Denon AVR-3803 vs. Yahama Rx-V3000

[caseydill]

<font color='#000000'>I am trying to decide between these two receivers.  I have been trying to find reviews, but most of the ones I find are on “buy and review” pages.  But reviews on those pages usually seem to get hung up on silly issues such as remotes, or difficulty setting up.  I say who cares on either.  How many times are you going to set something up?  And if a remote sucks, there are plenty of really good universals out there.  What I am really looking for is a good review from someone who knows how to review fairly.

A local salesman I have been working with seems to like the Yamaha better (At lest with Klipsch brand speakers, which I have).  But he also really seems to be into “DSP”, which Yamaha has more of.  But I really don’t care about them; the only two I have every used are “mono movie” or “5 Channel Stereo with my last receiver (A Denon AVR2400).  

I did some A-B with the two at the store, and at times the Yamaha seemed a little cleaner at the high end, but is was very subtle.  In addition, I really question the quality of the “switching” paddle everything was going through.  The room was also setup for demonstrating many speakers and amps.  For all of these reasons, I really question if what I heard was from the different amps, or the switching panel, the room, or just my imagination.

One of the features I really like about the Denon is the video up conversion.  And my past experience with Denon has been good.  The specs listed by both seem similar.  The Yamaha is rated a little more powerful, but past experience with Car Audio, I know that power rating can be manipulated.

Is there anyone out there who has listened to both?  Does anyone know of a serous review of both?

Thanks!</font>

 

[Audioholics]

<font color='#008080'>I have the RX-V3000 and can honestly say that Yamaha DSP is nothing like Denon DSP (or any other consumer company for that matter.)

If you are a 'purist', then the Denon may beat out the Yamaha due to it having Pro Logic II which is very cool. If you want to experience some COOL theatrical stage sound during movies, then Yamaha's 70mm mode will crush the competition (IMHO) ESPECIALLY, if you can rustle up some extra speakers for the effects channels.

(What were you looking to pay for the 3000, by the way - I may sell you mine for less? - email me if you're interested.)</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'>I second what hawke as just said, there is absolutely no competition to Yamaha's Cinema DSP mode.

BTW: what are you intending to replace the RXV-3000 with hawke?</font>

 

[Eric]

<font color='#000000'>There’s another choice.

Denon lowered the price of the 4802 to $1,999. The 4802R is has dual Analog Devices SHARC DSP’s and is THX Ultra2 certified . You’ll lose the 3803’s video up conversion though. You should listen to the RX-V3000 though. From what I’ve read and been told it’s a fantastic unit.

</font>

 

[Audioholics]

<font color='#008080'>Probably the Z1. I still want the Yamaha effects channels and DSP.</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

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hawke : <font color='#000000'>Probably the Z1. I still want the Yamaha effects channels and DSP.</font>

<font color='#0000FF'>Good choice, however, there is a newer one coming up October and if I were you I should wait for that.</font>

 

[Audioholics]

<font color='#008080'>I don't believe the new model is going to be a flagship receiver (according to our sources), but I am curious about it as well.

We will most likely be reviewing it, regardless.</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

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hawke : <font color='#000000'>I don't believe the new model is going to be a flagship receiver (according to our sources), but I am curious about it as well.

We will most likely be reviewing it, regardless.</font>

<font color='#0000FF'>Hi hawke,

According to my sources in Singapore, it is going to be a high powered version with a newly developed DSP chip. Also, Yamaha is going to start offering class A HCA version 260x7 amplifiers.

Let us keep our fingers crossed.</font>

 

[Khellandros66]

<font color='#000000'>where can i see info on the new Yamaha stuff?</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'>Sorry Bob,

No concrete info, it is based on my usual chit chat with Yamaha Singapore. The other sad rumor is that Yamaha might be getting out of home audio business for good, concentrating only on pro audio. I know this rumor is going to make lots of Yamahahaters exceptionaly happy.</font>

 

[caseydill]

<font color='#000000'>Looks like I goofed a little in my original post. &nbsp;I meant to compare the Yamaha RX-V3300 with the Denon AVR-3803. &nbsp;(Is there much difference between the RX-V3000 and RX-V3300?) &nbsp;

