Denon DVD-3930CI Review

[ronnie 1.8]

OK, let's see. The filter was set to off. I tried changing it to on, and it did not help. RGB is normal, and I tried enhanced. The picture did change, but not the macroblocking. My contrast level is set to -1, but I don't think changing that to anything nearby will correct the macroblocking. Gene DellaSala noted that he noticed macroblocking to some extent on his 2930CI until he adjusted his gamma and got his black levels more accurate. I did notice my gamma settiings are all factory default, i.e., my installer did not adjust them at all. I need to ask him why he left them as is.

One thing I did, that to me is the most important factor here in understanding if the problem is a result of improper calibration, or the player itself, is I put the picture settings to 'std', which equal factory settings. The picture became more washed out, less saturated, black levels decreased, but the macroblocking was still obviously there. So I don't think it is caused by anything related to picture settings (calibration). I think the cause is the player itself. I'm now going to use component, and see what that yields.

If I do end up replacing the player, would it be worthwhile to take note of all the picture settings, and plug those into the new player? Or does each player calibrate differently? I've already replaced this 3930CI once, and have twice paid for a calibration. If I replace it a 2nd time, I don't want to pay for a third calibration. I wonder if I can just plug in my current settings to the new player.

 

[MACCA350]

I have not seen any macroblocking with any half decent DVD's, and very rarely even with the poorly encoded extras on some DVD's and some extremely bad C grade DVD's. And mind you I'm using a 2200(nowhere near the quality of the 3930ci) with a Infocus X1 DLP pj. When I go to the stores and see all the plasmas and LCD playing, all I see is Macroblocking and its horrid. I play a DVD on my PC's 22" LCD I still see Macroblocking(I should try hooking the 2200 up to the LCD screen and see what happens) but from what I've seen it seems to be exaggerated by those display types.
I've heard of people having issues with HDMI and they've found that going back to component gives them a better quality image, maybe doing this may help your situation. But seriously the 3930ci is one of the highest quality players on the planet and you should be having zero picture quality issues with it. So I really don't know what to say, but I hope it works out for you cause' there is nothing worse then not being happy with what your looking at.

cheers

 

[ronnie 1.8]

I have not seen any macroblocking with any half decent DVD's, and very rarely even with the poorly encoded extras on some DVD's and some extremely bad C grade DVD's. And mind you I'm using a 2200(nowhere near the quality of the 3930ci) with a Infocus X1 DLP pj. When I go to the stores and see all the plasmas and LCD playing, all I see is Macroblocking and its horrid. I play a DVD on my PC's 22" LCD I still see Macroblocking(I should try hooking the 2200 up to the LCD screen and see what happens) but from what I've seen it seems to be exaggerated by those display types.
I've heard of people having issues with HDMI and they've found that going back to component gives them a better quality image, maybe doing this may help your situation. But seriously the 3930ci is one of the highest quality players on the planet and you should be having zero picture quality issues with it. So I really don't know what to say, but I hope it works out for you cause' there is nothing worse then not being happy with what your looking at.

cheers

Very interesting. So I did change to component and watched a given 30 seconds in Polar Express (fyi, for those that have the DVD, from 2 minutes flat into the movie, for the next 30 seconds or so). Macroblocking was noticeably better, but still an issue. Went back to HDMI, and horrible macroblocking. So my plasma produces a fantastic picture w/ no macroblocking w/ my TiVo S3 via cable, so I must believe the plasma is still not contributing to the problem. I believe it could be the HDMI cable or the HDMI panel I ordered from Panasonic and installed (my plasma has no HDMI input stock, but does support via an approx $135 panel - just pull out the unused input 1 panel and replace). Since the 3930CI default picture settings produce the same macroblocking, I've ruled out the player's picture settings and poor calibration.

But I should be able to say it is positively the player, as I should not have ANY macroblocking w/ this player - even via component.

