Denon 3805 Bass Management Problem

[MDS]

This past weekend I reset my system as follows:

Crossover - 80Hz
Speakers - Large
SW - LFE

If you set all the speakers to Large, then the crossover setting is ignored - each speaker gets a full range signal. Your sub will play ONLY the LFE and thus will only be active when you are playing a DD or DTS track with a .1 channel. It will be silent when playing a CD because all the bass is going to the other speakers.

If you like the way it sound, more power to you, but that setup is a huge waste of a sub for anything other than DD or DTS.

 

[shokhead]

If you set all the speakers to Large, then the crossover setting is ignored - each speaker gets a full range signal. Your sub will play ONLY the LFE and thus will only be active when you are playing a DD or DTS track with a .1 channel. It will be silent when playing a CD because all the bass is going to the other speakers.

If you like the way it sound, more power to you, but that setup is a huge waste of a sub for anything other than DD or DTS.

Odd,doesnt matter if mine are set to small or large,lfe or lfe+main,i still set the x over. Maybe i did something wrong.

 

[MDS]

You can set the xover to whatever you like but it will be ignored if all the speakers are Large. If it behaved otherwise, it would violate the rules of bass management and all receivers follow the rules.

 

[Wyngdh]

You can set the xover to whatever you like but it will be ignored if all the speakers are Large. If it behaved otherwise, it would violate the rules of bass management and all receivers follow the rules.

Rules are there to be broken. I played a CD on my CD player, with

Speakers = L
Xover = 80 Hz
SW = LFE

and there was some LFE to the SW.

I then changed all speakers to "S" and noticed the difference in detail (translation: more midrange) from my speakers. And all the LFE went to the SW. I briefly tried setting the FR & L to "L" but never gave it a thorough run. I felt that there was little detail difference, so I reset everything back to "S". I will continue to test and decide.

If any of you lived in the 1960's, you will recall a fellow by the name of Donovan (Leitch). Last year he brought out a CD "Beat Cafe". It has a lot of bass, especially "Beat Cafe" (I think 'Shambala' and 'Do not go lightly' are also good tracks to test. The CD is part folksy/jazz experimental. I rather liked the way it sounded on all speakers set to "S". I also tried Diana Krall, "The girls in the other room" track 4 - liked the detail.

I'm next going to try the DVD's Diana Krall (Live in Paris) and the Eagles (Hell freezes over) to see what it does to the bass.

I also worked out something (eventually). Contradict me if I'm wrong. But if you set your speakers to Large BEFORE you run the Auto Setup, the 3805 measures them in terms of response far more accurately (than if you preset them to "S" before starting the Auto Setup). Thereafter, resetting the speakers to "S" produces a far better output to and response from the speakers. I have CableTalk speaker cables on my front and centre speakers (bi-wired) and 'generic' on the surrounds. I want to replace the latter and see whether it makes a difference.

Denon 3806
Denon 2910
Marantz CD63 MkII
B&W 602S3,
B&W LCR60S3,
B&W ASW650,
B&W 610i

 

[MDS]

Rules are there to be broken. I played a CD on my CD player, with

Speakers = L
Xover = 80 Hz
SW = LFE

and there was some LFE to the SW.

There is no LFE on a CD. LFE is the Low Frequency Effects; ie the ".1" in a multi-channel DD or DTS track. In other words the 'LFE' setting for the SW only applies when the speakers are set to Large and you are playing a DD or DTS track that has a .1 channel. It means send ONLY the LFE to the Sub and not bass redirected from Small channels. The BOTH setting would send LFE and bass redirected from the Small channels to the sub AND the Large speakers. When all the speakers are set to Large, there is nothing to redirect - every speaker already gets all the bass! That is the definition of Large.

You are talking about 2 channel music and as long as you have subwoofer set to 'On' or 'yes' or whatever the Denon setting is, there will be sound at the subwoofer. I know the Denon manual is pretty dense, but they do explain all this stuff.

...and NO the rules are not there to be broken, especially with a mass market brand that sells millions of receivers. If it didnt follow the Dolby specifications for bass managment, like all other receivers in its class, it wouldn't sell.

No wonder bass management threads go on and on...it is apparently too difficult to understand.

 

[Wyngdh]

There is no LFE on a CD. LFE is the Low Frequency Effects; ie the ".1" in a multi-channel DD or DTS track. In other words the 'LFE' setting for the SW only applies when the speakers are set to Large and you are playing a DD or DTS track that has a .1 channel. It means send ONLY the LFE to the Sub and not bass redirected from Small channels. The BOTH setting would send LFE and bass redirected from the Small channels to the sub AND the Large speakers. When all the speakers are set to Large, there is nothing to redirect - every speaker already gets all the bass! That is the definition of Large.

You are talking about 2 channel music and as long as you have subwoofer set to 'On' or 'yes' or whatever the Denon setting is, there will be sound at the subwoofer. I know the Denon manual is pretty dense, but they do explain all this stuff.

...and NO the rules are not there to be broken, especially with a mass market brand that sells millions of receivers. If it didnt follow the Dolby specifications for bass managment, like all other receivers in its class, it wouldn't sell.

No wonder bass management threads go on and on...it is apparently too difficult to understand.

Well, aren't we a little piqued? Some of us just buy surround systems, we don't build them or study acoustics in depth. That's why threads like this exist. We're audioholics, not specialists.

There may be no LFE on CD. But if your crossover freq sends all LFE below 80 (or whatever your setting is) to the SW, does it not stand to reason that this is what is being transmitted, even if I am playing a CD? When listening to a jazz CD, the clarity of the bass is distinctly audible. And you're telling me that the LFE has nothing to do with it because it will only work in Dolby surround formats?

