Decisions... Hsu STF-2 or SVS PB10-ISD?

[einsteinjb]

Hello all,

OK don't spank me please, I know this question has been debated endlessly here. I've read a LOT of threads on the subject and I am totally sold that both subs, the Hsu STF-2 and the SVS PB10-ISD, are awesome subs and I'd be thrilled with either one.

My question specifically is this: The SVS sacrifices features (speaker-level ins and outs, crossover frequency control and rolloff filter, etc.) in favor of a more powerful BASH amp, 300 watts vs. the 200 watt amp in the Hsu. Has anyone here actually compared these two subs and if so can you tell me, how big a difference does the extra power in the SVS make? An extra 100 watts (50% more) seems like it should make a lot of difference, but I know design affects a sub's performance as much as sheer power and everyone raves about the STF-2 so I'm not quite sold yet on the SVS based strictly on power. I would like the option of using my new sub in my recording studio as well (my old studio sub recently went belly up) and I couldn't do that with the SVS since I use a 2-channel amp in the studio and need speaker level ins and outs with xover to use it there. But, I'm addicted to LFE in movies, and don't want to discover after the purchase that the STF-2 doesn't rumble enough.

FYI, this is for a basic HT I just put together in my parents' living room, which is rather small. Don't have the exact dimensions but it's probably something like 12x14, maybe a bit bigger? It holds a TV, sofa, two chairs, not much else, so it doesn't need anything huge. Plus my mother won't tolerate a big box in the room so I'm ruling out a 12" for now.

Also I'm a professional audio engineer, I do both live sound and studio recording, so I can't tolerate inferior audio. I'm using an Onkyo TX-SR702 receiver, B&W DM602 S2s for fronts, Boston Acoustics CR75 bookshelf speakers for rears (cheap but amazing for the price), and a Boston Acoustics CRC center channel speaker (of course I want all B&Ws but this little guy rocks for the size and price, and mom doesn't yell too much about it).

My partner in my audio business has an all-B&W system with a Paradigm PW2200 12" sub, and that thing (the Paradigm sub) just blows me away. Currently I'm using a very underpowered little 70 watt 500 series B&W 10" sub and it really can't keep up. Everyone here seems to prefer SVS & Hsu to Paradigm subs so again I expect either one will sound great.

One last thing, if anyone has an opinion on it -- I was briefly considering the JBL Studio series S120PII 12" sub, which is a bit too big for the space but it's available online for like $309 and I liked a cheaper little JBL sub I used to have, so I was wondering if anyone could tell me just how badly this thing would suck compared to the Hsu or SVS? hehe. It has a 400 watt amp and gets fairly good reviews (but then those folks might never have heard a Hsu or SVS or know the difference).

Thanks for any advice!

 

[Spiffyfast]

both are amazing subs, maybe you should get both and send back the loser, everything is going to sound different in you own place

 

[Duffinator]

Have you read this:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/svs-pb10-subwoofer-10-2004.html

I set up the HSU for a friend and it's quite impressive. If you need the speaker level inputs your decision is already made. Besides my bias towards SVS you will be happy with either one.

 

[Mort Corey]

I realize it's not one of the choices, but I would consider one of the tube subs if space is a consideration. More sub per square inch and the sound will be the same.

Mort

 

[mulester7]

.....EinsteinJB, welcome to Audioholics.com, and is the sub going to be used for Home Theater watching DVD's and movies, or music?....sure, both are probably on the horizon, but can you give a percentage?....like 60% Home Theater and 40% music?....75-25?....50-50?....the reason I am asking this will have a bearing.....

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

If space is an issue...

