Shek5150

Shek5150

Audioholic
Greetings friends & thanks in advance to anyone willing to take the time to consider my post.

My Denon AVR 4311ci will not send a signal to my subs . . . I called a local A/V serivce center & though he didn't inspect my AVR, he did respond with "well, if you're getting no signal thru to your subs, then it's likely an issue w/ the motherboard" & he further stated that "if this were the case then it'd likely be more expensive to repair -vs- purchasing a new AVR" . . . did I already say: Grrrrrr!!! (((Side Note: I ran Audyssey (several times) & it would never recognize my subs; I was able to skip the subs set-up during the audyssey process . .. but sad to say, 'no subs for me!' . . .))))

Anyway, so here are my questions:

1) Does this sound right? This Denon was my first purchase of a receiver of this price range; but I find it so hard to believe that the repair cost could be over the $1,600 that I originally paid.

2) I purchased this in 2012; so, it's been about 5 years & kaputt . . . it doesn't seem like I should be having this sort of issue after only 5 years.

Well, I guess that's about it for now . . .

Again, thanks
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Greetings friends & thanks in advance to anyone willing to take the time to consider my post.

My Denon AVR 4311ci will not send a signal to my subs . . . I called a local A/V serivce center & though he didn't inspect my AVR, he did respond with "well, if you're getting no signal thru to your subs, then it's likely an issue w/ the motherboard" & he further stated that "if this were the case then it'd likely be more expensive to repair -vs- purchasing a new AVR" . . . did I already say: Grrrrrr!!! (((Side Note: I ran Audyssey (several times) & it would never recognize my subs; I was able to skip the subs set-up during the audyssey process . .. but sad to say, 'no subs for me!' . . .))))

Anyway, so here are my questions:

1) Does this sound right? This Denon was my first purchase of a receiver of this price range; but I find it so hard to believe that the repair cost could be over the $1,600 that I originally paid.

2) I purchased this in 2012; so, it's been about 5 years & kaputt . . . it doesn't seem like I should be having this sort of issue after only 5 years.

Well, I guess that's about it for now . . .

Again, thanks
Have you tested the sub? If not connect a CD player or any other known good source to the sub input and see if you get sound out of the sub.

If the sub works then the problem is the receiver.

If it is the receiver go to your manual and do one hard reset back to factory default settings and reset up your receiver. If that does not work then yes, the receiver does need replacement or repair.

Unfortunately five to seven years is often the life of receivers.

Now the tech may be right or wrong. It could be that the output socket for the sub has come off the board, especially if a heavy cable has been hanging from it. Sometimes if you are skillful you can repair this type of problem.

Any other type of problem is likely to require a new board. These days boards are just about impossible to service because of robot mounted surface components.

The next issue is that these days the manufacturers do not release service manuals and or circuits to anyone who is not a company certified repair center. Without that finding the problem is impossible.

The next issue is that finding the part even for the repair center may not be possible.

Finding spare parts is a problem across the industry right now. Denon/Marantz have sold their parts business to Encompass, who seem not the stock parts. Why I don't know.

Anyhow I would contact Denon for their nearest certified repair center and contact them.

The tech is right in one way, the cost of repair may well exceed the cost of the depreciated value of a five year old receiver. If not exceeding it, will be close.

Finally, if you do have to replace this receiver, do not get another receiver. These days receivers have too much crammed into one box, especially processing and power amps.

I personally have never liked the idea of receivers and don't use them and won't.

I strongly recommend a pre/pro and external amps. Reliability is likely to be much better that route. I note pre/pros on the second hand market hold their value much better then receivers. Overtime if you go that route you will be money ahead.

I note the my 10 year old pre/pro is fetching 2/3 of its original price on eBay at the moment.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
If you can confirm that the sub is actually working and you have done a hard microprocessor reset and it doesn’t fix the issue, then I say it’s time to buy a new Denon.

The X3000 is on sale for $599 brand new on Amazon.

The X4300 was on sale a few months for $799 brand new on Amazon. Watch for that.

By next Summer, the X4400 will probably be $799 brand new on Amazon.

I think the X3000 and X4000 series will sound as good to you as your current Denon and most other pre-pros regardless of brand and price.

And spending $600 or $800 is a lot less painful. :D

As far as reliable, I’ve owned Denon AVRs that is still working great after 10 years. Most of my Denon AVRs are over 5 YR old.
 
Last edited:
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
If you can confirm that the sub is actually working and you have done a hard microprocessor reset and it doesn’t fix the issue, then I say it’s time to buy a new Denon.

The X4300 was on sale a few months for $799 brand new on Amazon. Watch for that.

