Denon AVR-4520ci has arrived and is installed.

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Thanks, I did follow your link and see that they have the 32 bit DACs but no where can I confirm which BB model. I am hoping they have at least the 1796, that is the same as those in my 3910. I am sure the top 1792 will only be found in ADTG's AVP processor or the 5308 as well. It is not that I believe they sound better but their specs are better. Engineers are naturally big on specs you know.

I will be pulling the trigger on the 8801 shortly, a totally irrational decision but..... Oh, I prefer Denon over Yamaha too, but mainly because of Audyssey.

Did you see the HTM review of the 8801? No surprises I think. XTalk in low 80dB's and SNR in low 120dB's, which is very good.

 

[PENG]

The 8801 is possibly the best out there- congratulations! I could pull the cover on the 4520 to find out?? I just don't want to jeopardize my warranty!

Thanks again but I will never expect anyone to risk their warranty to satisfy my curiosity. I just remember that the 1791,96,92 (the best) are 24 bit DACs so the 4520 and 8801 will likely have the PCM1795. The 1795 has the same THD and SNR specs as the 1796 so it should be good enough for me. Obviously the 24 bit 1792 would have been the best but it may be unrealistic to expect that in a 3K unit. Anyway I am going to email Marantz and see if they will tell me. Regardless, if the thing is in stock I should be playing with XT32 in a couple of weeks.

 

[PENG]

The 1792 is also found in my Denon DVD-3800BDCI.

What can I say, you got 3 sets of those 132 SNR 0.0004% THD babies under one roof, other than you can't tell the difference between them and the lower tier 1796 or even the 1791 in my 4308 but you just feel good having them right?

 

[PENG]

Did you see the HTM review of the 8801? No surprises I think. XTalk in low 80dB's and SNR in low 120dB's, which is very good.

I read the review. No surprises base on history data, but surprised in general that despite all those copper shielding in the chassis and the use of toroidal transformer, Marantz could not beat Yamaha and even Denon in their cross talk specs. It is just one example of how well designed E-I core transformer and basic electromagnetic shielding technique can go a long way in minimizing cross talks and other noises.

 

[surveyor]

I read the review. No surprises base on history data, but surprised in general that despite all those copper shielding in the chassis and the use of toroidal transformer, Marantz could not beat Yamaha and even Denon in their cross talk specs. It is just one example of how well designed EI frame transformer and basic electromagnetic shielding technique can go a long way in minimizing cross talks and other noises.

The engineering and production expertise is unreal! You can bet that the Marantz has a super low noise floor and will bring out the details in audio and visual.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What can I say, you got 3 sets of those 132 SNR 0.0004% THD babies under one roof, other than you can't tell the difference between them and the lower tier 1796 or even the 1791 in my 4308 but you just feel good having them right?

Exactly, all about NUMBERS........ Aesthetics & numbers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I read the review. No surprises base on history data, but surprised in general that despite all those copper shielding in the chassis and the use of toroidal transformer, Marantz could not beat Yamaha and even Denon in their cross talk specs. It is just one example of how well designed E-I core transformer and basic electromagnetic shielding technique can go a long way in minimizing cross talks and other noises.

What about the $550 Outlaw pre-pro in the same magazine that has a Crosstalk of -93dB & SNR of -121dB? How is that possible for $550?
"There was no multichannel input to measure. The analog THD+N was less than 0.020% at 1 kHz with a 100-millivolt input and the volume control set to -09 dB. Crosstalk with a 100-mV input was –91.28 dB left to right and –93.81 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with “A” weighting was –121.85 dBrA."


......

Wait, how did I miss this? The $600 Emotiva pre-pro has even better measurements than the $10,000 Bryston:
Emotiva UMC-200 Preamp/Processor HT Labs Measures | Home Theater
"Response from the multichannel input to the main output measures –0.20 dB at 10 Hz, –0.05 dB at 20 Hz, –0.02 dB at 20 kHz, and –0.12 dB at 50 kHz. The analog THD+N was less than 0.016 percent at 1 kHz with a 100-millivolt input and the volume control set to 65.5. Crosstalk with a 100-mV input was –93.91 dB left to right and –92.23 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with “A” weighting was –127.94 dBrA."

