Denon 4810 with Emotiva

[TheFactor]

Not really Mr. Factor, I actually do believe it is good to have more than enough power on hand but I don't believe you need to spend a fortune on high end amps. My lengthy response was meant to prepare you for the unpredicable outcome, not knowing your specific situations. Even placebo effect is quite real and it can affect each individual to different extent. It is true that part of it is due to the fact that I spent a lot of money on amps (relative to my income) so I felt I have no right to tell others not to. You would be correct though if you guessed that I may have trouble hearing differences between my AVR and amps. The truth is, in my own system, the source discs/vinyl albums, players, and speakers have much greater effect on SQ than my amps.

By the way I made a typo in the first sentence of the last paragraph in my last post. I meant 300WX3, not X2.

Thanks I knew what you meant though as far as the typo but the xpa-3 is only 200 watts per channel 8ohms and 300 4ohms and my speakers are 8ohm so im assuming thats what I have to run Do you still think its ok under those conditions ? If so maybe I will get the emo since it should satisfy my needs to add to my audio gear instead of another sub, that would be close to double and up of the price of the emo and my pb13 does a great job I'd just be very greedy

 

[PENG]

Thanks I knew what you meant though as far as the typo but the xpa-3 is only 200 watts per channel 8ohms and 300 4ohms and my speakers are 8ohm so im assuming thats what I have to run Do you still think its ok under those conditions ? If so maybe I will get the emo since it should satisfy my needs to add to my audio gear instead of another sub, that would be close to double and up of the price of the emo and my pb13 does a great job I'd just be very greedy

Absolutely, if and when your speakers dip down to 4 ohms, they would appreciate that 300W availability. Again they may never need those extra watts but they are there if needed.

I do not know your room acoustic conditions but assuming it is not larger than say 6000 cu.ft. you AVR should have enough juice for the surround channels except for may be a few SACD, BR, DVD movies that demand full duty from the surround channels. I have fair size collection and I do not have a single SACD, BR, HDDVD, DVD that send much info to the surrounds. I really wish they do, may be some day. That would give me the excuse I need for a major upgrade.

 

[TheFactor]

Absolutely, if and when your speakers dip down to 4 ohms, they would appreciate that 300W availability. Again they may never need those extra watts but they are there if needed.

I do not know your room acoustic conditions but assuming it is not larger than say 6000 cu.ft. you AVR should have enough juice for the surround channels except for may be a few SACD, BR, DVD movies that demand full duty from the surround channels. I have fair size collection and I do not have a single SACD, BR, HDDVD, DVD that send much info to the surrounds. I really wish they do, may be some day. That would give me the excuse I need for a major upgrade.

Ok so I would still keep my AVR at the 8ohms setting but what your saying if and when they "Speakers" dipped into 4 ohm the power would be there at 300 the 4ohm rating . Ok now I understand I say upgrade anyway that way you'll be ready for that extra info to your surrounds j/k I know the student nevers gives advice to the teacher at least advice thats any good

 

[Josuah]

Depending on your particular room reinforcement effect it could easily reduce your estimated drop by a few dB so if you need 300W others may only need 150W or less.

Yes. I prefer to have zero constructive/destructive interference due to the room since that means delayed sound (i.e. smeared sound) but that's not practical. My room is very large and opens to the rest of the house. It is also somewhat nicely treated.

I would worry more about the phase angles and impedance dips.

Certainly. There are lots of aspects to an amplifier's capabilities past raw power output. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

As to waveforms, any waveforms can be broken down into harmonics of sine waves. I don't know how familiar you are with Fourier analysis. Regardless, your statement "wherea music or movies .....much more energy for the same peak........." does not make sense may be you can show the math that supports the claim.

Yes, I've done Fourier analysis and understand how any waveform is a sum of sine waves. I meant much more energy for the same peak voltage levels.

Let's say at -0dB your preamp outputs a signal that results in 100W RMS from your amp. If you keep your preamp at -0dB but feed it some crazy active music (or white noise), the peak voltage of your preamp output signal is still the same, but the V RMS is now higher. Correspondingly the W RMS resulting in the amp is also higher.

 

[PENG]

Yes. I prefer to have zero constructive/destructive interference due to the room since that means delayed sound (i.e. smeared sound) but that's not practical. My room is very large and opens to the rest of the house. It is also somewhat nicely treated.



Certainly. There are lots of aspects to an amplifier's capabilities past raw power output. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.



Yes, I've done Fourier analysis and understand how any waveform is a sum of sine waves. I meant much more energy for the same peak voltage levels.

Let's say at -0dB your preamp outputs a signal that results in 100W RMS from your amp. If you keep your preamp at -0dB but feed it some crazy active music (or white noise), the peak voltage of your preamp output signal is still the same, but the V RMS is now higher. Correspondingly the W RMS resulting in the amp is also higher.

I am not so sure if you are right. My experiments (I typically use jazz and classical music CDs) seem to show the opposite is true. That is, with music signal the mean power is lower for the same peaks. That could be different if you use highly compressed material. Since you have a large and open room I can see why you can benefit from 300WPC or more. My room is relatively small and I know for a fact my system's peak demand would never exceed 100 WPC but I still feel good about having 300WPC on hand.

