Denon AVR X4500H rapid blinking red light

S

SmokeAndGnomes

Audiophyte
Hello all, I have a Denon X4500H that’s about 7 days old with about two hours runtime on it. This unit is way overkill for myself since all I use it for is music played throughout the house but I’ll go more into that shortly.
I have 10 in ceiling speakers throughout my home and 2 outdoor speakers on the back porch. Everything was wired while I built the house and runs into a media closet.

Main zone is running 8 speakers:
4 in the living room that run to a wall mounted volume knob (Center channel)
2 in the garage that run to a wall mounted volume knob (front left channel)
2 outdoor that run to a wall mounted volume knob (front right channel)

zone 2 is running two speakers:
One in the front bedroom and one in the spare bedroom. They’re both ran directly to the receiver with no additional volume knob and are tied in parallel to Assignable Height 1 R.

Zone 3 is running two speakers:
One is in the master bedroom and the other in the master bath. They’re both ran directly to the receiver with no additional volume knob and are tied in parallel to Assignable Height 2 R.

The idea was to be able to play music in each area or all areas at once. Volume control knobs for the main zone would allow us to listen to music in the garage and be quiet in the living room or the back porch and vice versa, etc, etc. Zone two and three could simply be powered on and off as those rooms were used.

I had been having some issues with trying to use just the garage speakers today and it kept causing the receiver to go into speaker protection mode even at low volume settings. After calling and talking to someone who works at the store I purchased the receiver from, he recommended I wire just those two speakers in series and so I did. Again, same problem. I decided to put that on hold and started listening to music in the living room and the very last thing I did was turn the volume knob off in there. After that I went to the receiver to find it was blinking a rapid flashing light every half second. The manual suggests that this means the amplifier has malfunctioned.

I have tried unplugging everything and powering on the receiver and it does the same thing: turns on for about 3 seconds and then shuts off for the same thing.

Finally, and I’m scared to admit this, I started off with a brand new Denon 750H in December and it did the exact same thing to me after about the exact same time period. Only difference was that I don’t remember what the last thing was that I was doing before it started doing this. I contacted the store I purchased it from and they warrantied It with this model because the 750s are out of stock until April.

Am I to blame for this? Is it possible this is just a cruel set of coincidences? If this is my fault what exactly could I be doing that would damage the amplifier? If anything wouldn’t the receiver be damaging the speakers? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. I’m losing my mind right now.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Hello all, I have a Denon X4500H that’s about 7 days old with about two hours runtime on it. This unit is way overkill for myself since all I use it for is music played throughout the house but I’ll go more into that shortly.
I have 10 in ceiling speakers throughout my home and 2 outdoor speakers on the back porch. Everything was wired while I built the house and runs into a media closet.

Main zone is running 8 speakers:
4 in the living room that run to a wall mounted volume knob (Center channel)
2 in the garage that run to a wall mounted volume knob (front left channel)
2 outdoor that run to a wall mounted volume knob (front right channel)

zone 2 is running two speakers:
One in the front bedroom and one in the spare bedroom. They’re both ran directly to the receiver with no additional volume knob and are tied in parallel to Assignable Height 1 R.

Zone 3 is running two speakers:
One is in the master bedroom and the other in the master bath. They’re both ran directly to the receiver with no additional volume knob and are tied in parallel to Assignable Height 2 R.

The idea was to be able to play music in each area or all areas at once. Volume control knobs for the main zone would allow us to listen to music in the garage and be quiet in the living room or the back porch and vice versa, etc, etc. Zone two and three could simply be powered on and off as those rooms were used.

I had been having some issues with trying to use just the garage speakers today and it kept causing the receiver to go into speaker protection mode even at low volume settings. After calling and talking to someone who works at the store I purchased the receiver from, he recommended I wire just those two speakers in series and so I did. Again, same problem. I decided to put that on hold and started listening to music in the living room and the very last thing I did was turn the volume knob off in there. After that I went to the receiver to find it was blinking a rapid flashing light every half second. The manual suggests that this means the amplifier has malfunctioned.

I have tried unplugging everything and powering on the receiver and it does the same thing: turns on for about 3 seconds and then shuts off for the same thing.

Finally, and I’m scared to admit this, I started off with a brand new Denon 750H in December and it did the exact same thing to me after about the exact same time period. Only difference was that I don’t remember what the last thing was that I was doing before it started doing this. I contacted the store I purchased it from and they warrantied It with this model because the 750s are out of stock until April.

Am I to blame for this? Is it possible this is just a cruel set of coincidences? If this is my fault what exactly could I be doing that would damage the amplifier? If anything wouldn’t the receiver be damaging the speakers? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. I’m losing my mind right now.
Obviously you have made a serious and fatal error in the design of your speaker system and ruined your receiver.

