Denon AVR-1611 blowing PSB Alpha Series (LR1/CLR1) Speakers

[Twinbird]

I do not have parties often and I won't be pushing the volume that high again. I have a small room (about 8m x 3.5m) and just want something that sounds nice (something that will fill the room) but won't get blown if for example I have some friends over and listen to the music a little louder. I do not need loud "party" speakers (maybe one day, not now ). My budget is $1500 (max) and I'm looking for some good, mid-range (7.1 surround sound) AMP / receiver and speakers. I also want a good subwoofer, I like it when I can feel the bass .

The store I go to has brands such as B&W, Rotel, Denon, PSB, Onkyo and Definitive Technology (there are also others but I'm not sure if they make good speakers / receivers).

Would the Denon AVR-1911 with the Definitive Technology ProCinema 800 be a good choice (but with the ProSub 1000)? I like this package.

I may also keep my current PSBs but switch to a better sub-woofer and receiver. Can you guys suggest a receiver that will go well with my PSBs and a good sub I can get?

Thanks.

 

[markw]

That depends on what you consider "a little louder"

The subwoofer isn't your problem. The centers and satellites are.

"A little louder" would have not driven your amp into severe clipping and blown your speakers. A lot louder would have.

Generally, the solution to moving lots of air at high volume levels is having a larger driver. The 800's seem a little larger, but the same caveats still apply.

 

[Twinbird]

I know the subwoofer isn't a problem but I would still like a bigger sub .

If I get a much more powerful amp, I would be able to have the volume higher without fear of going into clipping and damaging my speakers, right? The speakers are rated at 80W, but if I have 7 of them hooked up to my Denon, there is no way it will supply them with 80W each, so if I higher the volume it will drive my amp into clipping (as it tries to supply more power than it can). But with the same speakers and a more powerful amp, I can have the volume a little higher without the clipping. Is this correct?

Will the Denon AVR-1911 be good enough for the DefTech speakers?

 

[markw]

No matter how much power you pump into them, small drivers can only move so much air.

Perhaps someone else can explain this concept better than I can. In the meantime, re-read this thread from the beginning and try to concentrate on the problem at hand.

 

[PENG]

[

QUOTE=3db;782445]PENG.

Regardless of cost, NAD meets or exceeds its all channels driven test at full bandwidth. Thats all I'm saying. When NAD says 7x??? watts per channel, it will meet this. The others won't even though they advertise 7x???. I really don't care about 2 channel power tests and who is more dynamic because this isn't what is being compared or advertised. So from an honest watt terminology, NAD isn't hiding anything.

If you limit the topic to the advertised numbers then I have no doubt NAD is honest about their power rating. They do cost more in North America on per real watt output but you already know that I agree most people (including myself) generally do not, and should not base their purchase on cost per watt only.

There are AVR products that are in fact misleading in the way they advertise their power outputs in regard to 2 channel vs ACD. However, I would be reluctant to say Denon and Marantz of doing that sort of thing though. If you read their official website (Denon for example), they typically say something like this:


"........delivers 140 watts of power to each of the nine channels." instead of 140W X 9, that, I agree it could be a little misleading though not exactly lying.

http://www.denon.ca/ca/Product/Pages/ProductLanding.aspx?CatId=3d9614d1-8000-4106-ab91-8192242cab83&SubId=40b5820d-83c2-4e93-9909-60aae60e0bdd

Typically a Denon or Marantz that advertise 140W for each channel, they would yield about 100 to 120W ( or at least in 5 channel driven) ACD in one of those HTM, HCC, S&V lab measurements.

Anyway, NAD is a premium product, but the current HK line up is a different story. Yes their advertised outputs are still honest relative to others, but where they could mislead people is in their way of specifying their power consumption. If you spend time going through their spec sheets and manual you will see inconsistencies in their specified weight and power consumption. They seem to talk about "maximum" power consumption more often now when most other makes provide just power consumption.