 

[JJMP50]

Update

Just a quick update...The UPA5 is all hooked up and it's a keeper. I'll have a better report after this wintery weekend but my initial impressions:

Broadcast TV prologic - not a lot of difference
Broadcast TV DD - some improvement depending on show
Stereo music - significant improvement
Multi-channel music - Vast Improvement
DVD - TBD (haven't had the chance)
BlueRay - NA (don't have one)

I know my JBL Studio L's are concidered here as a midline system although I've been pleased but the Emo has really brought them to life. Reviews of them have stated that they are very "bright" and on some selections with a lot of high frequence clutter (probably due to the horn tweeters) they did have some issues, but now its a lot more detailed. Hope I'm making sense.

Also my normal listening volume use to be -36 to -32db. Now it's more like -40 to -35.

On the down side, I thought my wife would never notice any differences. I was wrong. She came home from work yesterday and I was listening to streaming music from my Roku Soundbridge. She thought it was too loud and way to much in her face. Maybe she was just in a bad mood.

 

[jeanseb]

Just a quick update...The UPA5 is all hooked up and it's a keeper. I'll have a better report after this wintery weekend but my initial impressions:

Broadcast TV prologic - not a lot of difference
Broadcast TV DD - some improvement depending on show
Stereo music - significant improvement
Multi-channel music - Vast Improvement
DVD - TBD (haven't had the chance)
BlueRay - NA (don't have one)

I know my JBL Studio L's are concidered here as a midline system although I've been pleased but the Emo has really brought them to life. Reviews of them have stated that they are very "bright" and on some selections with a lot of high frequence clutter (probably due to the horn tweeters) they did have some issues, but now its a lot more detailed. Hope I'm making sense.

Also my normal listening volume use to be -36 to -32db. Now it's more like -40 to -35.

On the down side, I thought my wife would never notice any differences. I was wrong. She came home from work yesterday and I was listening to streaming music from my Roku Soundbridge. She thought it was too loud and way to much in her face. Maybe she was just in a bad mood.

Good to know! Congrats on your Emo

I am considering pulling the trigger on a UPA-5 or XPA-5 soon. I just haven't decided yet which one to go with. Vincent from Emo told me that the UPA-5 should be plenty to power my Woodies, but at that point, I am willing to pay the extra bucks and don't look back.

Any thought on that?

 

[JJMP50]

I was torn between the UPA5 and the XPA3. With the free shipping in Jan the price difference was only $25. I called Emo and spoke to Lonnie. With my rather efficient speakers (90db) he said the UPA should be more that enough and I wouldn't have to worry about adjusting my surround settings to match. He said that he uses a UPA7 at home and its plenty. After using it for a couple of days I agree.

 

[jeanseb]

I was torn between the UPA5 and the XPA3. With the free shipping in Jan the price difference was only $25. I called Emo and spoke to Lonnie. With my rather efficient speakers (90db) he said the UPA should be more that enough and I wouldn't have to worry about adjusting my surround settings to match. He said that he uses a UPA7 at home and its plenty. After using it for a couple of days I agree.

Good!

Let's say that your UPA-5 delivers 100% of power/quality sound. How would you rate your Yammy compared to that?

Thanks

 

[j_garcia]

I would say that is likely partially the true but no one at Denon would admit it.

Agree, the 5805 or even the lesser 5308 MAY be ONE of the best ever made but definitely not the 4810.

Yes, I neglected to mention that the 58xx receivers are quite a bit more substantial than the 48xx. The 53xx seemed like an unnecessary step between the 48xx and 58xx.

Agree, but then you are stating the obvious, and that applies to you as well as anyone else.

Absolutely.

Congrats on the amp JJMP50

 

[TheFactor]

Just a quick update...The UPA5 is all hooked up and it's a keeper. I'll have a better report after this wintery weekend but my initial impressions:

Broadcast TV prologic - not a lot of difference
Broadcast TV DD - some improvement depending on show
Stereo music - significant improvement
Multi-channel music - Vast Improvement
DVD - TBD (haven't had the chance)
BlueRay - NA (don't have one)

I know my JBL Studio L's are concidered here as a midline system although I've been pleased but the Emo has really brought them to life. Reviews of them have stated that they are very "bright" and on some selections with a lot of high frequence clutter (probably due to the horn tweeters) they did have some issues, but now its a lot more detailed. Hope I'm making sense.

Also my normal listening volume use to be -36 to -32db. Now it's more like -40 to -35.

On the down side, I thought my wife would never notice any differences. I was wrong. She came home from work yesterday and I was listening to streaming music from my Roku Soundbridge. She thought it was too loud and way to much in her face. Maybe she was just in a bad mood.

Good news and glad your happy with your Emo !

 

[Josuah]

I am not so sure if you are right. My experiments (I typically use jazz and classical music CDs) seem to show the opposite is true. That is, with music signal the mean power is lower for the same peaks.