.........

$1800 Sherbourn pre-pro:
Sherbourn PT-7030 Surround Processor & PA 7-350 Amplifier HT Labs Measures | Home Theater
"Response from the multichannel input to the main output measures –0.17 dB at 10 Hz, –0.05 dB at 20 Hz, –0.09 dB at 20 kHz, and –0.54 dB at 50 kHz. The analog THD+N was less than 0.032 percent at 1 kHz with a 100-millivolt input and the volume control set to 84. Crosstalk with a 100-mV input was –80.56 dB left to right and –78.94 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with “A” weighting was –118.88 dBrA."

...........

$10,000 Bryston SP3:
Bryston SP3 Surround Processor and 9B SST² Amplifier HT Labs Measures | Home Theater
"Response from the multichannel input to the main output measures –0.05 dB at 10 Hz, –0.01 dB at 20 Hz, –0.06 dB at 20 kHz, and –0.42 dB at 50 kHz. The analog THD+N was less than 0.022 percent at 1 kHz with a 100-millivolt input and the volume control set to +2.5. Crosstalk with a 100-mV input was –92.92 dB left to right and –93.44 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with “A” weighting was –121.59 dBrA."

 

[Denon4520Owner]

I've had the 4520ci for a few weeks now and it's a fantastic piece of equipment.

I had a Denon 2105, so the improvements over that earlier model are significant. HDMI connections, operating the 4520 using the iPhone or iPad, networking support, Airplay, and separate output for a 2nd monitor are all huge improvements.

In my set up (5.1/zone 2/zone 3), the main zone is in my living room, zone 2 is on my deck, zone 3 is not currently being used but will be run to a bathroom, and zone 4 is connected to the tv in my kitchen.

I have one FiOS DVR and an Apple TV connected to the 4520. All connections are HDMI and all the cables were purchased with the 4520. I also have an optical audio cable connecting the DVR and the 4520. The 4520 is also connected to the internet via cat5 and my main router, and I have updated the firmware.

There are a few operational items that that are proving irritating though.

1. Main Zone/Zone 4 interoperability - when I have zone 4 on in the kitchen and the main zone tv is on in the living room and turn the zone 4 tv off, video and audio gets cut to the main zone, the main zone screen turns to snow. Sometimes the audio/video will come back the main zone in a couple of minutes. If not, when I turn the zone 4 tv back on (or turn zone 4 off), will audio/video to the main zone be restored. I've tried swapping the DVR with a 2nd DVR in the house and that has no impact. I've changed the HDMI control settings on both the Zone 4 TV and the 4520 setup, but that hasn't had any impact either.

2. Pass thru video - I initially had the zone 4 tv connected to the 2nd monitor out, but quickly noticed that when I turned the kitchen tv on in the morning, that the pass thru HDMI connection to the DVR would drop the audio within a few minutes. The only way to fix that was to turn the DVR off and back on. I tried this with a 2nd DVR and got the same result.

3. Zone Usage - when I have the main zone and zone 2 on, the only way to get the zone 2 speakers to work is to use the remote (make sure it's on the main zone first and AVR function), press the option button, then select All Zone Stereo On. If you change from one source to another, you have to repeat these steps. This was a lot easier on the 2105.

4. Standard def commercials - on some cable channels, local ads are barely audible. I couldn't figure out how to normalize the audio so that it's consistent. This was never an issue with my old 2105.

Those are my only complaints right now. I've gone through the manual to see if I'm doing anything incorrectly, but nothing's leaping out at me.

Like I said, it's a great unit, if I can figure out some of these minor issues, it'll be even better.