You do realize the PB10 ISD is HUGE, right? It's 60lbs compared to the 44lb STF, and 15.5x19x21.5 compared to 14x19x18. The JBL is 17x16x18, and weighs in at 56lbs. It's the most compact of the bunch, with the largest woofer, as well as amp. For the price, the JBL is hard to beat. The other two use larger cabinets to make up for the 10" driver. I doubt you'll hit those low frequencies with the same dB level with a 10" driver, as opposed to the JBL's 12". The JBL was a $700 sub, and would probably compare more to the PB12 ISD and V versions of the SVS, but in a more compact cabinet. The SVS 12" will go lower because of the sheer size of the cabinet, but will not work as well for music. The JBL, IMHO, will probably give you more satisfaction over either 10" version of the HSU or SVS.

Here's part of a review on the JBL from a ecoustics member:
"Looked into adding some tighter bass for music over my 15" Definitive Technology PF15TL+. Sounds clean, music and movies, haven't been able to get the speaker to distort , bottom out or pop. I took the speaker out and its freakn huge. It looks like a monster car sub. Much better sound over my 15". Turns out its so much cleaner and smoother that I just sold my DT15 on ebay for 500$ and bought another for 333$. Even for 500-600$ its well worth it. Clean,tight,loud bass, low port noise and hardly any cabinet rattle."

 

[j_garcia]

Having owned the VTF-2 and then replacing it with the PB-10, I'd say I have a good idea of the differences. The VTF-2 is a bit faster, even in full extension config, which would be the same as the STF-2, but it cannot even come close to the extension of the PB-10. If it's music you're after though, and not extension, I'd say the STF-2 is a good choice.

I'd have to disagree on the JBL subs. I've heard the recent JBL subs, and they don't even come close to the authority of the SVS 12" models. In fact, some of the 12" models aren't even as good as the PB-10. In a smaller room, the PB-10 is pretty amazing, and even in my larger room, it's still impressive.

Here's a pic of the VTF-2 next to the PB-10:

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/jgarcia_14/detail?.dir=9669&.dnm=801e.jpg&.src=ph

The PB-10 is about 1-1/2 X the size of the VTF-2, and the STF-2 is a little smaller.

I haven't heard them yet, but you might also consider the Outlaw Audio subs.

 

[silversurfer]

j garcia, that is the old VTF-2 isn't it? So it had the older amp. The newer amp is suppose to make the sub a bit dynamic, and the STF-2 actually has more average power than your old VTF-2 had and much more peak power.

When comparing subs, the power differences mean little unless you know the rest of the equation, one being driver efficiency. Unless you know that, it is all marketing. But all things being equal, doubling the power will give you 3dB of headroom.

 

[Tomorrow]

Hi and welcome to Audioholics.

I have had and found wanting the JBL S120PII. It's the flagship of the JBL home theater, consumer electronics line and it doesn't keep up with my little Hsu STF-1 (8")! True. I sold my JBL shortly after I received the Hsu. The Hsu provides more punch and SPLs, believe it or not. Not the depth, however. Which is why I'm saving my Pepsi cans for an SVS PB-12.

I believe either the Hsu or the SVS will satisfy you and your folks...for music or HT. Just mho, skip the JBL sub. (I find, in general, the Studio Series speakers to be more than satisfactory, however.)

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Speachless

I have had and found wanting the JBL S120PII. It's the flagship of the JBL home theater, consumer electronics line and it doesn't keep up with my little Hsu STF-1 (8")! True. I sold my JBL shortly after I received the Hsu. The Hsu provides more punch and SPLs, believe it or not. Not the depth, however. Which is why I'm saving my Pepsi cans for an SVS PB-12.

I'm speachless. The STF-1 must provide more punch and spl's than the PB10 ISD then, because I've heard the entire lineup of SVS subs. An 8" driver surpassing a $700 400 watt 12" sub is amazing to me. If you're that impressed with the STF-1, I'd hold off on the PB-12 and save your pennies for something more substantial. The SVS line will not give you punch. Maybe you can integrate it with your STF-1 for the best of both worlds.