I posted facts and figures for some Yamaha models, I think the RX-V1800 is one of those that provide both maximum PS and just PS and the differences are huge, easily 2:1. Most power EE should know that power transformers, large or small, generally has very good overload capacity. You can overload them to say 120% all day long but if you do you will lose on longevity. In many cases you could overload them for 200% or even more on very short duration basis. So if you see a HK products that has a "maximum" power consumption of 1000W, it is probably at 200% overload. Think about it, to consume say 1100W, even with a high power factor of between 0.85 to 0.9, the transformer size would be at least 1200 VA. That is the kind of transformer found in a 66 lbs XPA-5 power amplifier. I really doubt any current HK AVR (except for the flag ship model) has a transformer rated anywhere near 800VA let along 1200VA. If I remember right you are an EE yourself so I doubt you would disagree with me on such basic electrical stuff.


Also, unlike NAD who has more than one model in their line up that offers >100WPC ACD. With HK, typically only their current flag ship model would offer that kind of power. Long time ago HK made great power amplifiers but nowadays I would not compare them with NAD's at all. I did feel compel to say something, every time I see how people could be led to believe every HK watt is equivalent 2 Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo watt. Anyway, if I fail to make myself clear on this I probably never will, so this is the last time I voice my opinion on this topic.

 

[PENG]

Something still isn't right. Take a look at the manual for the 2600. It says the weight is 44lbs and power consumption 1,405W That can't be right for a receiver at this price point. So it begs the question, is the website or manual correct for their 2010 receivers?

http://www.harmankardon.com/resources/Brands/harmankardon/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/AVR_2600_Owners_Manual_Eng.pdf

That 1405W is "maximum" 7 channels driven, certainly not a continuous rating. I have only seen a few Yamaha models that provide the "maximum" consumption numbers but at least Yamaha provides both numbers, namely just power consumption and maximum consumption (also >1000W). Not only that, Yamaha also provides the THD for the maximum power consumption, don't quote me but I think it is 10%. At 1405W that HK would be driven to around 200% or higher overload condition by my estimate.

 

[PENG]

I know the subwoofer isn't a problem but I would still like a bigger sub .

If I get a much more powerful amp, I would be able to have the volume higher without fear of going into clipping and damaging my speakers, right? The speakers are rated at 80W, but if I have 7 of them hooked up to my Denon, there is no way it will supply them with 80W each, so if I higher the volume it will drive my amp into clipping (as it tries to supply more power than it can). But with the same speakers and a more powerful amp, I can have the volume a little higher without the clipping. Is this correct?

Will the Denon AVR-1911 be good enough for the DefTech speakers?

OKay let me try again. If you get a much more powerful amp, such as a 140W Denon or Onkyo AVR, it could provide your speaker with 80W without clipping. The AVR can also provide your speaker with 140W or higher if the source program material has very little information for the surround channels.

In that case your L,R, or C channels could receive more power than your little speakers can handle if you crank the AVR up to and pass the 0 dB position. The amp may not go into clipping territory but it will still blow your speakers, only this time it blows them by overloading them with cleaner power. Conversely, if your source program material sends equal power to all 7 speakers, e.g. you use 7 Ch stereo mode, then a 140WPC AVR could still go into clipping territory if you crank the volume up too high because the AVR may not have enough power to push 80W into each of the 7 channels continuously. In that case if you crank the volume right up you can again blow the speaker due to the AVR clipping.

If you need your room to be filled with high SPL (loud) sound you need bigger and more efficient speakers, and avoid 4 ohm rated speakers. I suggest you take a look of the Polk Audio RTAi series tower speakers. They can play loud, sound good, and can take a lot of power. If good sound quality is not important to you then, as others have told you already, Cerwin Vega is your ticket.

 

[3db]

[

If you limit the topic to the advertised numbers then I have no doubt NAD is honest about their power rating. They do cost more in North America on per real watt output but you already know that I agree most people (including myself) generally do not, and should not base their purchase on cost per watt only.