 

[PENG]

What about the $550 Outlaw pre-pro in the same magazine that has a Crosstalk of -93dB & SNR of -121dB? How is that possible for $550?
"There was no multichannel input to measure. The analog THD+N was less than 0.020% at 1 kHz with a 100-millivolt input and the volume control set to -09 dB. Crosstalk with a 100-mV input was –91.28 dB left to right and –93.81 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with “A” weighting was –121.85 dBrA."


......

Wait, how did I miss this? The $600 Emotiva pre-pro has even better measurements than the $10,000 Bryston:
Emotiva UMC-200 Preamp/Processor HT Labs Measures | Home Theater
"Response from the multichannel input to the main output measures –0.20 dB at 10 Hz, –0.05 dB at 20 Hz, –0.02 dB at 20 kHz, and –0.12 dB at 50 kHz. The analog THD+N was less than 0.016 percent at 1 kHz with a 100-millivolt input and the volume control set to 65.5. Crosstalk with a 100-mV input was –93.91 dB left to right and –92.23 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with “A” weighting was –127.94 dBrA."

.........

$1800 Sherbourn pre-pro:
Sherbourn PT-7030 Surround Processor & PA 7-350 Amplifier HT Labs Measures | Home Theater
"Response from the multichannel input to the main output measures –0.17 dB at 10 Hz, –0.05 dB at 20 Hz, –0.09 dB at 20 kHz, and –0.54 dB at 50 kHz. The analog THD+N was less than 0.032 percent at 1 kHz with a 100-millivolt input and the volume control set to 84. Crosstalk with a 100-mV input was –80.56 dB left to right and –78.94 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with “A” weighting was –118.88 dBrA."

...........

$10,000 Bryston SP3:
Bryston SP3 Surround Processor and 9B SST² Amplifier HT Labs Measures | Home Theater
"Response from the multichannel input to the main output measures –0.05 dB at 10 Hz, –0.01 dB at 20 Hz, –0.06 dB at 20 kHz, and –0.42 dB at 50 kHz. The analog THD+N was less than 0.022 percent at 1 kHz with a 100-millivolt input and the volume control set to +2.5. Crosstalk with a 100-mV input was –92.92 dB left to right and –93.44 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with “A” weighting was –121.59 dBrA."

Once in a while you will see some HTM measurements that seems inexplicable, or surprising, to put it mildly. I have no idea how those $500 to $600 units managed to yield such good CT and SNR figures. I do think D&M products are very quiet and I have no issue with CT even in two channel critical listening. I would buy Outlaw if their products offer comparable feature sets that my preferred D&M AVR/Preamp pro offer but current ly they don't. Same for Emos but they have to look much better before I would buying any of their products.

 

[ichigo]

The Denon sounds very good at lower listening levels- in fact just a good- but definitely not better!
My speakers are all large- as Audyssey 32 verifies. That's where the Denon AVR-4520 is limited- at higher listening levels- it compresses! It has roughly 30,000 uF capacitance total for seven channels verses 158,200 total capacitance in the Outlaw Model 770. Not to mention the 2 each large torroidal transformers in the Outlaw versus 1 L core in the Denon. This isn't a sugar pill fixation believe me.

Did you check and see it was two 15,000uF caps, or just an estimate? I read in a review the 4520 actually has two 22,000uF caps.

 

[surveyor]

Did you check and see it was two 15,000uF caps, or just an estimate? I read in a review the 4520 actually has two 22,000uF caps.

I guessed- your provbably correct.

Thanks.

 

[PENG]

Did you check and see it was two 15,000uF caps, or just an estimate? I read in a review the 4520 actually has two 22,000uF caps.

I would say at least 15,000 X 2. The fact that the amps in an AVR such as the 4520 share the same big power supply there is no reason for it to sound compressed unless pushed to harmful SPL in a medium size room. I know (just reading their specs) some power amps, at least one Emo model and probably an Anthem, has less or about the same capacitance per channel in 2 channel applicaton (obviously no context in MCH applications as I stated before). So for me listening in normal to reasonably loud (say THX) level in serious 2 ch stereo mode I was not surprised that my ex 4308 had no trouble matching the performance of my most powerful amp in the room. As I said, that was back by facts and figures, so I was well equipped to fight off Placebo and forced to face reality. Having said that I would still be acquiring more amps/preamps for other reasons but certainly not SQ or SPL. If you don't have those other reasons, then just sit back, relax and enjoy your top notch AVR. If there is any further doubt, just try to convince yourself it has all the juice you need.

