Denon AVR or Anthem AVM70

N

Nidhin Raj

Audiophyte
Hi,
I am currently running a 5.1(2 subs).2 home theatre setup in my living room. The Speakers are Monitor Audio Silver 6 front left and right, Monitor Audio Silver Center, Monitor Audio Bronze FX for side surrounds, two SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos and two SVS SB4000 subwoofers. The AVR is a Marantz SR5010 which operates as a processor. I am using Emotiva XPA5 to power all ear level speakers and Emotive Basx 8 powering two atmos channel. I wanted to change my AVR so I can add more channels and to improve the performance.
Need feedback on whether I should buy cheaper Denon AVC-X3700H / X4700H and use Pre outs or go for Anthem AVM70 which is double the price and has more channels. I would be immediately adding two more atmos speakers and by upgrading would be able to have two separate subwoofer channels. The long term objective is to have a dedicated home theatre room with more speakers and not having to change the processor frequently. Also would there be an improved performance with regards to audio by buying Anthem AV70? I have read interesting reviews about Anthem products. But Denon is a larger brand and I feel has better support. Please help with your valuable feedback.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
Setting aside feature sets and focussing just on raw audio, you will find NO audio upgrade whatsoever between those two AVR models. Convience, room correction facilities, and othe features will determine what you need. How many subs are you using? If more than one, I would suggest getting a miniDSP in there as well for better bass integration.
 
N

Nidhin Raj

Audiophyte
I am currently using two subs (SVS SB 4000). Is there an advantage of shifting to a dedicated AV processor like Anthem AVM70 or just use Pre outs in Denon AVR?
 
N

Nidhin Raj

Audiophyte
Setting aside feature sets and focussing just on raw audio, you will find NO audio upgrade whatsoever between those two AVR models. Convience, room correction facilities, and othe features will determine what you need. How many subs are you using? If more than one, I would suggest getting a miniDSP in there as well for better bass integration.
I am currently using two subs (SVS SB 4000). Is there an advantage of shifting to a dedicated AV processor like Anthem AVM70 or just use Pre outs in Denon AVR?
 
Cos

Cos

Audioholic Field Marshall
I am a Paradigm/Anthem Fan, but even with that being said, I agree with 3db, from a raw audio perspective with the upgrade. That being said there is a lot of features you may want from a new AVR or Pre/Pro

  • Full 4K 4:4:4 HDMI 2.0/2.1 ports (Depending on TV HDR10+ or Dolby Vision) 8k on Denon, Anthem is a $500 future upgrade
  • You are an avid gamer and want VRR (Variable Refresh rate) or gamming at 120fps
  • Dolby Atmos
  • eArc if you have a newer TV
  • Updated Bluetooth & WiFi
  • Room Correction Audsssey 32 or Anthem Arc room correction
In either case, unless you have a preference on room correction and want to upgrade, I would probably go with the Denon. While I prefer a pre/pro, many people on this forum use this model in the way you described.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
It’s interesting you are comparing AVR of one brand vs AVP (pre-pro, processor) of a different brand.

Usually people compare AVR vs AVP of the same brand, AVR vs AVR of different brands, and AVP vs AVP of different brands.

For example, comparing Anthem AVR vs Denon, Marantz, or Yamaha AVR. Or comparing Marantz and Yamaha AVP vs Anthem AVP.

In terms of Sound Quality/ Audio Performance, I don’t think there is any significant differences or improvements among any brands or between AVR vs AVP.

The main differences will be features, compatibility, reliability, and support.

Personally, based on your speakers, subs, and amps, I would just keep your AVR.

How big is your room? Why do you believe that adding more speakers will improve performance?
 
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3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
I am currently using two subs (SVS SB 4000). Is there an advantage of shifting to a dedicated AV processor like Anthem AVM70 or just use Pre outs in Denon AVR?
A miniDSP can do far more for bass response than any of the onboard room correction facilities by any of the manufactures.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
If you look at the technical reviews of the Denon 3700/4700 vs the Anthem done by ASR, it's kind of hard to argue for the Anthem unless you just really want its ARC REQ program vs Denon's Audyssey. Personally I'd go the Denon route even if you don't need the amp sections, it's just more cost effective IMO. If I were to spend as much as on the AVM60 I'd look at the Denon 8500 instead....
 
W

warnerwh

Audioholic
Whatever you do you should read the reviews and measurements of the Anthem at audiosciencereview.com before you buy it. Then you should read the reviews and measurements of the Denon 3700/4700. I wouldn't think twice and would buy the Denon. Better performance and less money
 
N

Nidhin Raj

Audiophyte
I was more inclined to AVR as it was cost effective. I would be shifting to a dedicated home theatre room in less than a years time. My current AVR can run only 5.1.2 setup. Currently I wanted to add two more atmos speakers and go to a 9.2.6 setup in the long run.
I have heard a lot of YouTube reviews stating that AV processors have better components and channel separation. Hence was considering costlier AV processors. Any thoughts?
 