So we need to know details of your speaker system. One obvious question is this:- Are your volume controls impedance compensated ones, adjusted and set up correctly? Lastly receivers are not ideal, or designed for systems like yours. Distribution amps are what are required.
 
S

SmokeAndGnomes

Audiophyte
Obviously you have made a serious and fatal error in the design of your speaker system and ruined your receiver.

So we need to know details of your speaker system. One obvious question is this:- Are your volume controls impedance compensated ones, adjusted and set up correctly? Lastly receivers are not ideal, or designed for systems like yours. Distribution amps are what are required.
Wonderful. So it would appear the volume controls are not those type. However, could you elaborate on those a little more and could you explain exactly how this has damaged the amp?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
It happens twice and you're asking if its at your end with your use? Seems so but just the number of speakers and use screams don't do it!
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Wonderful. So it would appear the volume controls are not those type. However, could you elaborate on those a little more and could you explain exactly how this has damaged the amp?
You damaged the amps, because you have not heard of ohm's law. A speaker needs to see a narrow range of impedance. For a system like yours it needs to see as close as possible to 8 ohms on each channel. I do not know how you wired those speakers, but without impedance matching volume controls which contain auto transformers the impedance is almost certainly close to a short circuit. So if you take two 8 ohm speakers and wire them in parallel, you have four ohms. If you put four in parallel then you will have two ohms. When you get below 4 ohms for sure, then the load will be catastrophicly low. This is because as you drop the impedance the current goes up as V = IR. That is ohm's law. So the current through the output transistor was too high. This caused them to overheat and melt down, causing them to become a short circuit. The result is what you experienced twice. Shure these receivers have protection, but if you run them over a period in a damaging condition you will defeat it, which you did. Your warranty is void now.

I suspect at your level of knowledge, which would appear to be minimal, that you need a professional installer. This explains impedance matching volume controls.

This is an example of an impedance matching volume control.

However with a system as complex as yours driving it from a receiver is less than ideal and probably asking for trouble. There are a couple of better ways of going about it. One is to buy a receiver that has preouts, or use a pre/pro, and then drive each section of speakers from a separate channel of a distribution amp.

Another way to do it, which is the pro way to do it with that many speakers is with a professional PA 70 volt amp. These amps are designed for powering multiple speakers from long wire runs. It requires attaching a balancing transformer to each speaker. The transformers have taps on them marked in watts and the sum of the wattage on the taps, must equal the power of the amplifier. This balances the impedance.

Lastly the way you have gone about this is dated. If you must have whole house audio packed full of ceiling or other speakers, then there are systems that add a lot of features and novel connectivity now. An example would be the Sonance system.

Unfortunately the unvarnished truth is that you have barged ahead and installed a complex system with no foundation of knowledge as to how to design, spec. and install it. This predictably has produced a catastrophic result as would be predicted.

So now this will cost you far more money, than consulting a knowledgeable and expert professional in the first place.
 
S

SmokeAndGnomes

Audiophyte
You damaged the amps, because you have not heard of ohm's law. A speaker needs to see a narrow range of impedance. For a system like yours it needs to see as close as possible to 8 ohms on each channel. I do not know how you wired those speakers, but without impedance matching volume controls which contain auto transformers the impedance is almost certainly close to a short circuit. So if you take two 8 ohm speakers and wire them in parallel, you have four ohms. If you put four in parallel then you will have two ohms. When you get below 4 ohms for sure, then the load will be catastrophicly low. This is because as you drop the impedance the current goes up as V = IR. That is ohm's law. So the current through the output transistor was too high. This caused them to overheat and melt down, causing them to become a short circuit. The result is what you experienced twice. Shure these receivers have protection, but if you run them over a period in a damaging condition you will defeat it, which you did. Your warranty is void now.

I suspect at your level of knowledge, which would appear to be minimal, that you need a professional installer. This explains impedance matching volume controls.

This is an example of an impedance matching volume control.

However with a system as complex as yours driving it from a receiver is less than ideal and probably asking for trouble. There are a couple of better ways of going about it. One is to buy a receiver that has preouts, or use a pre/pro, and then drive each section of speakers from a separate channel of a distribution amp.

Another way to do it, which is the pro way to do it with that many speakers is with a professional PA 70 volt amp. These amps are designed for powering multiple speakers from long wire runs. It requires attaching a balancing transformer to each speaker. The transformers have taps on them marked in watts and the sum of the wattage on the taps, must equal the power of the amplifier. This balances the impedance.