There are AVR products that are in fact misleading in the way they advertise their power outputs in regard to 2 channel vs ACD. However, I would be reluctant to say Denon and Marantz of doing that sort of thing though. If you read their official website (Denon for example), they typically say something like this:


"........delivers 140 watts of power to each of the nine channels." instead of 140W X 9, that, I agree it could be a little misleading though not exactly lying.

http://www.denon.ca/ca/Product/Pages/ProductLanding.aspx?CatId=3d9614d1-8000-4106-ab91-8192242cab83&SubId=40b5820d-83c2-4e93-9909-60aae60e0bdd

Typically a Denon or Marantz that advertise 140W for each channel, they would yield about 100 to 120W ( or at least in 5 channel driven) ACD in one of those HTM, HCC, S&V lab measurements.

Anyway, NAD is a premium product, but the current HK line up is a different story. Yes their advertised outputs are still honest relative to others, but where they could mislead people is in their way of specifying their power consumption. If you spend time going through their spec sheets and manual you will see inconsistencies in their specified weight and power consumption. They seem to talk about "maximum" power consumption more often now when most other makes provide just power consumption.

I posted facts and figures for some Yamaha models, I think the RX-V1800 is one of those that provide both maximum PS and just PS and the differences are huge, easily 2:1. Most power EE should know that power transformers, large or small, generally has very good overload capacity. You can overload them to say 120% all day long but if you do you will lose on longevity. In many cases you could overload them for 200% or even more on very short duration basis. So if you see a HK products that has a "maximum" power consumption of 1000W, it is probably at 200% overload. Think about it, to consume say 1100W, even with a high power factor of between 0.85 to 0.9, the transformer size would be at least 1200 VA. That is the kind of transformer found in a 66 lbs XPA-5 power amplifier. I really doubt any current HK AVR (except for the flag ship model) has a transformer rated anywhere near 800VA let along 1200VA. If I remember right you are an EE yourself so I doubt you would disagree with me on such basic electrical stuff.


Also, unlike NAD who has more than one model in their line up that offers >100WPC ACD. With HK, typically only their current flag ship model would offer that kind of power. Long time ago HK made great power amplifiers but nowadays I would not compare them with NAD's at all. I did feel compel to say something, every time I see how people could be led to believe every HK watt is equivalent 2 Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo watt. Anyway, if I fail to make myself clear on this I probably never will, so this is the last time I voice my opinion on this topic.

I agree with everything you said above.

 

[sharkman]

For 1500 bucks you would be best served going to a big box store. Their higher volume will give you more bang for buck at that price point. I would suggest getting 5.1 and adding 2 speakers next year and spend 500 max for a receiver.

For speakers, make sure they are 8 ohms, not 6 or 4 compatible, this is probably what drove your receiver into clipping, as all entry level receivers will have trouble at higher volumes. Also, more efficient speakers is the easiest way to get more volume, 91 db sensitivity or above would help you.

One other budget conscious option is to buy online, but make sure things are easily returnable. For instance, the Onkyo 608 is currently 376 on Amazon.

Edit: In reviewing your latest post, you are simply not going to get party level volume out of those speakers. They are too small and too inefficient. But you've had them replaced now, and it would be a waste to simply buy new. Buying a sub and receiver are a decent solution. Again, I am going to suggest online for the sub. HSU subs offer a lot of bang for buck and at you could get their VTF-2 MK 3 to your door for 610. A store wouldn't have anything that could match it for 7-800.

With the Onkyo 608 you would only have to spend 1000 total or so. But do not run the receiver at above 0 ever! It's too much of a strain with 4 ohm speakers. I'd be careful and not go above -8 or so as a general rule of thumb. When the music starts to sound harsh is when you are straining your system. Down the road you could look at better speakers if you still want more volume. Good luck!

 

[Twinbird]

Thanks for the help guys .

Below is what I will buy (next week):

• Denon AVR3310CI
• PSB Alpha B1 (x2)
• PSB Alpha C1
• PSB SubSeries 5i

This will cost me about $2,200. I can bring back my current set-up and pay the difference. Please let me know if there is something seriously wrong with the above.