N

Nidhin Raj

Audiophyte
A miniDSP can do far more for bass response than any of the onboard room correction facilities by any of the manufactures.
I am considering this option. Had seen video by home theatre guru on YouTube as well as by youthman praising minidsp.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
A miniDSP can do far more for bass response than any of the onboard room correction facilities by any of the manufactures.
I would disagree, not even true for just 2 channels, let alone the OP's future plan on going to 9.1.6. I have the 2XHD that is back to its original box if someone is interested in a used one in virtually brand new condition.

miniDSP products are great imo, but is often overrated (at least something like the entry level 2XHD) for whatever reason. If paired with Dirac Live, then I would agree it probably can do a better job than onboard solutions by Audyssey and AARC.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I was more inclined to AVR as it was cost effective. I would be shifting to a dedicated home theatre room in less than a years time. My current AVR can run only 5.1.2 setup. Currently I wanted to add two more atmos speakers and go to a 9.2.6 setup in the long run.
I have heard a lot of YouTube reviews stating that AV processors have better components and channel separation. Hence was considering costlier AV processors. Any thoughts?
I think you have come to the right place, finally!.:D

There are many hearsay out there, many are ignorant to the powerful Placebo and expectation bias effects that virtually no one is immune to.

If you are happy with using the pre outs of the 5010 with you Emotiva amp then I would just keep using it until you are really ready for 9.1.6. By that time, more bugs would have been fixed.., or more bug free devices would be available for you to choose from.

For 9.1.6, unless Denon offers one by the time you are ready, you would have no choice but to go with an expensive AV preamp processor. Currently the best measured Denon AVR-X8500H and the A110 can only do up to 7.1.6. You can connect 15 speakers so that you can flip between Atmos and and Auro 3D but it cannot process 15 channels simultaneously.

If you are fine with just 13 channel processing then currently the AVR-X8500H measured better than any separate processors, it beats even the $15,000 Storm Audio. So I would suggest you ignore those You-tube videos, especially the one in which the two gents said they found even a AV7705 (might have been 7706) sounded better (in terms of channel separation, sound stage etc. blablablabla) than even the more expensive SR8015 (that measured much better). They obviously have no idea what's inside those gear, it was the most hilarious HT video I have seen.:D Those two guys seem to think any any separates (so called) would beat any AVR. I hope that's not the one you viewed.;) One more thing, those guys typically would use the popular arguments that its your ears, stupid, not specs and measurements.., sounds convincing for sure.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
I would disagree, not even true for just 2 channels, let alone the OP's future plan on going to 9.1.6. I have the 2XHD that is back to its original box if someone is interested in a used one in virtually brand new condition.

miniDSP products are great imo, but is often overrated (at least something like the entry level 2XHD) for whatever reason. If paired with Dirac Live, then I would agree it probably can do a better job than onboard solutions by Audyssey and AARC.
Good luck reigning in 4 subs with any of the room correction facilities found on any AVR. I will never go out with a miniDSP for rooms with multiple subs.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Good luck reigning in 4 subs with any of the room correction facilities found on any AVR. I will never go out with a miniDSP for rooms with multiple subs.
Okay that's different! The OP has two subs, if he goes with 4 then that needs to be considered. For me though, there is still the question of balancing act. You can use the mini to time align 4 subs, but I am sure if that is worth the down side of having another component in the signal chain, such as more conversion, and more limited output (the mini's maximum output is 2 V). It gets complicated quickly. By the way, would you like to buy mine, shipping within Canada, hopefully GTA wouldn't be too bad.:) I am also thinking about upgrading it for USD200 (a FW upgrade) so that I can try Dirac Live again in one of my two channel setup but am still wondering if it is worth so much money just to play with Dirac (already tried the PC version once and found nothing audible).
 
N

Nidhin Raj

Audiophyte
I think you have come to the right place, finally!.:D

There are many hearsay out there, many are ignorant to the powerful Placebo and expectation bias effects that virtually no one is immune to.

If you are happy with using the pre outs of the 5010 with you Emotiva amp then I would just keep using it until you are really ready for 9.1.6. By that time, more bugs would have been fixed.., or more bug free devices would be available for you to choose from.

For 9.1.6, unless Denon offers one by the time you are ready, you would have no choice but to go with an expensive AV preamp processor. Currently the best measured Denon AVR-X8500H and the A110 can only do up to 7.1.6. You can connect 15 speakers so that you can flip between Atmos and and Auro 3D but it cannot process 15 channels simultaneously.

