Denon AVR-X4400 4K HDR HDMI issues?

John Robb

John Robb

Enthusiast
Ratings
2
#1
Hi,

I am about to pull the trigger on a new 5.1.4 AVR receiver. I’ve had Denon since the early 90’s and have always been impressed and the AVR-X4400 really fits the bill.

However, I’ve read a lot about Denon having issues passing 4K HDR content over HDMI. A friend built a new theater and had to return his Denon x300 model for a Sony ES (he’s just running 5.1).

I’m pretty much sold on the AVR-X4400, but a potential HDMI problem a pretty significant issue for me to overcome.

Does anyone here have any insight into this? Has this issue been taken care of with the x400 series over the x300 series?

Thanks!


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R

rbdan

Enthusiast
Ratings
3
#2
Hey John,

I am also thinking of picking up a 4400 when they start to blow them out.

What issues have you heard of? I haven’t seen any.

Can you post a few links for me to research?


Thanks
Dan
 
John Robb

John Robb

Enthusiast
Ratings
2
#3
I can’t find anything solid - hence my posting here.

It started with my friend and his Denon x300 (I don’t remember if he had the AVR-X2300 or 3300). He told me the Magnolia sales guy said the Denon would not pass 4K HDR at 60FPS over HDMI from his AppleTV to his 75” Sony XBR. He had to drop it down to a lower setting. He ended up returning the Denon for the Sony ES.

I started researching it I found some articles from Denon customer service saying to use certain HDMI inputs that are closer to the outputs . That tells me there’s something odd going on there.

There are 2 reviews on Amazon that specifically reference this issue, including one from June 2018.

I was hoping someone who sells / installs these and has real world experience would comment here.


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John Robb

John Robb

Enthusiast
Ratings
2
#4
I ended up buying a Marantz SR6012, so hopefully there will be no issue with it.


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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Overlord
Ratings
3,693 16 36
#5
John, curious why you chose the sister brand of Denon, which is likely far more similar than different? I believe the 4400 is more comparable to the 7012 but it's been a while, too.....
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
Ratings
4,162 7 1
#6
I ended up buying a Marantz SR6012, so hopefully there will be no issue with it.


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Regarding the hdmi board, whatever issues that apply to Denon will likely apply to Marantz. You probably should try that feature on your SR6012 right away and use it continuously and repeatedly for a while, just to be sure.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Ratings
7,025 13 19
#7
Hi,

I am about to pull the trigger on a new 5.1.4 AVR receiver. I’ve had Denon since the early 90’s and have always been impressed and the AVR-X4400 really fits the bill.

However, I’ve read a lot about Denon having issues passing 4K HDR content over HDMI. A friend built a new theater and had to return his Denon x300 model for a Sony ES (he’s just running 5.1).

I’m pretty much sold on the AVR-X4400, but a potential HDMI problem a pretty significant issue for me to overcome.

Does anyone here have any insight into this? Has this issue been taken care of with the x400 series over the x300 series?

Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have been aware for sometime that there seems to be a plethora of issues with HDCP 2.2 compliance and compatibility issues. This is not confined to one manufacturer. This is resulting in unstable repeater handshakes. It is hard to know where the fault lies, receivers or source devices. Most likely both. This is similar in nature, and just may be worse, than what happened at the dawn of HDMI and HDCP codes.

Personally I don't think 4K UHD is ready for prime time, unless you use the TV as the source. This eliminates the troublesome repeater issues.

Fortunately I have 2K plasma screens and in my view the picture from those is far better than from any 4K screen I have seen to date.

So I will stay away until I have a failure, or a definite improvement over what I have is available.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
Ratings
4,162 7 1
#8
John, curious why you chose the sister brand of Denon, which is likely far more similar than different? I believe the 4400 is more comparable to the 7012 but it's been a while, too.....
If you read his earlier post, he cited the alleged not passing 4K/60 Hz from the 4K Apple TV issue. Otherwise, I think he knew, going with the SR6012 would mean pay more to get less. You remember right, the 4400 is more comparable to the 7012. Both are rated for the same power output at the lower 0.05% THD, that is the same for higher models including the 6400, 8500, 7012, and 8012, and all models below those have their THD specified at 0.08%. The 4400 has AL32 to help the digital side, while the 7012 has the HDAM to help the analog side. To me, (own both) they are both marketing hypes that do not result in audible benefits. Marantz also still hold on to the multichannel analog inputs, so for people who need those things, Marantz is the open option as Denon keep that feature on their flag ship model only.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Overlord
Ratings
3,693 16 36
#9
If you read his earlier post, he cited the alleged not passing 4K/60 Hz from the 4K Apple TV issue. Otherwise, I think he knew, going with the SR6012 would mean pay more to get less. You remember right, the 4400 is more comparable to the 7012. Both are rated for the same power output at the lower 0.05% THD, that is the same for higher models including the 6400, 8500, 7012, and 8012, and all models below those have their THD specified at 0.08%. The 4400 has AL32 to help the digital side, while the 7012 has the HDAM to help the analog side. To me, (own both) they are both marketing hypes that do not result in audible benefits. Marantz also still hold on to the multichannel analog inputs, so for people who need those things, Marantz is the open option as Denon keep that feature on their flag ship model only.
I meant more in terms of the HDMI/4k compatibility, would imagine they're equally capable in that regard. Neither Marantz nor Denon apparently pay for full HDMI certification, either....
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
Ratings
4,162 7 1
#10
I meant more in terms of the HDMI/4k compatibility, would imagine they're equally capable in that regard. Neither Marantz nor Denon apparently pay for full HDMI certification, either....
Agreed, by the way, if you look at the internals (top view) the 4400/7012 looks practically the same. Obviously the HDAM boards are hidden from the top layer. I would bet the HDMI boards for the two models are the same. According to @M Code, the certification thing is probably the reason why D&M may be having more HDMI compatibility issues than Yamaha AVRs, that have HDMI certification. My 4400's HDMI seems to be working well so far, better than the AV8801's 1.4a (but no hdcp2.2). I don't have a 4K Apple TV to try, and have no intention to get one.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Overlord
Ratings
3,693 16 36
#11
This sort of incompatibility as 4K developed (like with the Denon x200 avr he has) was one reason I've stayed away. Like TLS more than happy with my plasma for now.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
Ratings
4,162 7 1
#12
This sort of incompatibility as 4K developed (like with the Denon x200 avr he has) was one reason I've stayed away. Like TLS more than happy with my plasma for now.
HDCP is a security (copy protection) measure, so I doubt it would get better because by the time they got the compatibility issues sorted out, the next version HDCP 2.3, or higher, will be needed. Hopefully they will eventually do this thing via firmware updates. For now, I have no issues with my 4K stuff, but being 10.5 ft from the screen, 2K looks just as good.
 