 

[ichigo]

30,000uF would be pretty dissapointing given its price and weight (36lbs), it would be comparatively a much lower value offering at its price compared to the Onkyo (44,000uF, 55lbs) and Yamaha (36,000uF, 41lbs) flagships.

 

[PENG]

30,000uF would be pretty dissapointing given its price and weight (36lbs), it would be comparatively a much lower value offering at its price compared to the Onkyo (44,000uF, 55lbs) and Yamaha (36,000uF, 41lbs) flagships.

I used to put more weight on weights but not any more, I mean I still do but only to a point. I think once it gets over 25 to 30 lbs or so you really have to consider other factors. For class AB amps as an example, if you go by weight the Emo amps will be most powerful, but according to various bench test measurements a similiarly rated (power output) Bryston amp will give you much more Watts/lb than the Emo. Choice of material, chassis/enclosure, and cooling system design all have major impact on the final weight of the product, again, of course only to a point. I have little doubt that a 55 lb class A/B amp is going to be more powerful than a 25 lb one. By the way I am also not so sure if the Onkyo weighs 55 lbs despite what and where you might have read from, as I have noticed discrepancies in the past in how they specified slightly different weight in different part of their websites and/or in different documents of their (manufacturers) own. So a 55 lb unit could probably weight 50 lb when you put it on your personal scale, and that 36 lb one could weigh 40 lbs. I found this kind of discrepancies in speakers too, hard to believe but you have to believe when you see it with your own eyes. I have no idea why that is the case, but I thought I should share my experience/findings so people may keep this in mind. How many of us are crazy enough to actually weigh them in our home? I admit I am that crazy. No big deal, to me it is just a point of interest. Regarding the 4520, I tend to think you may be right about the 2X22,000 uf. I seem to recall something like that for my ex 4308. I still have a 3805 and I may open it up and have a look this weekend.

 

[surveyor]

What's the best Auto-EQ system? YPAO / MACC / Audyssey / ARC or others

 

[surveyor]

What's the best Auto-EQ system? YPAO / MACC / Audyssey / ARC or others

The Denon AVR-4520ci has 5 each stereo pair of BB PCM1795 32-Bit, 192-kHz DACs. That's a total of 10 that I was able to observe.

 

[surveyor]

The Denon AVR-4520ci has 5 each stereo pair of BB PCM1795 32-Bit, 192-kHz DACs. That's a total of 10 that I was able to observe.

I requested the type of DAC's and the Block Capacitance in the Denon AVR-4520ci from the Denon support site on the web. I waited -but no response. I then called them- I recieved a less than friendly response. They said it was propriety information. This would lead me to think they are much less in capacitance than 20,000 uF. I'm sure of the DACs listed above though! They did say the would see to it that the information requested reached engineering.

 

[PENG]

The Denon AVR-4520ci has 5 each stereo pair of BB PCM1795 32-Bit, 192-kHz DACs. That's a total of 10 that I was able to observe.

And no fewer than three 32-bit Sharc DSP device according to this HCC review:

DENON AVR-2450 awarded with REFERENCE STATUS by Home Cinema Choice - Homemation | Homemation

Somehow they made a typo in the model number, it is in fact the 4520 they reviewed.

 

[surveyor]

After I run Audyssey setup -which level matched my subs- should I turn their output back up- or leave it as calibrated?

 

[Alex2507]

After I run Audyssey setup -which level matched my subs- should I turn their output back up- or leave it as calibrated?

Turn it back up to what and from where? I think I would leave it as is for a decent trial period (weeks) and then decide if maybe a +3db increase is to your liking over another few week period.