 

[jostenmeat]

Thanks for the help guys .

Below is what I will buy (next week):

• Denon AVR3310CI
• PSB Alpha B1 (x2)
• PSB Alpha C1
• PSB SubSeries 5i

This will cost me about $2,200. I can bring back my current set-up and pay the difference. Please let me know if there is something seriously wrong with the above.

Can you break down your prices on each component?

I bet that a 4310 is only $100 more than the 3310. I recently learned the 4310 is built in Japan, which is no longer the case for even hi end current Denons.

I was in the middle of selling PSB T55s and C60 to someone here, but I believe that will likely fall through, because he just bought a pair of speakers. The problem is you will have to wait at least a month for the T55s, if not two months. The C60 is immediately available. I intend to build 3 new speakers, my first DIY speakers. I need to wait until next month to even order the drivers, etc ($$$ issue).

If you are interested, PM me. I bet my price will be very close to your quotes. IMO, the Images are a BIG step up from Alphas, and I'm not just saying that because I want to sell them. I've been saying that many times over the years on more than one forum. And I actually own a pair of B1s. (I wish I didn't replace B25s which I could have just drilled into; I bought the B1s just for ease of ceiling mounting.)

The Images, in my subjective impression, have very good power handling for "audiophile" speakers at this budget.

 

[PENG]

Thanks for the help guys .

Below is what I will buy (next week):

• Denon AVR3310CI
• PSB Alpha B1 (x2)
• PSB Alpha C1
• PSB SubSeries 5i

This will cost me about $2,200. I can bring back my current set-up and pay the difference. Please let me know if there is something seriously wrong with the above.

Can you bite the bullet, do it right and get the PSB tower speakers? The B1 is much bigger than your previous ones but I have the feeling they still won't be loud enough for you. The 3311 allows you to add an external amp so that is good, but if you don't need a 3D capable AVR, the 3310 may be even the 4310 are also viable options.

 

[markw]

Poke around here for speakers (and other stuff). They occasionally have great sales and are wonderful to deal with. You can sort their items by price so you can easily see what's in your budget or not.

 

[sharkman]

I am probably old school, but I prefer to keep 4 ohm speakers away from receivers altogether since I like to occasionally run my gear at high levels. But if the place you are dealing with is willing to take back the old gear and recommend this set up, since they obviously stand behind their products, I would think it okay.

That being said I would still suggest you not run the receiver at levels above 0 and also listen for harsh sounds to prevent damage. All speakers have the point past which they will be overdriven, just find what your level is and avoid it.

You will be happy with the new gear for years to come.

 

[3db]

Thanks for the help guys .

Below is what I will buy (next week):

• Denon AVR3310CI
• PSB Alpha B1 (x2)
• PSB Alpha C1
• PSB SubSeries 5i

This will cost me about $2,200. I can bring back my current set-up and pay the difference. Please let me know if there is something seriously wrong with the above.

What is you want to do with the new system. Is it to fill a room with sound or is it to fill many rooms with sound using just this one setup in the one lcoation of the house? If its the latter, you will end up over driving the speakers causing them to "pop" or move past their excursion limit and you'll be back to square 1.

If the purchase is for just filling one room, tell us the dimensions of the room. Like PENG said, the B1s are bigger with more power handling but if the room is too big, you may end up over driving them as well. But like I said, that depends on the room size. You need to tell us the dimensions of the room.

 

[sharkman]

This might help, in post 41, Twinbird said this:

I do not have parties often and I won't be pushing the volume that high again. I have a small room (about 8m x 3.5m) and just want something that sounds nice (something that will fill the room) but won't get blown if for example I have some friends over and listen to the music a little louder. I do not need loud "party" speakers

 

[Twinbird]

3db, I will be using this in one room (no more). The size of the room is about 3.5x8m as sharkman pointed out (not that big).

markw, thanks for the link, but I will be getting my home theater from a local store (Steve's TV). I bought my TV from there (54" Panasonic ); they have great service and fair prices.