I noticed some comments about the DSP. &nbsp;I am not (at least yet) really into DSP. &nbsp; But, I have to admit that up to now; the only DSP I had was “Analog” in my Denon AVR-2400. &nbsp;Do the new “Digital” modes really work? &nbsp;And how well do they work if you don’t have the room to setup all the speakers like the manufacture wants? &nbsp;Also, I have really fallen in love with SACD. &nbsp;I cannot believe the difference SACD has over CD. &nbsp;And this was with a 5 year old pre-digital era amp with 5 year old “mid level” speakers. &nbsp;And as far as I know, you cannot use DSP with external in with either of these amps. &nbsp;(And even if you did, the first thing that would happen is at best a 192Khs/24bit DAC “down” conversion, which would eliminate the advantages of SACD.) &nbsp;And as far as DTS or Dolby Digital, wouldn’t these DSP modes ruin the original “mastering” surround fields?

Thanks…</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Yamahaluver;


I appreciate your enthusiasm, but it is doubtful that Yamaha will ever offer a 260 watt x 7 receiver.  This would require over a 2kVA transformer and multiple BJTs on HUGE heatsinks which will not fit in a receiver unless it is sigificantly larger than the ones produced today.  Perhaps that figure is dynamic power and not true RMS.

As for their Class A amp, Yamaha does NOT have a true class A amp at full rated power.  Their amp is based on a sliding bias which is not new to the industry.  Designing a Class A amp beyond 100 watts rms doesn't make any sense as it would be way too large, to inefficient, and dissipate too much heat.  Even the old Arag0n Palladiums (one of the best amps ever designed IMO) switches from Class A to Class AB once power exceeds 100watts rms (note that amp has 24 power bjts and two (2) 2KVA transformers for one channel!) .  

I wouldn't get too hung up on Class A as many vendors, including Yamaha, have done a great job with sliding bias schemes to eliminate crossover distortion typical of Class B designs. &nbsp;It is more likely that their replacement to the RX-Z1 would have a 20-30% power increase (if at all) typical of all of their past flagship predecessors.</font>

 

[Khellandros66]

<font color='#000000'>Why? &nbsp;I thought that they were doing good. &nbsp;That sux horribly. &nbsp;Who will we go to then? Sony and Denon are the only two other companies that can compete quality-wise. &nbsp;(I hate Onkyo) Harman Kardon ain't much as far as DSP goes.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Harman Kardon ain't much as far as DSP goes</td></tr></table>
Not quite sure I'm following you on that one, can you be a little more specific?

Harmon International is a fairly large company that owns; Mark Levinson, Madrigal now rolled into Levinson, Proceed (AVP prepros), Lexicon (professional and consumer), Harmon Kardon, JBL, and the Revel speaker line.

HK's top of the line models includes versions of Lexicon's Logic7 DSP modes (7.1 channels), which I expect will filter down to the lower models as time goes by.</font>

 

[Guest]

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Bruce : <font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Harman Kardon ain't much as far as DSP goes

Not quite sure I'm following you on that one, can you be a little more specific?

Harmon International is a fairly large company that owns; Mark Levinson, Madrigal now rolled into Levinson, Proceed (AVP prepros), Lexicon (professional and consumer), Harmon Kardon, JBL, and the Revel speaker line.

HK's top of the line models includes versions of Lexicon's Logic7 DSP modes (7.1 channels), which I expect will filter down to the lower models as time goes by.</font></td></tr></table>
<font color='#000000'>Well I don't really know about Logic 7 being all the rage with everyone and anyone in DSP land. &nbsp;There is not a lot of opinion posted on it ( I know I've looked).

I would say HK gear is certianly not &quot;Hi-Fi&quot;, not the worst, but not the best either (value wise and perfomance wise). &nbsp;If you check out HK's site you'll see there really is no advanced processing built into the HK units like the Lexicon, and the bulk of Lexicons power is coming from the same processors all high (and mid) end manufactures use. &nbsp;It really is apples and oranges, at least that is what I can gather from others.

The lexicon did sound good, but did it really sound much better than the other processors I heard, no not really.