Hopefully someone with this player and a plasma will read this post and reply with their experience...

I'm still trying to determine if 3930CI's are expected to calibrate differently, or if I can document my settings, and plug them into a new 3930CI.

 

[ronnie 1.8]

So I really don't know what to say, but I hope it works out for you cause' there is nothing worse then not being happy with what your looking at.

cheers

I raise a toast to that!!!

 

[ronnie 1.8]

So right now my 3930CI is the only source I have running HDMI. However, my TiVo S3 has HDMI out. Earlier this week I purcashed 3 HDMI cables from Blue Jeans Cable, and a Radiient HDMI switch, as I only have 1 HDMI input in my monitor and I do not want to invest in another HDMI panel, though my plasma will support it. Which means when I replace the ridiculously priced Monster HDMI cable w/ the Blue Jeans HDMI cable, install the other HDMI cable in my TiVo, and run the HDMI switch to my plasma, that will allow me to test both the HDMI cable currently in use by my 3930CI, and the HDMI panel I installed in my plasma. If my TiVo S3 then produces the same picture as it does now via component (or better), I believe the only remaining potential cause of this horrid macroblocking is my 3930CI. Nice. I purchased the player from an authorized Denon dealer (Crutchfield), so should be able to replace it at no charge.

 

[MACCA350]

I played Sin City, Polar Express and Dances with Wolves and saw zero macroblocking, and I mean not even a hint, and this is on a 100" screen at 12foot away, I even looked at 2foot away and still nothing.

I tried hooking my PC 22" LCD up to the 2200 but the LCD only has D-Sub and DVI-D and I tried a VESA adapter to input component through D-Sub but no go.

cheers

 

[ronnie 1.8]

I played Sin City, Polar Express and Dances with Wolves and saw zero macroblocking, and I mean not even a hint, and this is on a 100" screen at 12foot away, I even looked at 2foot away and still nothing.

I tried hooking my PC 22" LCD up to the 2200 but the LCD only has D-Sub and DVI-D and I tried a VESA adapter to input component through D-Sub but no go.

cheers

That is very helpful, macca350. Thank you. What I describe as macroblocking is as follows. I see it primarily on walls, or the sky, or the floor. Anywhere where the shades of color change very very gradually. Rather than seeing the color gradually change shades, with no single perceptible change in shading, I see several random blocks of pixels that all have the same color or shade. If the scene is stationary long enough, i.e. 3-4 seconds, I can see the pixels dance about, all staying within the immediate area, but moving nonetheless. At the 2 minute 0 second mark of Polar Express, when the boy is coming down the stairs, the wall to the right (his left) has pink and green shades, and I'm certain that wall is not meant to be pink or green. The color overall is very accurate, but the pink and green I refer to is related only to the macroblocking. Just so I know macroblocking is what I think it is, is this what you know to be macroblocking? I appreciate your help with my troubleshooting...

 

[ronnie 1.8]

and this is on a 100" screen at 12foot away

cheers

Talk about filling your field of vision!! Nice.

 

[MACCA350]

What I describe as macroblocking is as follows. I see it primarily on walls, or the sky, or the floor. Anywhere where the shades of color change very very gradually. Rather than seeing the color gradually change shades, with no single perceptible change in shading, I see several random blocks of pixels that all have the same color or shade. If the scene is stationary long enough, i.e. 3-4 seconds, I can see the pixels dance about, all staying within the immediate area, but moving nonetheless.

Yes this is macroblocking, looks similar to a very poor highly compressed video, like those found on UTube. This is a good example with extremely bad macroblocking especially when he moves his head

At the 2 minute 0 second mark of Polar Express, when the boy is coming down the stairs, the wall to the right (his left) has pink and green shades, and I'm certain that wall is not meant to be pink or green. The color overall is very accurate, but the pink and green I refer to is related only to the macroblocking. Just so I know macroblocking is what I think it is, is this what you know to be macroblocking? I appreciate your help with my troubleshooting...

