Denon 3805 Bass Management Problem

[MDS]

I personally don't think there is any good reason to set ANY speakers to Large.

The Large setting is only useful if:
1. You don't have a sub.
2. Your mains are truly large and can play very low bass accurately and you prefer them to the subwoofer.
3. You want to route LFE to the mains as well as the subwoofer (LFE+MAIN setting) because you really like the bass to dominate the music.

If you like 2 or 3, then it will only be applicable to surround formats with a .1 (LFE) channel. For all other formats, you get the behavior Seismo is experiencing, which for most people is less than satisfying.

 

[mitch57]

What about with powered towers?

 

[Nick250]

Is there a good reason to set a basic center speaker to large?

No, but there is good reason not to. By setting the center to small it no longer has the duty to reproduce the lower frequencies. That frees up to center to better handle the higher frequencies all the better.

Nick

 

[shokhead]

I know that but Seismo had it set to large in #2 setup.

 

[mitch57]

So what do you suggest for powered towers and powered center speakers? My fronts have built in Subs that go down to 15hz and my center goes down to 21hz. I don't have a seperate sub. I am using the Denon 3805 as my pre/pro and a Rotel RMB-1095 as my amp.

I currently have my crossover set to 60hz because my surrounds only go down to 45hz. My two fronts and center are set to large and my surrounds are set to small. My current setting is LFE+Main and Subwoofer=yes.

I listen almost exclusively to DVDA and SACD with some DTS and redbook CDs. I've played with the settings but I don't hear any (or very little) difference when I make any changes while listening to multi-channel recordings through the 6 analog connections. I believe I read somewhere that none of the above settings have any effect on sources distributed through the 6 analog connections.

Does that mean I have to rely solely on the DVD players bass management to control bass output? Is the Denon 3805 capable of providing any bass management throught the 6 analog connections?

Thanks in advance,

Mitch

 

[MDS]

So what do you suggest for powered towers and powered center speakers? My fronts have built in Subs that go down to 15hz and my center goes down to 21hz. I don't have a seperate sub. I am using the Denon 3805 as my pre/pro and a Rotel RMB-1095 as my amp.

I currently have my crossover set to 60hz because my surrounds only go down to 45hz. My two fronts and center are set to large and my surrounds are set to small. My current setting is LFE+Main and Subwoofer=yes.

Because the mains have a built-in powered sub you would want to send them a full-range signal and let the speaker's crossover separate the lows from the highs - so I would say the choice of Large for mains and center is correct. If those built-in subs and center can accurately reproduce bass as low as you've stated, you really don't need a sub!

There is one complication, however. If you set the surrounds to Small and subwoofer=yes but don't actually have a sub, you are discarding the bass below the crossover from the surround channels (because it will be sent out the sub pre-out on the receiver to the non-existent sub). Given that there isn't usually alot of very low bass in the surround channels and crossovers aren't brick wall filters that cut off exactly at the crossover frequency, you probably aren't missing much anyway.

Subwoofer=no MAY redirect the bass below the crossover to the mains - some receivers do and some don't and I don't have a Denon, so I can't tell you for sure.

- If you set the surrounds to Large instead, they will get a full-range signal and since they are pretty capable (45Hz) that might be better for the few instances where there is fairly low bass in the surrounds (like 5/7 ch Stereo which just duplicates the front signals to the surrounds).

I believe I read somewhere that none of the above settings have any effect on sources distributed through the 6 analog connections.Does that mean I have to rely solely on the DVD players bass management to control bass output?

That is true for most receivers; it certainly is for mine. If the bass management capabilities of the player are lacking, the other solution is to get a device like the Outlaw ICBM and insert it between the player and the receiver.

 

[shokhead]

So what do you suggest for powered towers and powered center speakers? My fronts have built in Subs that go down to 15hz and my center goes down to 21hz. I don't have a seperate sub. I am using the Denon 3805 as my pre/pro and a Rotel RMB-1095 as my amp.

I currently have my crossover set to 60hz because my surrounds only go down to 45hz. My two fronts and center are set to large and my surrounds are set to small. My current setting is LFE+Main and Subwoofer=yes.