Lastly the way you have gone about this is dated. If you must have whole house audio packed full of ceiling or other speakers, then there are systems that add a lot of features and novel connectivity now. An example would be the Sonance system.

Unfortunately the unvarnished truth is that you have barged ahead and installed a complex system with no foundation of knowledge as to how to design, spec. and install it. This predictably has produced a catastrophic result as would be predicted.

So now this will cost you far more money, than consulting a knowledgeable and expert professional in the first place.
After clicking on the link you sent and watching the video I decided to dig a little deeper on the website I purchased the knobs from. Those in the video looked very similar to the ones I bought and according to their page on Pyle.com they are “Hi-Fi Impedance Matching.”

Also, I’m assuming by “causing them to heat up and melt down and become an open circuit” you’re referring to my speakers, correct? But they’re still fine and without issue.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Hello all, I have a Denon X4500H that’s about 7 days old with about two hours runtime on it. This unit is way overkill for myself since all I use it for is music played throughout the house but I’ll go more into that shortly.
I have 10 in ceiling speakers throughout my home and 2 outdoor speakers on the back porch. Everything was wired while I built the house and runs into a media closet.

Main zone is running 8 speakers:
4 in the living room that run to a wall mounted volume knob (Center channel)
2 in the garage that run to a wall mounted volume knob (front left channel)
2 outdoor that run to a wall mounted volume knob (front right channel)

zone 2 is running two speakers:
One in the front bedroom and one in the spare bedroom. They’re both ran directly to the receiver with no additional volume knob and are tied in parallel to Assignable Height 1 R.

Zone 3 is running two speakers:
One is in the master bedroom and the other in the master bath. They’re both ran directly to the receiver with no additional volume knob and are tied in parallel to Assignable Height 2 R.

The idea was to be able to play music in each area or all areas at once. Volume control knobs for the main zone would allow us to listen to music in the garage and be quiet in the living room or the back porch and vice versa, etc, etc. Zone two and three could simply be powered on and off as those rooms were used.

I had been having some issues with trying to use just the garage speakers today and it kept causing the receiver to go into speaker protection mode even at low volume settings. After calling and talking to someone who works at the store I purchased the receiver from, he recommended I wire just those two speakers in series and so I did. Again, same problem. I decided to put that on hold and started listening to music in the living room and the very last thing I did was turn the volume knob off in there. After that I went to the receiver to find it was blinking a rapid flashing light every half second. The manual suggests that this means the amplifier has malfunctioned.

I have tried unplugging everything and powering on the receiver and it does the same thing: turns on for about 3 seconds and then shuts off for the same thing.

Finally, and I’m scared to admit this, I started off with a brand new Denon 750H in December and it did the exact same thing to me after about the exact same time period. Only difference was that I don’t remember what the last thing was that I was doing before it started doing this. I contacted the store I purchased it from and they warrantied It with this model because the 750s are out of stock until April.

Am I to blame for this? Is it possible this is just a cruel set of coincidences? If this is my fault what exactly could I be doing that would damage the amplifier? If anything wouldn’t the receiver be damaging the speakers? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. I’m losing my mind right now.
It seems that we have seen this movie before, that it happened to someone else who use some sort of volume control with speakers and have a lot of potential long runs of speaker feeds.

I suggest you first try to find out what the fault is using the following method:

1) Turn off the receiver.
2) Press and hold the buttons "ZONE3 SOURCE" and "STATUS" simultaneously
3) While still doing 2), press the power button to turn on the receiver.

The receiver would start up and you will see a menu with choices 1 and 2, select "2. PROTECTION" using the cursor up/down buttons, and then press the "ENTER" button to confirm.

After that you can press the "STATUS" button in protection history display mode to see the protection history such as the following:

L2: AS0 - this indicates a short circuit occurred between the speaker terminals.

L2: DC - this indicates DC output of the power amplifier is abnormal.

L2: THERMAL E - Abnormal heat sink temperature

L2: CURRENT - Overcurrent in power amp.

If it was a short circuit, or overcurrent, the next step is to disconnect all speakers at the receiver's end before powering it up again. If it power up okay then you may be lucky that no permanent damage has been done, then you should proceed to connect one known good speaker at a time using a short feed to verify all 9 channels, and go from there.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Hello all, I have a Denon X4500H that’s about 7 days old with about two hours runtime on it. This unit is way overkill for myself since all I use it for is music played throughout the house but I’ll go more into that shortly.
I have 10 in ceiling speakers throughout my home and 2 outdoor speakers on the back porch. Everything was wired while I built the house and runs into a media closet.