By "not keeping up," do you mean musically? I can understand an 8" driver being faster, and possibly providing more punch (in the right sized cabinet), but if it's geared like the SVS units, it's meant for HT. Even the PB10 is all depth, and provides very little punch, or spl for that matter, IMHO.

 

[silversurfer]

Hsu and SVS apparently have different thoughts on what great bass is and how to achieve it....very easy to see by just looking at the subs and drivers.

I have heard the STF-1 once, and it is a remarkable achiever above 32hz...which is actually where all the punch is.

Heard the PB10 once as well and also thought is was a great performer, but with different talents.

It is all in what you are looking for. We always read about how deep a sub goes, or deep bass in movies, but honestly, how many movies are like that? Look at the new releases on Netflix or Blockbuster every week and tell me how many of them go below 30hz. Of course where there is one...it is nice to get that low. But take that 10hz range between 20 and 30hz with two subs that have that difference, and compare watching movies that have good output down to 20hz, I am willing to bet that you lose very little of the experience if your sub did not get to 20hz.

 

[Tomorrow]

I'm speachless. The STF-1 must provide more punch and spl's than the PB10 ISD then, because I've heard the entire lineup of SVS subs. An 8" driver surpassing a $700 400 watt 12" sub is amazing to me. If you're that impressed with the STF-1, I'd hold off on the PB-12 and save your pennies for something more substantial. The SVS line will not give you punch. Maybe you can integrate it with your STF-1 for the best of both worlds.

By "not keeping up," do you mean musically? I can understand an 8" driver being faster, and possibly providing more punch (in the right sized cabinet), but if it's geared like the SVS units, it's meant for HT. Even the PB10 is all depth, and provides very little punch, or spl for that matter, IMHO.

Buckeyefan,

The JBL was in no way, HT-wise or 2-ch musically, the equal of the little STF-1. Maybe your comment would more appropriately have been that I was that "unimpressed with the JBL". It would play 'louder', but the output was little more than boomy rumble. So in one sense, you're correct. The Hsu is more 'musical', yes. In terms of sound amplitude, and this relates to another recent post I made (my not understanding the need for HUMONGOUSAURUS subwoofereri, ala Mulesters Monsters), both play much louder than I, or any normal human wants to listen to for more than a couple of "Hey y'all, listen to THIS!!" moments. (I have a very large room, btw.) As I said, the JBL played deeper by a little, as well. But in a head to head.....fuhgetaboutit. STF-1 wins hands down. How loud can you set your 'reference' level and stay sane?

At this time, it is my intention to utilize both subs (the hoped for SVS and the STF-1) in my setup, but that is subject to change. I still need that subsonic depth (that the JBL did not provide), and I believe that the SVS will give that without stealing away the punch of the STF-1.

And one last thought...the JBL, the SVS PB-10 (and perhaps the STF-2???) are front-firing. I definitely prefer the down-firing subs. They appear, to me at least, to be less directional. I always was quite aware of the location of the JBL, no matter its placement.

 

[Tomorrow]

I'm speachless. The STF-1 must provide more punch and spl's than the PB10 ISD then, because I've heard the entire lineup of SVS subs. An 8" driver surpassing a $700 400 watt 12" sub is amazing to me. If you're that impressed with the STF-1, I'd hold off on the PB-12 and save your pennies for something more substantial. The SVS line will not give you punch. Maybe you can integrate it with your STF-1 for the best of both worlds.

By "not keeping up," do you mean musically? I can understand an 8" driver being faster, and possibly providing more punch (in the right sized cabinet), but if it's geared like the SVS units, it's meant for HT. Even the PB10 is all depth, and provides very little punch, or spl for that matter, IMHO.

Oh, one more thing....If I really DID leave you speachless Buckeyefan, I demand a promotion from 'Member' to 'Sergeant', or something. LOL.

 

[mulester7]

HUMONGOUSAURUS subwoofereri, ala Mulesters Monsters

.....which can either do 30 miles an hour, or 180 miles an hour, haha....

