Denon AVR or Anthem AVM70

lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I have heard a lot of YouTube reviews stating that AV processors have better components and channel separation. Hence was considering costlier AV processors. Any thoughts?
Just because someone talks on a youtube video doesn't necessarily mean much as to what they say.... Look at the measurements as has been suggested, it just doesn't bear out for most....
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
It's too bad no one ever implemented Audyssey's ability to manage four subs independently....that could have been interesting. For two subs Audyssey XT32/SubEQ works very well (and a lot easier than using a minidsp :) ).
I can ask AskAudyssey to find out what they would recommend. May be there is a trick that can be applied, with the App.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks A lot for your feedback. Also wanted to know if there is any benefit in having a better DAC chipset. Denon uses AK4458VN in their AVRs and Anthem AVM70 uses AK4490. Does this have any impact on sound?
I highly doubt you can hear a difference between -107 dB and -112 dB THD+N, unless everything in your audio chain is top notch including your loudspeakers, room, placement and your room has close to "0" dB ambient noise that is practically impossible.

For example, if the loudest spl you listen to is 70 dB average, 90 dB peak, -107 dB THD+N would mean all the noise and harmonics would be at -17 dB below 0 dB, worst case scenario. 0 dB is what experts consider inaudible to most people.

If you listen to ref level, that is 85 dB average, 105 dB peak, say even 115 dB peak, then -107 dB THD+N means the harmonics and noise that don't belong to the original music signal would be at 8 dB, so while that would theoretically be audible, it is still unlikely because your room noise would likely be at least 10 dB over the audio band so in addition to masking by the music itself, it also gets masked by your room noise.

All these assume you have super hearing.

Still, given the choice I would pay extra for the AK4490, it shouldn't be much more, may be $20, if that, and that's why I despite integrated amps because for AVRs I can understand because of the lower profit margin on per unit basis, but for integrated amps, there is no excuse for the likes of Hegel, Anthem, Yamaha, Parasound, NAD etc., to put second tier DAC ICs in their amps.

Keep in mind the DAC IC is just one part in the audio chain there are also other ICs such as the preamp volume control, switches (also ICs in most cases), and at least 1 or more opamp buffers. Each has its own THD and noise, so you do want each part to have the highest possible spec as distortions and noise of the parts all add up.

The DAC IC is not always the bottleneck, in the past, more often than not, the volume control is, because most AVRs and AVPs (including Anthem, NAD etc.) used LSI chips (large scale integrated) that to perform multiple functions and their THD+N specs would typically be worst than the medium scale ones that specialize in fewer functions. D+M upgraded that chip by using multiple MSI ones so if you buy their products from say 2016, the volume control chip should no longer be the bottleneck. They also upgraded the DAC IC tot he AK4458, the specs of it sort of matches the volume IC. Unfortunately they use the same IC in the AVR-X8500H and AV8805 and I think that's the reason why the X8500H did not measure that much better than the X3600H, or even the X3500H (at lower output). On the M side, it gets worse, I suspect (other engineer hobbyists too, I think..)HDAM is the one responsible for the added THD+N, but that's just my educated guess.

Those gents in that video you watch would not have said what they if they have viewed the bench measurements, read the information in the service manuals and have the knowledge to understand what they read. I bet they did not do any of such things, but simply read the marketing material and listened to the dealer reps.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Just because someone talks on a youtube video doesn't necessarily mean much as to what they say.... Look at the measurements as has been suggested, it just doesn't bear out for most....
I think I could guess which one he viewed and that one was as I said, done by two gentlemen and it was a hilarious one, though I bet they were serious.

Gene's one didn't help much either if someone only view part of it and pay attention to the part they like to hear such as the theoretical benefits of the HDAMs, and "separates" in general. If you view the whole thing and listen to everything in detail then it would fine, expectedly as Gene is a good engineer in this field.
 
O

oupee

Enthusiast
Hi,
I am currently running a 5.1(2 subs).2 home theatre setup in my living room. The Speakers are Monitor Audio Silver 6 front left and right, Monitor Audio Silver Center, Monitor Audio Bronze FX for side surrounds, two SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos and two SVS SB4000 subwoofers. The AVR is a Marantz SR5010 which operates as a processor. I am using Emotiva XPA5 to power all ear level speakers and Emotive Basx 8 powering two atmos channel. I wanted to change my AVR so I can add more channels and to improve the performance.
Need feedback on whether I should buy cheaper Denon AVC-X3700H / X4700H and use Pre outs or go for Anthem AVM70 which is double the price and has more channels. I would be immediately adding two more atmos speakers and by upgrading would be able to have two separate subwoofer channels. The long term objective is to have a dedicated home theatre room with more speakers and not having to change the processor frequently. Also would there be an improved performance with regards to audio by buying Anthem AV70? I have read interesting reviews about Anthem products. But Denon is a larger brand and I feel has better support. Please help with your valuable feedback.
Today is a strange time. New devices have not been tested yet, Denon / Marantz with HDMI 2.1 has no advantage because it does not work properly. In your place, I would decide between SR8015 and AVC8500 and I would lean more towards 8015 because it doesn't matter if preamp mode is turned on and it is cheaper. But if I already had some power amplifiers and I knew that in half a year I would have a dedicated room, I would risk the Anthem AVM70. It would be my decision and my money. No device is perfect and I would just risk it. It's your money.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I can ask AskAudyssey to find out what they would recommend. May be there is a trick that can be applied, with the App.
That would be really cool if the avr could offload the processing power to the app....
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
That would be really cool if the avr could offload the processing power to the app....
I did not ask Audyssey because after that I seem to remember seeing their response to similar questions. If I remember right, they suggested you use a Y connector to put the two subs that are equidistance to the mlp together, same for the other too so that Audyssey Sub EQ HT will time align the two groups.