This sounds like Rainbowing, although I wouldn't have thought the Polar Express would have any of this, This site has some examples of the different types of video artifacts

cheers

 

[ronnie 1.8]

Yes this is macroblocking, looks similar to a very poor highly compressed video, like those found on UTube. This is a good example with extremely bad macroblocking especially when he moves his head

This sounds like Rainbowing, although I wouldn't have thought the Polar Express would have any of this, This site has some examples of the different types of video artifacts

cheers

OK, so your first example is of motion macroblocking, while the 2nd example is of static macroblocking. What I am experiencing is exactly what can be seen in the 2nd link, and in that link the artifact is named macroblocking.

Re: 'rainbowing' at the 2 min 0 sec mark of Polar Express, I believe that too is macroblocking. In researching the problem I have, I found some links of what macroblocking looked like, and found an image within Hotel Rwanda, where the wall was pinkish/greenish. Had the exact same behavior at 2 min 0 sec of Polar Express.

I have a way to remove as a source of my problem the HDMI cable and HDMI panel in my plasma, per a recent post of mine. Yeah!!!! I'll be able to isolate the problem very soon. At this time, I am suspecting the player, but I want to to have no doubt before I go through the effort of replacing it.

 

[MACCA350]

That second example has numerous problems, not just macroblocking that include:

1) Macroblocking - if you look at the blue floor you can see lots and lots of macroblocking. This is mostly caused when a frame doesn't have enough bits to encode an area so it has to do more rigorous averaging. This averaging can sometimes round differently from block to block, causing this effect.

2) Mosquito noise - if you look to the top of Utena's head at her hairline you will see that towards the edge you get a peppered effect that we call mosquito noise. In fact most of the edges on the whole image suffer from this problem.

3) Film noise - It is actually film noise that can cause a lot of problems 1 and 2. Film noise you find in blocks of colour and they show up in the form of minor fluctuations - almost like dust. This can actually have an appealing effect sometimes but does make a source harder to compress.

4) Rainbowing - There's not really that much on this image (if you want to see a lot of rainbows, look at Alien 9 - also by Central Park Media) but there are traces of yellow bordering the edges of Utena's sword hand shirt cuff. Not enough to be too annoying but another problem that in a sharper source would be really obvious.

5) Dot crawl - this is really hard to see, especially as it's a "moving" noise effect that changes with frames. However, other scenes with red show a marching ants effect in the red areas, particularly near black borders.

6) Faded colours - CPM are actually much better with the newer volumes of Utena. The first two dvds are more washed out looking than this. However, the colours could do with a little tweaking - as you'll see more clearly later on.

7) Blurry outlines - The image is very very soft, partly due to the transfer and partly due to the old school techniques being used. Even so, it's too soft so to look its best the edges could so with being sharpened.

Hopefully you can pin down whats causing the issues you're having.

cheers

 

[ronnie 1.8]

I spoke w/ Denon technical support, and confirmed what I had already believed, that there should be no issues at all with macroblocking in this player, and that there should be no issues with it and any display device, such as my plasma, for example.

Although, the tech I spoke to (Rog) thought 'macroblocking' meant the commands from my universal remote control were being blocked (not kidding)...

Once I explained the behavior I was seeing, he said there should no such issues. How in the world can a product development guy at Denon think that macroblocking refers to the signal from a remote control being blocked!!??

EDIT: Spoke to the guy that calibrated my 2 3930CI's, and he said absolutely, that if I do replace my player, document the current settings and plug them into my 3rd 3930CI... It is unnecessary to have him calibrate another 3930CI.

 

[ronnie 1.8]

...still gathering more information. I did receive my new HDMI cables (Blue Jeans Cable) today, am awaiting my HDMI switch from Radiient before installing.

