

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I purchased the same pair of speakers before i ended up with my B&W setup. When i got them home one of the speakers literally fell apart out of the box ( every single speaker fell out of the cabinet.) The other speaker had glue all over the top of it that would not come off. Needless to say, paradigm acted like idiots about it. Like i was the one who forgot to put the screws in the cabinets.

After I fixed the speakers back (used my own screws) I was very underwhelmed by what i was listening to. To the point where i was offended that asked 1700 for a pair. I figured while i had them, I'd directly compare them to the polk audio RTI A7's i had.

Needless to say, the Polk speakers (to my ears) absolutely took the cake in terms of overall sound quality and build quality. If they had as strong of mid-range as my B&W towers, I would have kept them. Just my .02

So what is missing in the sound now? The bass?

You're not using a subwoofer?

 

[snakeeyes]

I purchased the same pair of speakers before i ended up with my B&W setup. When i got them home one of the speakers literally fell apart out of the box ( every single speaker fell out of the cabinet.) The other speaker had glue all over the top of it that would not come off. Needless to say, paradigm acted like idiots about it. Like i was the one who forgot to put the screws in the cabinets.

After I fixed the speakers back (used my own screws) I was very underwhelmed by what i was listening to. To the point where i was offended that asked 1700 for a pair. I figured while i had them, I'd directly compare them to the polk audio RTI A7's i had.

Needless to say, the Polk speakers (to my ears) absolutely took the cake in terms of overall sound quality and build quality. If they had as strong of mid-range as my B&W towers, I would have kept them. Just my .02

Hmm. That’s disappointing. I’m thinking the Monitor Audio Silver center might be worth trying out. I’m also going to try KEF R series.