I listen almost exclusively to DVDA and SACD with some DTS and redbook CDs. I've played with the settings but I don't hear any (or very little) difference when I make any changes while listening to multi-channel recordings through the 6 analog connections. I believe I read somewhere that none of the above settings have any effect on sources distributed through the 6 analog connections.

Does that mean I have to rely solely on the DVD players bass management to control bass output? Is the Denon 3805 capable of providing any bass management throught the 6 analog connections?

Thanks in advance,

Mitch

Bass management is done in the DVD player for SACD and DVD-A. 15 and 21Hz is fine is it goes loud enought. 25Hz at 90db isnt much to talk about for a sub. 30Hz at 115db will get it done. Its not only how low but it has to be loud enough to be effective.

 

[laseray]

Need help on Denon 5803

Been following the thread on the 3805, seems just like the problem I am having on the 5803. I can't get anything out of the Powered Sub in test mode. Haven't even got to listening to music yet. Set for small, Sub yes, Sub is a Velodyne 12, I have tried changing the phase etc.

 

[mitch57]

Because the mains have a built-in powered sub you would want to send them a full-range signal and let the speaker's crossover separate the lows from the highs - so I would say the choice of Large for mains and center is correct. If those built-in subs and center can accurately reproduce bass as low as you've stated, you really don't need a sub!

There is one complication, however. If you set the surrounds to Small and subwoofer=yes but don't actually have a sub, you are discarding the bass below the crossover from the surround channels (because it will be sent out the sub pre-out on the receiver to the non-existent sub). Given that there isn't usually alot of very low bass in the surround channels and crossovers aren't brick wall filters that cut off exactly at the crossover frequency, you probably aren't missing much anyway.

Subwoofer=no MAY redirect the bass below the crossover to the mains - some receivers do and some don't and I don't have a Denon, so I can't tell you for sure.

- If you set the surrounds to Large instead, they will get a full-range signal and since they are pretty capable (45Hz) that might be better for the few instances where there is fairly low bass in the surrounds (like 5/7 ch Stereo which just duplicates the front signals to the surrounds).

I forgot to mention that my powered towers also have the LFE RCA input jack which I am using. I ran a "Y" adapter from my receivers subwoofer pre-out and am sending .1 signals to the mains via the RCA connections in addition to the speaker wire connections.

Also, do you still think I should try setting my surrounds to large and maybe setting the receiver crossover to 40hz instead of 60hz?

 

[shokhead]

Try front mains to lg and the rest to small and set the x over to 80 and see.

 

[Seismo]

After my friend did a second test (setup 2) on his system, I'm glad to report that his Denon 3805 does exactly as mine and others. To his defence, he does not have OSD actived, so moving in the setup using the receiver front display can be confusing.

Some were wondering why I was using setup 2...well I am not. All this started one night that I was playing in the menu and I noticed that the sub had no output (in setup 2) even when the SW logo was lite on the receiver display......that's how I got going on this subject.

I usually use setup 1 for music and all SP=Small and Xover=80 Hz for movies.

Now, I'm curious to know if other brands of receivers operate in the same fashion......anyone?

Seismo

 

[MDS]

Now, I'm curious to know if other brands of receivers operate in the same fashion......anyone?

Seismo

Yes, all receivers follow the Dolby recommendations for bass managment. Dolby defines three different configurations on their website if you want to read about them.

The LFE+MAIN (Plus, 'Double Bass' etc) is an optional configuration but once one manufacturer added it, they all followed suit with 'me too'; eg my last Onkyo did not have that option, but the new one (502) does.

 

[shokhead]

I think its Denon or i read it somewhere the they say LFE+Mains with bass capable speakers. It took some researce to find out what they mean by bass capable. It is speakers that play down to 20Hz so that leave's me out as mine are rated to 47Hz. I leave my 2805 speakers to small but i'm still playing with either 60 or 80 for the x over. If i set my main fronts to small or large, the x over is still working the same,right?

