Denon AVR-3803 vs. Yahama Rx-V3000

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'>Speaking of SONY, most of the cinema halls run by SONY are featuring SONY's proprietary DSP mode for movies and they sound really great. The DSP modes on SONY's TA-9000ES sound awesome too.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Rob,

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> ahh Bruce, I think the marketing gods have you in their grasp it this case.   Which is why you &quot;won't buy a receiver&quot;.</td></tr></table>
Actually, that's not a true statement.  My speakers (Dynaudio Contours), which are 4 Ohm with an 86dB sensitivity rating, are simply too difficult a load for any receiver.  Receivers simply don't have enough current capability to drive these speakers adequately and it's a certainty receivers could never drive them to DD/DTS reference levels without distorting, or going into shutdown mode.  I've already experienced a receiver's amp clipping and destroying tweeters once (on different 4 Ohm speakers), that's enough.  This is why I use separate amps and thus a prepro to go with it.


<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Meridian and Lexicon implement standards they don't create them. They do the bleeding edge stuff and some other value adds in, but it's not &quot;from the ground up&quot;. That's why you do not see these companies listed in movie credits or serving a long line of anxious licencees.</td></tr></table>
Ever heard of MLP (Meridian Lossless Packing)?  Do you consider that simply an implementation and not a standard created by Meridian that is licensed and used by others?

Happen to hear of the movies &quot;Lord of the Rings&quot;, &quot;The Cell&quot;, &quot;Blade II&quot; ?    Guess what, the credits on these DVDs list them as being Logic7 encoded for playback with a Logic7 decoder.

Just an FYI, to bring you up-to-date.  

</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>

Bruce : Rob,

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Meridian and Lexicon implement standards they don't create them. They do the bleeding edge stuff and some other value adds in, but it's not &quot;from the ground up&quot;. That's why you do not see these companies listed in movie credits or serving a long line of anxious licencees.

Ever heard of MLP (Meridian Lossless Packing)? &nbsp;Do you consider that simply an implementation and not a standard created by Meridian that is licensed and used by others?

Happen to hear of the movies &quot;Lord of the Rings&quot;, &quot;The Cell&quot;, &quot;Blade II&quot; ? &nbsp; &nbsp;Guess what, the credits on these DVDs list them as being Logic7 encoded for playback with a Logic7 decoder.

Just an FYI, to bring you up-to-date. &nbsp;

</td></tr></table>
Bruce ,

DVD-Audio you say? &nbsp;well ya, I guess your right, I can't say I follow the &quot;music&quot; side of things too much. &nbsp;Looks good and is licencesed out to lots of players. &nbsp;good info, I never knew

About Logic7, &nbsp;LOTR I like, (don't know about the other two). &nbsp;I did a google search for &quot;Logic7 DVD&quot; and got nada about it. &nbsp;I just can't seem to find much addo about it. &nbsp;I did dig around looking for more info on Logic7 when I &nbsp;looked at the used Lexicon. &nbsp;Not much about it was to be found, other than Harman saying &quot;Logic 7 is great&quot;. &nbsp;

I own the LOTR SE, and I did not notice a &quot;Logic 7&quot; surround playback format in the menu. &nbsp; Can you point me to some more info on Logic7 other than what Harmans' web sites have got? &nbsp;I want to believe there is another industry &quot;player&quot; other than DTS working to push new technology. &nbsp;(for cinima anyway)

But I don't see Harman or Merdian in that kind of position. &nbsp;I mean DVD-Audio looks good, but I see that as more of a &quot;anything but sony&quot; move then a &quot;This is incredible technology and we must have it&quot; thing. &nbsp;Don't get me wrong, from what games developers say, you DON'T want Sony setting the standards.

I still see Logic7 as more of a Harman gimmik, just from the way market it themselves. &nbsp;It's in everyhting from $13k right down to $200 receivers. &nbsp;When a manufacture has something really good and in demand, they usually place a price premium on it. &nbsp;Like I said, &nbsp;prove me wrong and I'll be happy. &nbsp;

Rob</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> I still see Logic7 as more of a Harman gimmik, just from the way market it themselves.  It's in everyhting from $13k right down to $200 receivers.  When a manufacture has something really good and in demand, they usually place a price premium on it.  Like I said,  prove me wrong and I'll be happy.   </td></tr></table>
Those are very different versions of Logic7, Lexicon licenses the low-end versions to Harmon Kardon for receivers, even though they are both part of Harmon Int'l.  