One of thing of note, while testing my HDMI output at different resolutions for differences in perceived macroblocking, I noticed my plasma would not accept an indicated 480i output from my player. Hmmm... My plasma accepts 480i output from my TiVo S3 just fine. Another indication my 3930CI player is not working as expected...

 

[ronnie 1.8]

I received my Radiient HDMI switch and BJC HDMI cables. Separately, Denon said there were no known issues of their 3930CI with any display (just to be clear of that possible issue). I just connected my HDMI cables to the Radiient switch, and watched some of the Masters golf tournament, that had already recorded. Via component, the picture is just about perfect. No complaints at all. Via the single HDMI input, the color saturation jumped a LOT, really too much, and in some scenes (switching back and forth between component and HDMI while the image was paused), via HDMI saw obvious banding. What the heck??!! So is the HDMI panel I installed bad? I doubt it, as the picture looks pretty much perfect except for some banding (depending on the scene, only when there is a very gradual change in a given color). And it was a bit over-saturated. Thinking outloud, is this simply an issue w/ my plasma accepting HDMI? No. 5 sent me a PM citing that some displays have more of an issue w/ macroblocking than others. So I don't see it at all with HD cable TiVo via component. I do see it enough to be distracting with DVD via component, though significantly better than HDMI.

 

[Jase]

... I noticed my plasma would not accept an indicated 480i output from my player. Hmmm... My plasma accepts 480i output from my TiVo S3 just fine. Another indication my 3930CI player is not working as expected...

The HDMI blade doesn't accept a 480i (or 576i) signal. The problem isn't the 3930CI. The Component/VGA input on Panasonic Plasma's accept way more signals/resolutions.

 

[ronnie 1.8]

The HDMI blade doesn't accept a 480i (or 576i) signal. The problem isn't the 3930CI. The Component/VGA input on Panasonic Plasma's accept way more signals/resolutions.

One of the known features of the 3930CI is to output 480i via HDMI. Now that I'm thinking about it, I wonder if I changed the video settings of my player from component to interlace, I don't think I've checked that. However, I am very very happy to now believe the macroblocking I've seen on certain DVDs is simply recorded on the discs (as some have suggested). But I needed to be certain. I've watched some older DVDs via HDMI that look just great - barely any to none of the macroblocking I've described. I tested my friend's Denon DVD2910 (my old player) at the 2 min 0 sec mark of The Polar Express, and the artifacts were even WORSE. So, that pretty much allowed me to conclude my player is fine. Cheers...

PS - The Radiient switch is just excellent. Properly installed it this weekend, rerouted some interconnects, and the build quality of the switch is excellent, installed a Xantech IR emitter on it, reprogrammed my Harmony, all set. Very nice.

 

[Jase]

One of the known features of the 3930CI is to output 480i via HDMI.

Whilst it can output that via HDMI, your plasma's HDMI blade won't accept it. They're very limited in the signals/resolutions that they can accept.

 

[ronnie 1.8]

Whilst it can output that via HDMI, your plasma's HDMI blade won't accept it. They're very limited in the signals/resolutions that they can accept.

Ohhhh, I see. I didn't realize you were talking about the plasma blade. I never even considered it was the plasma that wouldn't accept the signal. Thank you for telling me of this. Cheers.

PS - So if I had an external video processor, I could still output 480i from my player to that component at HDMI 480i. Nice...

 

[Jase]

PS - So if I had an external video processor, I could still output 480i from my player to that component at HDMI 480i. Nice...

You could, but that would kind of defeat the point of having a player with the Realta chip. Having had a few Video Processor's, my A1XVA (5910CI) outclasses the lot of them.

 

[ronnie 1.8]

You could, but that would kind of defeat the point of having a player with the Realta chip. Having had a few Video Processor's, my A1XVA (5910CI) outclasses the lot of them.

I agree with this, and it was my thought when I wrote this reply. I was simply being aware that my player does output 480i via HDMI, and that I have options. But, true, one reason I bought the 3930CI was for the outstanding video processing...