PENG, I won't be biting the bullet . The T1s are much more expensive and I think the B1s will be good enough for me . I can return them within 30 days if I don't like them anyways. I won't need the 3D capabilities, but what does adding an extra amp do? I can hook up two Denons or is this something else? Can I add an extra amp with the 3310?

jostenmeat, the prices are below:

• Denon AVR3310CI
  $899.95
  
  
• PSB Alpha B1
  $184.95
  
  
• PSB Alpha C1
  $200.00
  
  
• PSB SubSeries 5i
  $450.00
  
  +13% HST

 

[PENG]

PENG, I won't be biting the bullet . The T1s are much more expensive and I think the B1s will be good enough for me . I can return them within 30 days if I don't like them anyways. I won't need the 3D capabilities, but what does adding an extra amp do? I can hook up two Denons or is this something else? Can I add an extra amp with the 3310?

If like you said you wouldn't be using them for parties again then they may be okay. Adding an external amplifier will allow you to use 4-ohm and larger speakers including those that are not very sensitive. The 3310 does have 7.2 preouts that allows you to add external amplifier(s). The B1 in a typical room can produce 91 dB/W/meter so they are not bad. Still, make sure you crossover the Alphas at around 90 to 100 Hz to take some load off the 3310 and those mini speakers. Futureshop.ca now has the PSW111 at $129.99, regularly listed for $384.99 and boxing say sales price was $144.99. You may want to pick one up to help out the PSB sub just because of the great price.

Also, try keeping the 3310 volume lower than -10 just to be safe. Try that first and let us know how the system sound.

By the way $450 for that sub sounds quite high. I know you get great service from your dealer but you may consider at least shop around for better price for that sub or other subs. Try 2001 Audio Video and Future Shop, places where you won't be paying their asking price.

 

[Twinbird]

Thanks for the info PENG. I will consider buying a different sub from somewhere else. How much do you think that sub is worth? I can't find the PSB SubSeries 5i for any cheaper than $450 but I did find some others (listed below).

Velodyne 400 Watt 12" Subwoofer (VDR12)
$299.99

Cerwin Vega 10" Active Subwoofer CMX10S
$399.99

Vector Research 12" Powered Subwoofer BASS12
$199.99

This one will be more than $450 (will be about $500 with taxes) but is it better than the 5i? Will it be well worth it?
Polk Audio 12" Powered Subwoofer (PSW125) - Black
$439.99

If there is a better sub than the 5i for $450 or less (CAD, after 13% HST) please let me know.

Thanks!

 

[3db]

Thanks for the info PENG. I will consider buying a different sub from somewhere else. How much do you think that sub is worth? I can't find the PSB SubSeries 5i for any cheaper than $450 but I did find some others (listed below).

Velodyne 400 Watt 12" Subwoofer (VDR12)
$299.99

Cerwin Vega 10" Active Subwoofer CMX10S
$399.99

Vector Research 12" Powered Subwoofer BASS12
$199.99

This one will be more than $450 (will be about $500 with taxes) but is it better than the 5i? Will it be well worth it?
Polk Audio 12" Powered Subwoofer (PSW125) - Black
$439.99

If there is a better sub than the 5i for $450 or less (CAD, after 13% HST) please let me know.

Thanks!

I have the older Subsonic 5 and its a good sub. The 5i is even better. What makes PSB subs so nice is that they play relatively flat across their spectrum, more so than any of the others you have listed. This flat response makes it much easier to integrate it with your speakers and the room. But being a sub with a 10" woofer, it may not play as deep as the 12 subs. You'll have to experiment.

You'll be OK with the Denon and your PSBs in that room. Like PENG suggested, cross them over at 90 to a 100Hz to save your speakers from the bass and to lighten the load on the Denon. With a senstivity of 91db in room, you won't have to crank them very much to achieve loud playing levels. The Denon model you are now considering is much more powerful from the 1611. It has a bigger more stout power supply so you won't be running into to trouble as quickly as you did with teh 1611. However, I still sugget you err on the side of caution and be careful with the volume.