The higher end versions work on Digital mono thru Digital 5.1 inputs as well as 2-channel analog and have lot's of adjustable parameters the lower-end versions don't have, and the lower end versions (on any of the low-end receivers) only work on 2-channel analog inputs.   They all create 7.1 output channels, including stereo rears not mono rears.

Gimmicky?  I'm not sure what your in-depth knowledge of surround technology is, but that is not an accurate adjective for Logic7.  

For some heavy reading on surround technology and other audio topics, I highly recommend some of the Harmon white papers.  
white papers</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Bruce,

The tone of your last post is pretty much flame bait and I can see &quot;your mind&quot; is already made up.

Thanks for pointing my to another place for info on Logic 7, I never thought the Lexicon site would have any!

 Checkout how often Harman licenses it's own technology to itself!  The industry is moving this way FAST.

While we are pointing at sites let me send you here
You'll need these to go with your Lexicon and mono blocks

http://www.purenote.com/technology.htm

&quot;finished using a cryogenic vaporization process&quot;  you can tell these guys know their technology.


Just a FYI Logic7 is not in the LOTR credits, it's just the tiny marketing logo on the back of the DVD case.  I quickly thumbed through the rest of my DVD library of 150 disks or so and guess how many more I found?  0

Since they've been doing this (Logic7) for over 10 years that really shows how this technology has taken off!  

When you see a demo in a Hi-Fi shop on Lexicon gear, guess what your hearing, THX 7.1 unless you specifically ask for something else.  I wonder why that is?  Oh that's right you already know I'm sure!

My extensive knowledge of surround processing is based on my ears and common sense, but I now truly see the benefit of white papers and magazine adds, thanks.  I too hope some day blindly endorse a product I have never owned.

Oh ya figuring how to compress data, wow
http://flac.sourceforge.net/
you can see these guys are big audio engineering guns

I tried to be nice but your really not,  I myself am still interested DSP's and Logic7 is included, but I'm no &quot;Fan Boy&quot;.

Feel free to start this up in steam vent, I'm sure someone else might want a piece of you.

Rob</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>

Guest : <font color='#000000'>My extensive knowledge of surround processing is based on my ears and common sense, but I now truly see the benefit of white papers and magazine adds, thanks.  I too hope some day blindly endorse a product I have never owned.</font>

<font color='#0000FF'>This is what I have always truly felt and believed in. It is all in your ears and it is always the case of different strokes for different folks. Art, music, audio are all subject to human perceptions which can include sensory as well as sociological factors. No theory, pundits, books can define, dictate or impose this on us. In the end it is the ultimate victory of our ears, not some so-called self proclaimed expert prophesizing what is proper sound.

For DSP, it is always the pleasure principle, when I added the third sub in the back and set my rears to LARGE, I probably broke quite a few of the rigid rules of the so-called world of audio physics but boy did it feel good, and not only to me, but to my entire audience which includes my family members and friends. Now, coming to my house for movies is a regular feature among my friends and it is quite funny as there are some good local cinema halls here featuring DTS with good quality sound setup. It is the ?Pleasure Principle? which always wins in the end. Let us not forget, HT is all about ENTERTAINMENT, not about theories or rules. It is about feeling the movie and getting involved in it. Being there is what it is all about.

As a footnote, Granmjil, who is a member here recently, picked up a Yamaha NS-1000 which is considered to be a difficult speaker as per the load specs and he is running it nicely with his RX-992 receiver till he gets his 1ohm capable MX-1000 power amp. The NS-1000 has been seen to dip in the 1.5 to 2 ohm range on certain frequencies so it is a challenge for any amp or receiver. My brother uses his 100wpc RXV-800 with his Magnepans at quite high volume and Magnepans being planars, are rated at 4ohms nominal and are considered as difficult to drive speakers. So we see that there are quite a few well designed receivers in the market capable of driving low ohm, difficult speakers.

I also go with Gene?s observation of using high powered amps for HT. On my MX-1000U the VU hardly goes over 10 watts most of the times and even on dynamic scenes it hardly touches 150W so even a properly designed receiver should be able to do HT duty. Music is another story when you are listening to 2 channel music. I can understand the need for dynamics there and therefore the need for high power.

Just my observations on all the above conversations going on.

</font>

 

[Audioholics]

<font color='#008080'>Let's try to get back on topic and be nice... There's no reason for ANYBODY to insult anybody else... Go ahead and insult the gear - but not each other.... please.</font>