Main zone is running 8 speakers:
4 in the living room that run to a wall mounted volume knob (Center channel)
2 in the garage that run to a wall mounted volume knob (front left channel)
2 outdoor that run to a wall mounted volume knob (front right channel)

zone 2 is running two speakers:
One in the front bedroom and one in the spare bedroom. They’re both ran directly to the receiver with no additional volume knob and are tied in parallel to Assignable Height 1 R.

Zone 3 is running two speakers:
One is in the master bedroom and the other in the master bath. They’re both ran directly to the receiver with no additional volume knob and are tied in parallel to Assignable Height 2 R.

The idea was to be able to play music in each area or all areas at once. Volume control knobs for the main zone would allow us to listen to music in the garage and be quiet in the living room or the back porch and vice versa, etc, etc. Zone two and three could simply be powered on and off as those rooms were used.

I had been having some issues with trying to use just the garage speakers today and it kept causing the receiver to go into speaker protection mode even at low volume settings. After calling and talking to someone who works at the store I purchased the receiver from, he recommended I wire just those two speakers in series and so I did. Again, same problem. I decided to put that on hold and started listening to music in the living room and the very last thing I did was turn the volume knob off in there. After that I went to the receiver to find it was blinking a rapid flashing light every half second. The manual suggests that this means the amplifier has malfunctioned.

I have tried unplugging everything and powering on the receiver and it does the same thing: turns on for about 3 seconds and then shuts off for the same thing.

Finally, and I’m scared to admit this, I started off with a brand new Denon 750H in December and it did the exact same thing to me after about the exact same time period. Only difference was that I don’t remember what the last thing was that I was doing before it started doing this. I contacted the store I purchased it from and they warrantied It with this model because the 750s are out of stock until April.

Am I to blame for this? Is it possible this is just a cruel set of coincidences? If this is my fault what exactly could I be doing that would damage the amplifier? If anything wouldn’t the receiver be damaging the speakers? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. I’m losing my mind right now.
You need to get a multi-meter and learn to use it. You have wiring problems.

Who made the connections and installed the volume controls? Make sure the wires connected to the controls aren't connected to the wrong terminals- the wires from the Amp can be connected to the side marked 'Speakers' and that will definitely cause problems.

Measure the resistance on the speaker wires, with the wires disconnected from the AVR- this is something that should ALWAYS be done after making the speaker and volume control connections, BEFORE anything is connected to the AVR's speaker terminals.

If you wired everything and didn't verify that no problems existed, then yes, you caused this. If the speakers and/or volume controls are faulty, then no, it's not your fault unless you didn't verify that the resistance was safe for the AVR.

No, the receiver wouldn't damage the speakers because its protection circuitry is doing its job.

Disconnect ALL speaker wires and turn the receiver on- if it stays on, find out where the problems are. If it doesn't, it's toast.

If you will admit that you really don't know much about this stuff, hire someone to do it. You're trying to use the receiver in a way that was never intended- connecting four speakers to one volume control can work, if the volume control has impedance matching but if you just made the connections without moving any small jumpers before mounting it in the box, you should have A) read the instructions and if it doesn't have jumpers, B) you should have bought the correct controls.

RTFM- always. If you don't understand what you have read in the manual, get someone to do it for you.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
After clicking on the link you sent and watching the video I decided to dig a little deeper on the website I purchased the knobs from. Those in the video looked very similar to the ones I bought and according to their page on Pyle.com they are “Hi-Fi Impedance Matching.”

Also, I’m assuming by “causing them to heat up and melt down and become an open circuit” you’re referring to my speakers, correct? But they’re still fine and without issue.
The problem with stacking speakers on one set of terminals isn't for the speakers, it's in the amplifier. If you have ever replaced a fuse, it happens for only a few reasons- a bad component is connected or something failed or the current in the circuit was too high for the fuse. This IS NOT a green light to install a fuse with a higher rating, it's a signal that you have a problem. Current is just what it might seem- it's the amount of something that's flowing and in this case, it's electrons. In a hose, creek, river or pipe, it's water or some other liquid. A small hose or pipe can't send a lot of water volume, but it can sometimes handle high pressure and make the water shoot out of the end. Even then, the distance can be changed by opening the sprayer and this is a good example of the effect on restricting the water's flow- if it's a narrow opening, it will take years to fill a swimming pool, but it fills faster with the opening wider, or when using a larger hose.

This is OK, if you're thinking about wires, but the amplifier will overheat in no time if the speaker resistance is too low and that's what you did- connected the speakers in a way that reduced the resistance to the point where two receivers died.

Ohm's Law, which TLS mentioned, is the thing that lets us know if we're doing things correctly.
 

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