I can't and don't know how to prove the theory but I do believe those who use minidsp to time align 4 subs cannot do better than Audyssey Sub EQ HT already can. The newest Dirac Live version apparently can now time align more than one sub, but again if when they say "multiple" subs we don't know if they means two, or 4. Audyssey claimed "multiple" too, but it is just two, more than that you have to group two together.

The main reason to use 4 subs is to have flatter response, that's belief/findings before we have any REQ systems, I find it hard to believe it is such a big deal now, despite the availability of auto REQ, that we have to do it manually with yet another device.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I did not ask Audyssey because after that I seem to remember seeing their response to similar questions. If I remember right, they suggested you use a Y connector to put the two subs that are equidistance to the mlp together, same for the other too so that Audyssey Sub EQ HT will time align the two groups.

I can't and don't know how to prove the theory but I do believe those who use minidsp to time align 4 subs cannot do better than Audyssey Sub EQ HT already can. The newest Dirac Live version apparently can now time align more than one sub, but again if when they say "multiple" subs we don't know if they means two, or 4. Audyssey claimed "multiple" too, but it is just two, more than that you have to group two together.

The main reason to use 4 subs is to have flatter response, that's belief/findings before we have any REQ systems, I find it hard to believe it is such a big deal now, despite the availability of auto REQ, that we have to do it manually with yet another device.
I was referring to comments by Chris K (main Audyssey guy) that Audyssey had the capability of handling four independent subs, but no avr manufacturer installed such (due cost of additional processing power I assume, if not difficulty in simply imagining the market for such). I've seen confusing things about Dirac and subs so far....
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I was referring to comments by Chris K (main Audyssey guy) that Audyssey had the capability of handling four independent subs, but no avr manufacturer installed such (due cost of additional processing power I assume, if not difficulty in simply imagining the market for such). I've seen confusing things about Dirac and subs so far....
You are right, as I said before I thought I remember seeing that too, but there were also talks about using Y-cords to do 4 but that might have been Audioholics. Any way, a quick search found what you are referring to in the AskAudyssey site:

SubEQ HT vs MultEQ XT32 – Ask Audyssey (zendesk.com)
  • Audyssey LabsJuly 10, 2012 00:00
    Hi Jay,
    Sadly the 4 outputs are really only 2. They are internally y-corded in two pairs.
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    Jay KoppJuly 10, 2012 06:57
    Thanks Chris. Is it something that will end up in future versions of Audussey technologies?
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    Audyssey LabsJuly 10, 2012 10:23
    Hi Jay, this is already available from Audyssey. However no AVR maker has yet allowed control of 4 independent subs.
 
S

stalag2005

Full Audioholic
I own a MRX-740 from Anthem and love it if it helps the op. It just works.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I am currently using two subs (SVS SB 4000). Is there an advantage of shifting to a dedicated AV processor like Anthem AVM70 or just use Pre outs in Denon AVR?
Also wanted to know if there is any benefit in having a better DAC chipset. Denon uses AK4458VN in their AVRs and Anthem AVM70 uses AK4490. Does this have any impact on sound?
It seems one attraction of Anthem's is the AARC REQ. In my experience, Audyssey XT32 with Sub EQ HT (from AVR-X3700H and SR6015 and up) can do as good a job as any auto Room EQ systems including Dirac and AARC. I actually have no experience with AARC but I find in the 20-200 Hz range, using the Audyssey Editor App with Ratbuddyssey, XT32 Sub EQ HT can do a equal or better job than Dirac Live based my limited experience with Dirac Live's 2Ch trial version. I can get the response flat within +/- 1 dB, can't imagine AARC can do as good or better from posted FR curves I have seen. I do have reasons to believe Dirac Live is the better of the 3, and will still likely give it another trial. Regardless, I don't believe in a DBT one will hear any difference between them if the EQ range is limited to 20 to 300 Hz. So imo, that is no longer a factor, in terms of the so called sound quality. In fact, I believe even YPAO will do just as well if one is willing to spend time fine tuning it post YPAO, using the PEQ option provided.

Being in Canada, I would love to find reasons to go with an Anthem but I just can't. You will pay more for sure, but likely get less, from what I can see from objective measurements. Subjective measurements are almost useless, or meaningless. Users who paid premium for them, they are (well, let's say the majority) naturally like them to begin with, but if you look at on the objective side, the X3700H, X4700H are the sweet spots at the moment. Hopefully Yamaha will soon have something soon to compete. Better measurements do not mean much in terms of audibly better sound quality, but unless there other good reasons to go with those that didn't do so well on the test bench, I would still go with the ones that measured better and are more affordable.

You asked about the DAC IC, I would say at the level of the AK4458, ES9006, should be transparent, the AK4490 and ES9026, 9038 has slightly better specs but can we human tell the difference, you'll be the judge. But you just want to have a better spec'ed DAC IC, you may want to wait, because Denon has replaced the IC in their AVR-X4700H and X6700H since some time in the spring. No one knows which one they used, but I would think the AK4468 would be the likely candidate as it is the successor of the AK4458 so it would be easy to implement using boards with the same physical dimensions and mounting.

AVR-X4700H | 9.2chプレミアムAVサラウンドレシーバー | Denon公式
Translated:
The D / A converter IC has been changed since the spring of 2021. Since the DAC is a component that has a particularly large effect on the sound quality of the product, when changing it, the circuit is redesigned and the sound tuning is performed in the same process as when developing the new product. We continue to deliver products of the same quality as before, while maintaining the same sound quality, performance, and functions as before.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Being in Canada, I would love to find reasons to go with an Anthem...
Probably the biggest reason right there, especially if you live near their repair center.

Bryston (also Canadian) would be better, but too bad they cost too much. :D
 

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