And yes, 'bass management' threads will continue to thrive for as long as there are people connecting sub-woofers and trying to get to grips with just how much bass do they want to rock the room or neighbourhood with.

The manuals to novices aren't that obvious in their explanations and it takes several tests and re-reads to get to grips with some of the concepts. The SW manuals can be just as cryptic to novices.

And on the subject, this weekend I am again going to reset my crossover to 60Hz and retest my system. So expect a few more dumb questions.

 

[mfabien]

...

There may be no LFE on CD. But if your crossover freq sends all LFE below 80 (or whatever your setting is) to the SW, does it not stand to reason that this is what is being transmitted, even if I am playing a CD? When listening to a jazz CD, the clarity of the bass is distinctly audible. And you're telling me that the LFE has nothing to do with it because it will only work in Dolby surround formats?

CD's do carry low frequency notes. Most MAIN speakers (set to LARGE) do a poor job below 50 Hz, even those rated for 40 Hz. A good subwoofer will ably reproduce low frequencies. So if you have a good quality subwoofer, set your speakers to SMALL and allow the a/v to apply its crossover.

 

[Wyngdh]

CD's do carry low frequency notes. Most MAIN speakers (set to LARGE) do a poor job below 50 Hz, even those rated for 40 Hz. A good subwoofer will ably reproduce low frequencies. So if you have a good quality subwoofer, set your speakers to SMALL and allow the a/v to apply its crossover.

Thank you, mfabien. I feel vindicated. I reset my speakers some time back to "Small" and my SW is doing it's job quite nicely. I just love all the mid-range I'm starting to 'hear'. This weekend, I'm going to play again and reset to 60Hz xover, still with all speakers on small. I had earlier tried this and played a Shirley Horn CD - the effects were amazing. You could even hear the chatter in the background. I played that same CD the other day with the 80 Hz xover and some of that mid-range was again lost.

Denon 3805, 2910
Marantz CD63MkII
B&W ASW650, LCR60S3, 602S3, 610i

 

[MDS]

A CD will have low frequencies but it does NOT have LFE (Low Frequency Effects). The reason there is confusion is because people are using the acronym LFE to apply to multi-channel DD or DTS tracks AND for 'low' frequencies.

A vinyl album of 80s Funk will have low frequencies and those low frequencies will be routed to the sub but they are still not LFE. The subwoofer 'mode' setting on the Denon (LFE or BOTH) is applicable only to LFE and therefore only applicable when playing something with LFE. The LFE is the '.1' in DD 5.1.

The sub will always be active in stereo mode and the xover setting will be used. All of this was explained in the first few posts of this thread.

 

[mfabien]

I thought my post was clear that the sub will more often than not do a better job to reproduce low frequencies than Main speakers. I did not even make mention of LFE.

 

[avauthority]

I think many people are mistaken about the LFE+Main function. As the manual states "When the 'LFE+MAIN' playback mode is selected, the low frequency signal range of channels set to 'LARGE' are produced simultaneously from those channels and the subwoofer channel." Contrary to the general mistaken popular belief, this does not in any way mean that the mains are reproducing LFE signals in addition to the sub. Rather, it means that all frequencies below the crossover setting are sent to both that respective speaker (if set to large) and to the sub.

This mode is my favorate because I get the full possible frequency responce from my speakers, and every frequency that is too low for my speakers to reproduce is picked up by the sub. Thus, the crossover can be set lower (I use 60Hz), and all speakers can be safely set to large without any droped frequencies, as the sub will pickup anything the speaker cannot.

When aspeaker is set to small, all frequencies between the crossover frequency and the speaker's-low end frequency responce (which is usually not accuratly known) are not realized by that speaker. When you want your speakers to go as low as they can go, this is very undesirable.

 

[avliner]

Avauthority,

very interesting your comments; however your theory contradicts any previous one, as any reliable literature does recommend to set all your speakers to small for their best performance.

Just in case, try to read the folowing article on this forum:

SYSTEMS SET UP & CONFIGURATIONS
(Bass Management Basics - Settings Made Simple)
Published by Clint De Boer.

If your theory is correct, than I'll make mine someone else's comments:
RULES ARE TO BE BROKEN!


Regards.
Avliner

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Avauthority,

very interesting your comments; however your theory contradicts any previous one, as any reliable literature does recommend to set all your speakers to small for their best performance.

Just in case, try to read the folowing article on this forum:

SYSTEMS SET UP & CONFIGURATIONS
(Bass Management Basics - Settings Made Simple)
Published by Clint De Boer.

If your theory is correct, than I'll make mine someone else's comments:
RULES ARE TO BE BROKEN!


Regards.
Avliner

I don't think either one of you are wrong. If you have a $500 (or less) AV receiver, then you really need to let the sub handle the bass. Bass consumes more current than all other drivers combined. If you have a flagship unit (or upper end unit), or separates, and your towers can handle the lower frequencies, then you should allow your towers to reproduce the lower frequencies. The best bet is to try it both ways and see what you like. I currently have my towers and center set to large, and LFE+Main. Sounds better, and the Denon 3805 seems to be able to handle the demands. A Denon 1905 would definitely need to be set to LFE, and all speakers set to small IMO.

 

[avliner]

Will definetely try a new set up this weekend, just to see how it will performs. Further comments should follow.
Avliner

 

[avauthority]

The main thing I am trying to clarify is the confusion on this forum as to the function of the LFE+Main setting. As the manual states, everything below the crossover setting is output from speakers set to large AND the sub- it does not in any way suggest that LFE signals are sent to both the speakers and the sub. I am very confused as to where this seemingly obvious misconception came from, as it seems that is what everyone on here incorrectly thinks.