Yeah. Over the duration what you're saying is likely true. There are silent passages and especially for jazz and classical the music does not contain a lot of data at 0dBFS. Which is why I referred to "busy" music and used white noise as the extreme example.

I'm picturing music passages that kind of look like a square wave on an oscilloscope.... Although I'm having a hard time figuring out in my head how that would be produced and maintained over a long enough time period to matter.

 

[TheFactor]

hmmm now you have me wondering if I should get the EMO XPA-5

 

[PENG]

Yeah. Over the duration what you're saying is likely true. There are silent passages and especially for jazz and classical the music does not contain a lot of data at 0dBFS. Which is why I referred to "busy" music and used white noise as the extreme example.

I'm picturing music passages that kind of look like a square wave on an oscilloscope.... Although I'm having a hard time figuring out in my head how that would be produced and maintained over a long enough time period to matter.

It depends on the musical instruments involved. If it in fact looks like a square wave then I agree the average power to amplifier it will be more than that require to amplify a sine wave of the same peak. On the other hand if you picture something like a very peaky triangular wave then you would agree with the opposite right? All these seems interesting but irrelevant to what we have been discussing though.

I never did appreciate Mr. Fourier during my university math classes. It wasn't until I went back to take another course on communication years later, that I really appreciate what he had contributed to the telecommunication, the music industry, the hi fi world, just way too many to mention, so I should stop here.

 

[PENG]

hmmm now you have me wondering if I should get the EMO XPA-5

It is a matter of definitions for the expressions he used, if what he meant by vast improvements in stereo is the same as the way I interpret vast then I would go for the xpa-2 (500WX2 into 4 ohms). Your receiver can handle the rest. This is just my opinion, your need could/will be different. I put much more emphasis in music listening. I don't need super hifi for movie enjoyment. My home system sounds much better than most cinema's yet I still enjoy watching movies in cinemas.

By the way, his post gave me the impression that his emo has simply made his system sound louder. He really should re-calibrate (lower his pre-out level) his system if he has not yet done so.

 

[JJMP50]

I guess I wasn't making a lot of sense. The overall effect of the Emo is a great improvement. I was listening to Folk Alley yesterday and the acoustic guitars sounded like they were live in my living room and I was sitting in the circle. The detail was impressive. Some "progressive Irish folk/rock" was playing and the sound of the windwoods gave me chills. When I mentioned that TV prologic didn't have any improvement that was what was playing when I initially turned things on...the news. I'm not very sure you can improve the news with a new amp. Not an editorial coment just center speaker intense. When my wife complained, I did have it cranked a bit and was listening to Tom Petty's live anthology. My bad. Well, I have to go and remove 30" of snow from my driveway now.

 

[PENG]

I guess I wasn't making a lot of sense. The overall effect of the Emo is a great improvement. I was listening to Folk Alley yesterday and the acoustic guitars sounded like they were live in my living room and I was sitting in the circle. The detail was impressive. Some "progressive Irish folk/rock" was playing and the sound of the windwoods gave me chills. When I mentioned that TV prologic didn't have any improvement that was what was playing when I initially turned things on...the news. I'm not very sure you can improve the news with a new amp. Not an editorial coment just center speaker intense. When my wife complained, I did have it cranked a bit and was listening to Tom Petty's live anthology. My bad. Well, I have to go and remove 30" of snow from my driveway now.

Thank you for the clarification, but to do a proper comparison the minimum you need to do is level matching so that you are getting exactly (say within 1dB) the same SPL from your sitting position and at the same volume setting as your setup before adding the amp. May be you have done it already or you wouldn't bother. Regardless, I mentioned it in case others may not realize the importance of level matching. By the way it was your wife's comments ("way to much in her face") that alerted me in the first place. I should have congratulated you first for having made a wise purchase. Enjoy your new power!

 

[TheFactor]

Well, I have to go and remove 30" of snow from my driveway now.

The only advice I can give you is watch out for the snow plow I remember back in the day when I grew up in Chicago I would just finish shoveling my driveway and there would be the snow plow coming down my street with the driver smiling ear to ear counting the seconds until he reached my driveway so he could throw the snow back in my driveway covering it "and me to if I didnt get out of the way fast enough" with more snow then was there . Yes I stayed up late at night thinking evil things on how I could get even with him but fortunately for him and me I never put my plans into action

 

[Affejunge]

Bass voices start around 55-60Hz, IIRC. And soprano stops around 260-300Hz, IIRC.

I stand corrected.

From Wikipedia:
human voices are roughly in the range of 80 Hz to 1100 Hz

 

[jostenmeat]

I stand corrected.

From Wikipedia:
human voices are roughly in the range of 80 Hz to 1100 Hz

There is definitely a difference between "typical" range, and "professional" range.

Many can sing below 80hz. 55hz, however, is really really damn low. I'm not sure that I've ever met anyone who can sing that low. Well, I knew this really tall violist who could sing a C2, but that's not even down to 60hz yet. 55hz or A1 has been written before somewhere as an option, and Bb has been included a couple/few times in works.

As far as sopranos, they can blow way past 1100hz. At least for some professionals.