By next Summer, the X4400 will probably be $799 brand new on Amazon.

I think the X4000 series will sound every bit as good as your current Denon and most other pre-pros.
Yes, and how long before that one blows up? The whole concept of the receiver is now passed, if it ever had a time. From an engineering standpoint it is a terrible idea.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Since the OPs current receiver has pre out he does have a work around. He could connect the right and left front pre outs to his sub, and use the sub crossover and set the sub level by ear. He would need to set at least the front left and right speakers to large.

Probably would still sound good.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yes, and how long before that one blows up? The whole concept of the receiver is now passed, if it ever had a time. From an engineering standpoint it is a terrible idea.
As I’ve said, I own Denon that are 10 YR old and still working. The 15-16 YR Denon’s I gave my parents and brothers are still working.

There is no reason to spend $3K for pre-pros and Amps when you can get a nice brand new Denon X3300 for $600.

Just stick a $10 120mm USB fan atop the AVR to pull heat out.

And I bet you AVR will still be around 20 YR from now.
 
Last edited:
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Now if people want a pre-pro + amp, that's great.

But for most people who just want a convenient AVR solution that will sound as good as any separates but costs a fraction of the price, I highly recommend the Denon X3300 on sale for $599 brand new or X4300 on sale for $799 brand new if you can find one.

Even if the $599 AVR only lasts 5 YR (all of mine have lasted much longer), the $599 price is a lot easier to swallow IMO.
 
Last edited:
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Unfortunately five to seven years is often the life of receivers.
I would like to take exception to such claim. I have purchased the following Denon AVR over the past 10-15 years.

AVR-3805, AVR-150X?, AVR4308, AVR-1911, all of them are older than the OP's 4311CI, with the exception of the AVR-15XX (can't remember the exact number, bought from Costco cheap cheap) that I sold to a friend, all the other ones are still working perfectly and I know that for sure because they are still used by family members and I am using the 13 years old 3805 in my 3rd separate system.

Granted, it is possible that the newer ones are not designed to be as long lasting, but based on Denon's long track record, we probably need more time before we can draw that conclusion. One thing for sure, we have both been on this forum for a long time, I can tell you this is the first time I read about sub outs failure so it makes me wonder if there is a simple explanation that caused such failure.

Oh, I do understand your point about jamming x number of amps in a small box, but I think at least Denon seems to have put in some counter measures, such as going from no fans to two, with temperature sensors strategically positioned.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I would like to take exception to such claim. I have purchased the following Denon AVR over the past 10-15 years.

AVR-3805, AVR-150X?, AVR4308, AVR-1911, all of them are older than the OP's 4311CI, with the exception of the AVR-15XX (can't remember the exact number, bought from Costco cheap cheap) that I sold to a friend, all the other ones are still working perfectly and I know that for sure because they are still used by family members and I am using the 13 years old 3805 in my 3rd separate system.

Granted, it is possible that the newer ones are not designed to be as long lasting, but based on Denon's long track record, we probably need more time before we can draw that conclusion. One thing for sure, we have both been on this forum for a long time, I can tell you this is the first time I read about sub outs failure so it makes me wonder if there is a simple explanation that caused such failure.

Oh, I do understand your point about jamming x number of amps in a small box, but I think at least Denon seems to have put in some counter measures, such as going from no fans to two, with temperature sensors strategically positioned.
Actually we have had quite a few posts about sub out failures recently, which I find surprising.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Now if people want a pre-pro + amp, that's great.

But for most people who just want a convinient AVR solution that will sound as good as any separates but costs a fraction of the price, I highly recommend the Denon X3300 on sale for $599 brand new or X4300 on sale for $799 brand new if you can find one.

Even if the $599 AVR only lasts 5 YR (all of mine have lasted much longer), the $599 price is a lot easier to swallow IMO.
You just can't produce all those features and have all those amps, unless really nasty cheap ones for $600 even with slave labor. Just think about it.

The fact is the receiver are now going over the cliff, at those prices they have to. They are now cheap disposable utility items. If that is what you want fine, but I don't.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Actually we have had quite a few posts about sub out failures recently, which I find surprising.
Well then I must have missed those post, and in that case perhaps we can come up with a list of possible causes such as:

1. Sub levels cranked too high to begin with, DEQ may up the peaks by another 6 to 12 dB depending on how close the user listens at reference level.
2. Subwoofer developed a fault, in such way that the AVR's protective circuit may not be adequate for?

We do know lots of users prefer to crank the level up after running Audyssey, and then they engage DEQ that is supposed to level off as the volume is cranked towards reference level, but if the user listens at a few dB below reference, I am not sure if DEQ would always taper off correctly. That, on top the boost the user put on the levels, could potential result in over driving the sub out circuitry.