S

snakeeyes

Senior Audioholic
Ratings
165 1
#13
HDCP is a security (copy protection) measure, so I doubt it would get better because by the time they got the compatibility issues sorted out, the next version HDCP 2.3, or higher, will be needed. Hopefully they will eventually do this thing via firmware updates. For now, I have no issues with my 4K stuff, but being 10.5 ft from the screen, 2K looks just as good.
HDMI 2.0a with HDCP 2.2 has been pretty reliable for me the last year with the same on all my gear, so best bet is to buy the tv and then match up the same HDMI version on everything else like I did. :)

Using Samsung UHD tv, Sony UHD player, Yamaha 2016 receiver. Late 2016 models of each, all on HDMI 2.0a HDCP 2.2.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Samurai
Ratings
1,010 5
#14
I have my 4300h hooked up to my Shield TV that is HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0 and have no issues. This sounds like a simple one device in the chain doesn't like something else and it isn't working. Good ole HDMI.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
Ratings
4,162 7 1
#15
HDMI 2.0a with HDCP 2.2 has been pretty reliable for me the last year with the same on all my gear, so best bet is to buy the tv and then match up the same HDMI version on everything else like I did. :)

Using Samsung UHD tv, Sony UHD player, Yamaha 2016 receiver. Late 2016 models of each, all on HDMI 2.0a HDCP 2.2.
The op was concerned about the compatibility issues, not reliability, with certain specific device and for certain function(s),in this case the 4k Apple TV was mentioned.
 
S

snakeeyes

Senior Audioholic
Ratings
165 1
#16
The op was concerned about the compatibility issues, not reliability, with certain specific device and for certain function(s),in this case the 4k Apple TV was mentioned.
True I didn’t address the whole situation.

Does the OP already have a new TV and what year and model? What are all of the devices and years and models he owns?

The OP fear is hearing another person with compatibility issues to some Sony XBR from what year exactly? The Apple 4K and Denon 4400 are not old gear but the possibly older Sony XBR could be not compatible with the other 2. For the OP, in a perfect world he should buy the TV and AVR around the same year and match HDMI and hdcp version, IMHO.

No such thing as future proof when it comes to hdmi. If you are buying an AVR now and a TV later, the standard may change in a couple years and the new TV could be incompatible with the older AVR. Now even if it wasn’t fully compatible, the TV could be the hub for the Apple 4K and send just audio to the AVR. Not perfect but will work for most audio formats.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Seriously, I have no life.
Ratings
6,018 14 6
#17
The op was concerned about the compatibility issues, not reliability
According to @M Code, Yamaha is the only major brand that extensively tests for HDMI compatibility.

He could try the Denon and if he has compatibility issues, he could return it.
 
Last edited:
M Code

M Code

Audioholic Chief
Ratings
417 1
#18
In the early days compatibility between HDMI components was/is a major issue...
Basically because few brands would spend the significant $ expense and time allowance required for HDMI/HDCP certification. Also the certification was less crucial for an HDMI source or HDMI sync product as many are simply a plug & play type as no HDMI repeater was required.. The biggest challenge are the AVRs which have to take the incoming HDMI/HDCP encoded stream, extract it, decode it and the re-encode it then export out to the HD display in exactly the same timing as the input stream..

1 way a brand could check their product for HDMI/HDCP was to attend 1 of the HDMI plug-fests.. @ the plug-fests a brand could check an engineering sample with other brands, not perfect but a great inexpensive way to check for compatibility between HDMI products. Here is an overview of how & what is tested @ a plug-fest....

HDMI Plugfest types of Testing

The plugfest offers three types of testing:
Testing 1:1 with Test Equipment against the HDMI and HDCP specification
Testing will use the test equipment from Quantum Data and can cover:
  • CEC
  • HDMI (except for the Physical Layer). This includes associated items such as EDID.
  • HDCP
"Mini-System" Testing
Testing in a system made up of products from different manufacturers eg a TV, STB, DVD and Home Theatre amplifier, using predetermined Test Scenarios.

Availability of diagnostic logging from Quantum Data.
Inter-manfacturer plugfesting
  • Scheduled testing of products 1:1 with other manufacturers. The format of this part is open for the individual manufacturers to define within the scheduled timeslot.
  • Availability of diagnostic logging from Quantum Data.

Unfortunately today many HDMI products go through minimal HDMI/HDCP testing and thats why it is still a continuous problem today. Being in the AV install sell/install biz for many years, we steer clear of brands that have the well-noted HDMI issues.

Just my $0.02... ;)
 

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