 

[MDS]

If i set my main fronts to small or large, the x over is still working the same,right?

Not if subwoofer=yes. With mains set to Small, the bass below the crossover is sent to the Sub. If they are set to Large, then they get a full-range signal.

 

[pbarach]

auto setup thinks my speakers are LARGE

I have Kef Q-7's as my front speakers, and Q-1's as the surround speakers. When I run the auto setup (with subwoofer ON), the 3805 decides that my front and surround speakers are LARGE. Now, the front speakers aren't bass-shy, but clearly the Q-1's are clearly lacking in bass, whatever their virtues. I have the crossover frequency set to 80 Hz; if I set it higher, the bass becomes too directional and clearly comes from the subwoofer. To me, what would seem to make sense, after auto-setup, is to change all the speakers to SMALL, and the bass to LFE. With this setup, I would expect to hear everything below 80 Hz, from all channels, coming from the subwoofer; and no signal over 80 Hz coming from anything *except* the subwoofer. Have I got that right?

 

[shokhead]

You wont get anything over 80 to the sub. 80Hz as the x over sends 80Hz down to the sub so the other speakers can play above 80Hz. Set them to small and whatever you set the x over at is where it goes over to the sub.

 

[PENG]

The sub will get some signals above the XO frequency, but the signals will be attenuated by -X dB (X=6,12,18 etc.) per octave, or something like that.

 

[tanna11]

Bass test tones not produced

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, I am new to the board and the topic. I have the 3805 and the auto-setup mic. I currently do not have surround speakers set up or a center channel (just 2.1). When I do the test tones, the front right and front left speakers work fine but no test tones are produced from the subwoofer. Any ideas why? Thanks.

 

[Wyngdh]

Seismo,
Large speakers
Subwoofer won't get any bass from any channels set to Large - the Large speakers get a full-range signal.
-->Subwoofer mode=LFE: For DD or DTS with a .1 channel, the sub gets the LFE.
-->Subwoofer mode=LFE+MAIN: For DD or DTS with a .1 channel, the subwoofer gets the LFE AND the Large speakers get the LFE (in addition to the 'regular' bass they are already getting).
--> For non DD or DTS, there is no LFE channel so the subwoofer mode setting is ignored - the Large speakers still get a full-range signal.

- If you want the subwoofer to play the bass (non LFE), you must set the speakers to Small.
- If you want the other speakers to play the bass (non LFE), set them to Large.
- If you want the sub to play the LFE only, set the speakers to Large and the subwoofer mode to LFE.
- If you want the speakers to play the non-LFE bass AND the LFE bass, set the speakers to Large and the subwoofer mode to LFE+MAIN.

I've spent the last few weeks testing various cross-over frequencies (80 and 60), with varying speaker settings (front large, rest small, then all small) and been very unhappy with the results. Besides the fact that when the Auto Setup tested my speakers, it set them to "Large. Without all the testing gadgets, I rely on my ears and to me the sound was not clear and it seemed that the speakers were struggling. I felt there was distortion. I had someone check the speakers and they confirmed that the settings were wrong and my speakers were not damaged. They reset some of the settings, but I still wasn't happy.

This past weekend I reset my system as follows:

Crossover - 80Hz
Speakers - Large
SW - LFE

It is my opinion that my speakers are much 'happier' and (according to my tuneless ear) the sound is balanced and clear. (Or should it be the other way round?). You can hear every pluck of the bass. There is no 'listener's stress'.

Now it may not be 'testbook' right and the experts will debunk this, but at the end of the day, it's me that has to listen and be satisfied with the sound. And so far, I'm happy!

Denon 3805
Denon 2910
Marantz CD63MkII
B&W ASW650
B&W LCR60S3
B&W 602S3
B&W 610i

 

[Wyngdh]

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, I am new to the board and the topic. I have the 3805 and the auto-setup mic. I currently do not have surround speakers set up or a center channel (just 2.1). When I do the test tones, the front right and front left speakers work fine but no test tones are produced from the subwoofer. Any ideas why? Thanks.

Check the back of your amp - it's possible you've connected the SW incorrectly.