If you are fine with just 13 channel processing then currently the AVR-X8500H measured better than any separate processors, it beats even the $15,000 Storm Audio. So I would suggest you ignore those You-tube videos, especially the one in which the two gents said they found even a AV7705 (might have been 7706) sounded better (in terms of channel separation, sound stage etc. blablablabla) than even the more expensive SR8015 (that measured much better). They obviously have no idea what's inside those gear, it was the most hilarious HT video I have seen.:D Those two guys seem to think any any separates (so called) would beat any AVR. I hope that's not the one you viewed.;) One more thing, those guys typically would use the popular arguments that its your ears, stupid, not specs and measurements.., sounds convincing for sure.
Thanks A lot for your feedback. Also wanted to know if there is any benefit in having a better DAC chipset. Denon uses AK4458VN in their AVRs and Anthem AVM70 uses AK4490. Does this have any impact on sound?
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
Okay that's different! The OP has two subs, if he goes with 4 then that needs to be considered. For me though, there is still the question of balancing act. You can use the mini to time align 4 subs, but I am sure if that is worth the down side of having another component in the signal chain, such as more conversion, and more limited output (the mini's maximum output is 2 V). It gets complicated quickly. By the way, would you like to buy mine, shipping within Canada, hopefully GTA wouldn't be too bad.:) I am also thinking about upgrading it for USD200 (a FW upgrade) so that I can try Dirac Live again in one of my two channel setup but am still wondering if it is worth so much money just to play with Dirac (already tried the PC version once and found nothing audible).
PENG, If I had a known that you were selling, I would have bought yours but I already have one waiting to be used for when I get my 2nd Rythmik sub for my basement setup. :)

There really is no downside for adding the miniDSP. Its placed between the LFE out on the AVR and the sub input and since we are dealing with bass, the distortion tolerances (even if they were audible which they aren't) are much higher before becomming audible.

Look here... https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/3dbs-great-room-mainfloor-townhouse-open-concept-setup.113655/post-1469217 post 24 and down. I've bought a 3rd PSB Subsonic6 and waiting for COVID numbers to reduce before driving down and picking it up. This room is a bear to dial in.

Are the sub channels on the Denon's and Marantz independent or are they slaved to one another. If they are slaved or if Auddessy treats both sub channels as one, then one needs a miniDSP to time align the subs.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Are the sub channels on the Denon's and Marantz independent or are they slaved to one another. If they are slaved or if Auddessy treats both sub channels as one, then one needs a miniDSP to time align the subs.
They are independent, each has its own preamp/DAC channel. The LFE channel itself is, of course just one channel and that's why you probably noticed I consistently use terms like 5.1.4, 7.1.4 instead of .2. D+M are not consistent, sometime they too use the correct .1 term but many times they used .2, for commercial effects I guess.

Some Onkyo models had just XT32 (now they use accuEQ) but D+M's XT32 has always been XT32 Sub EQHT as far as I know and the Sub EQ HT part deal with aligning two subs.

According to Audyssey:

"Audyssey LabsFebruary 06, 2012 17:01
MultEQ XT32 is the flagship version of our technology to measure and correct room acoustical problems. Sub EQ HT is a method we came up with to deal with multiple subs. If you only have one sub then it's not in use. The idea is to first measure each sub separately, then apply delay and level settings so that the two subs are now time and level aligned. Then we ping them once more as "one" sub to derive the room correction filter. I am pretty sure that the 70.3 is using this."

They used the term "multiple", but really just two.

I read about Dirac Live's new add-on feature that allows for time aligning "multi-subs". That seems quite a jump from doing just one sub to "multi" whatever that means. So far I am unable to get more information about it, no idea how that is supposed to work.

As far as EQ'ing two subs with my 11 speakers (actually only 7 when using the mini), I put the mini back into box only after spending many hours and plotting tens, probably close to a hundred graphs using it with or without Audyssey and getting no better result than just using Audyssey. In fact, now that I can use the Audyssey App and Ratbuddyssey's freeware user interface, Audyssey can clearly do a better job and using the mini. That's of course just on paper, for real world use I don't know if I can tell a difference either way.

So I think you are right about no downside in terms of audibility, but on paper I still don't think the 2 V limit and and double conversion, besides the extra heat and cabling. But again, I don't have experience with using 4 subwoofers from the sub out so I cannot comment on that at all. I do currently use 5 subwoofers, but only 2 on the sub outs, the other 3 are connected with the surround left, right and surround back speakers so that's a different story.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
It's too bad no one ever implemented Audyssey's ability to manage four subs independently....that could have been interesting. For two subs Audyssey XT32/SubEQ works very well (and a lot easier than using a minidsp :) ).
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I have heard a lot of YouTube reviews stating that AV processors have better components and channel separation. Hence was considering costlier AV processors. Any thoughts?
Some AVP may have better components than some AVR. Some AVP may have lesser quality components than some AVR.

Depending on how you set them up, you probably won’t hear a difference.
 

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