Any other ideas?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Well then I must have missed those post, and in that case perhaps we can come up with a list of possible causes such as:

1. Sub levels cranked too high to begin with, DEQ may up the peaks by another 6 to 12 dB depending on how close the user listens at reference level.
2. Subwoofer developed a fault, in such way that the AVR's protective circuit may not be adequate for?

We do know lots of users prefer to crank the level up after running Audyssey, and then they engage DEQ that is supposed to level off as the volume is cranked towards reference level, but if the user listens at a few dB below reference, I am not sure if DEQ would always taper off correctly. That, on top the boost the user put on the levels, could potential result in over driving the sub out circuitry.

Any other ideas?
I don't know, of any reason other than processor failure, or the ICs in the crossover. The strange thing is it has been across brands including Yamaha.

I have no idea if there is a chipset used across brands here.

I have found this the most surprising of faults.

I do wonder though if it is frail boards from a mechanical standpoint.

Sub leads tend to be thicker and heavier and go round the room where they can get snagged and tripped on. So it is possible the socket is getting yanked fracturing the board.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
As I’ve said, I own Denon that are 10 YR old and still working. The 15-16 YR Denon’s I gave my parents and brothers are still working.

There is no reason to spend $3K for pre-pros and Amps when you can get a nice brand new Denon X3300 for $600.

Just stick a $10 120mm USB fan atop the AVR to pull heat out.

And I bet you AVR will still be around 20 YR from now.
IMHO..
Can't really compare a 10 year old Denon to their products built today. Back then the majority was built in their Denon owned factories in Japan, then they went to out-sourcing from China (Inkel/Sherwood) and now to Vietnam. After their 2012 marketing debacle of over-distribution, going for market share trying to compete with Yamaha opening up all of the internet sellers they lost total control of their pricing/profit margins while losing the support of the more profitable CEDIA installer specialists. This is also when Bain Capitiol (Mitt Romney) pulled back their $ underwriting of D&M Holdings. Up until then, Denon clearly dominated the AVR market with many new technologies and features including THX while maintaining excellent build-quality from Japan.

Just my $0.02.. ;)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I can't say much about future reliability of these new AVRs. As PENG says, time will tell. Two of my Denons (both X3000 series) were bought in the past 2 years. So I will soon see if these new AVRs have reliability issues.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
You just can't produce all those features and have all those amps, unless really nasty cheap ones for $600 even with slave labor. Just think about it.

The fact is the receiver are now going over the cliff, at those prices they have to. They are now cheap disposable utility items. If that is what you want fine, but I don't.
The X3000s are $1,000 AVR, not cheap disposable utility items. They are currently on sale for $600. But they cost $1,000 when not on sale.

Are you claiming your external amps and Marantz pre-pro sound better than the Denon amps in these $1,000 AVR?

The goal of any audio system is great sound. Unless you are claiming that your pre-pros and amps sound better than these $1,000 AVR, I don’t see why you would consider these $1,000 AVRs cheap disposable utility items.

I have owned and heard enough of these $1,000 Denon AVRs and high-end separates to know that they don't sound significantly better than one another, especially in Direct mode.

I don't consider anything that sound comparable to high-end separates as cheap disposable utility items.
 
Last edited:
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I usually try a soft reset first (simply unplugging the Denon for a while) and see if that changes anything, then a hard reset.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Really? Haven't noticed....how many is that?
I also have not heard of people complaining about subwoofer output issues on AVR.

I have heard plenty of people complaining about their subwoofer internal amp malfunctioning.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I also have not heard of people complaining about subwoofer output issues on AVR.

I have heard plenty of people complaining about their subwoofer internal amp malfunctioning.
Well, there is another current guy posting about a Sony's sub outs apparently not working which may have been something that happened during a recent move.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
IMHO..
Can't really compare a 10 year old Denon to their products built today. Back then the majority was built in their Denon owned factories in Japan, then they went to out-sourcing from China (Inkel/Sherwood) and now to Vietnam. After their 2012 marketing debacle of over-distribution, going for market share trying to compete with Yamaha opening up all of the internet sellers they lost total control of their pricing/profit margins while losing the support of the more profitable CEDIA installer specialists. This is also when Bain Capitiol (Mitt Romney) pulled back their $ underwriting of D&M Holdings. Up until then, Denon clearly dominated the AVR market with many new technologies and features including THX while maintaining excellent build-quality from Japan.

Just my $0.02.. ;)
That is exactly the point. Now add the exponential complexity in the interim and you have the perfect storm.
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top