Of note, when looking into used MC-1's I've found many of the sub $2000 units do not have the 7.1 hardware upgrades.</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'>Hi Gene,

The Yamaha amps were rated to deliver full class A power according to a wireless world magazine test in the eighties. As per the HCA design, it isnt just a typical sliding bias design used by Pioneer and Technics, it is far removed from the conventional sliding bias design. Wouldnt wanna get too technical but if I recall correctly, there was a unique method of using a controller amp in the input circuit. I will try dig up the magazine and give you more details, not that it really does matter as they sound fantastic till today. As for 2Kva transformer, the current MX-1 has 1.5Kva transformers so 2Kva isnt that far off. Yamaha did make a $12000 3.5Kva MX-10000 monster so when it comes to outlandish things, Yamaha has been there, done that.

Bob,

Your fears on Yamaha are exactly what I am going through as I would be orphaned. If they are to get out of the home audio business, I would be left with very few choices. My options would then be limited to using Accuphase gear and leave HT for good. I like Marantz but hate their DSP modes.

</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>I just wish to dispel any rumors that Yamaha is exiting the home audio business. That is absolutely false. We did exit the computer peripheral market in January 2003...as a matter of fact, we are actually building additional factories to handle the worldwide increase in demand for our product.
If you have any questions, feel free to reach me at:
bbernstein@yamaha.com. I will answer any questions you may have about product, technology, etc. I cannot answer questions about future products...but Audioholics will be one of the first places to check out when information breaks...

Regards,
Bruce Bernstein
Marketing Service Manager
Yamaha Electronics Corp, USA</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'>Best assurance you have given to me Bruce and thanks a lot for that.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">. . .and the bulk of Lexicons power is coming from the same processors all high (and mid) end manufactures use.   </td></tr></table>
True, most everyone (except Yamaha) uses industry standard DSP (Digital Signal Processing) chips from a handful of vendors.  Lexicon's power is actually not coming from these chips, but instead from their own software.

The key to the sophistication is the software code that runs on the DSP processor.  Here is where you separate the industry leaders from the followers.  Implementing a prepro or receiver with a DSP chip and the standard DD/DTS firmware code supplied by the DSP vendor (Motorola, Cirrus, Analog Devices) is common.

Lexicon and Meridian are leaders in the prepro field because they have vast experience writing their own core code in-house.  I'm talking about core operational code and not DD/DTS variables that can be manipulated for the &quot;DSP modes&quot; offered by many other manufacturers of prepros and receivers.

There is quite simply a vast level of difference between the software development for a prepro or receiver from most manufacturers and that from a Lexicon or Meridian. &nbsp;The improved surround sound quality, on a a Lexicon or Meridian, will definately be audible on a well setup system.</font>

 

[Guest]

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Bruce : <font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">. . .and the bulk of Lexicons power is coming from the same processors all high (and mid) end manufactures use. &nbsp;

There is quite simply a vast level of difference between the software development for a prepro or receiver from most manufacturers and that from a Lexicon or Meridian. &nbsp;The improved surround sound quality, on a a Lexicon or Meridian, will definately be audible on a well setup system.</font></td></tr></table>
<font color='#000000'>ahh Bruce, &nbsp;I think the marketing gods have you in their grasp it this case. &nbsp;Which is why you &quot;won't buy a receiver&quot;.

I would have more faith in Sony making the claims your eluding to than Lexicon or Meridian.

Meridian and Lexicon implement standards they don't create them. &nbsp;They do the bleeding edge stuff and some other value adds in, but it's not &quot;from the ground up&quot;. &nbsp;That's why you do not see these companies listed in movie credits or serving a long line of anxious licencees.

It's like watching PC games developers licence a 3D engine from ID software and then say &quot;We had to re-work it from the ground up&quot;. &nbsp;Well did they really rebuid a whole engine? &nbsp;No, that's why they had to licence it in the first place. &nbsp;It just sounds good to say it.

You could look at like Windows 95 vs Windows 98, if Microsoft had their way you would be lead to believe it was &quot;Total rework of the kernel into 32 bit code&quot;. &nbsp;Which it was not.

I'm not saying it's bad stuff, I am question the value tho.

Rob</font>