.....hey, let's say you get an email saying a situation has arisen that would enable you to get two subwoofers listing for 2499 apiece for a total of 2499....what would you do?....yes, they were considered B-stock with substandard veneer on top of the cabinets that were puttied and painted....

.....I believe Buck is heading in the right direction thinking subs for the very low lows, and subs for accent and pop above the low lows in the higher sub range....his experience in this audio field really got me to thinking about this whole mess....I go to a car audio shop tomorrow to listen to 10's pop me from a sealed box....then a decision will be made as to which direction to head out in....(yes, that was two prepositions at the end of a sentence).....

 

[silversurfer]

rjbudz,

Since you like the STF-1, why not go for a bigger Hsu instead of an SVS?

The STF-2 is downfiring.

 

[Tomorrow]

.....hey, let's say you get an email saying a situation has arisen that would enable you to get two subwoofers listing for 2499 apiece for a total of 2499....what would you do?....


If wishes were subwoofers, then I would own two.
But at that price, I'll say that they're only for you.


Married+disabled=negative cash flow,
Poor Poet Twice Over, and lacking the dough

 

[Tomorrow]

rjbudz,

Since you like the STF-1, why not go for a bigger Hsu instead of an SVS?

The STF-2 is downfiring.

Silversurfer,

I long considered that option. I still might make a go of it, frankly. The Hsu IS less expensive, and that's important to me. But I think that the SVS plumbs just a bit deeper into the subsonic realm. Also, and owners here can enlighten me if I'm rubbing a sore, but SVS seem harder to find as used units. Is that because people hold on to them more dearly or purchase them less frequently and there are less in circulation than Hsu's? Dunno.

I am VERY interested in the comments here. This is the first thread where I've seen some differences expressed between the two competitors in terms of sound delivery and sub-philosophy. I had come to think of them as very competitive twin sisters. Usually one sees only discussions of relative minute advantages one has over the other...and typically based on whether one owns a SVS or Hsu. I would appreciate hearing more along the lines of bass presentation differences of the two lines. And I apologize for hijacking the thread.

 

[silversurfer]

I think the reason why there are more Hsus for sale is because there are more of them. Hsu has been around a lot longer than SVS...10-15 years vs 4-6 years.

Looking on Audiogon there are 6 Hsu subs for sale (one part of an entire HT set), out of the 6, 3 are not in production any more. There are 3 SVS subs for sale, looks like all three are pretty new too. Hmmm...interesting.

I know there is a lot of fighting between who makes a better sub, but by just what you can see on the subs themselves, they have different philosophies. Anybody that has heard any number of subs from both companies can tell you they sound different.

As for SVS playing deeper, what is the magic number for you? Hsu's VTF-3MK2 is clean/flat to 18-20hz. SVS has some models that play lower than that, but then you lose efficiency and the punch in the upper bass that some think they already lack. SVS's are also on the whole much larger subs, so they get some of that efficiency back due to their size.

 

[9f9c7z]

Here's a pic of the VTF-2 next to the PB-10:

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/jgarcia_14/detail?.dir=9669&.dnm=801e.jpg&.src=ph

Einstein – welcome to the board!


J_Garcia – I tried to send you a pm but can’t figure it out.

I looked at the pix in the link you posted. Forget the subs, who makes the spkr stand you have the bookshelf spkr sitting on in the other pix? Size of the plate on top of the stand? Would you recommend those stands? If so, where did you get them? Thanks!

 

[einsteinjb]

I can't thank everyone enough for the wealth of enthusiastic (and quick!!) replies! I can't believe how fast this thread filled up. Hot topic perhaps? It's fascinating to me how varied everyone's opinions are on this topic, and also the tangents this thread's branching off into.

Thanks especially to those who actually own or have at least heard one or more of the subs I mentioned. I've totally ruled out the JBL; I'm sure it's loud, specs look nice, but I'm hearing too many adjectives like boomy, undefined, etc. from too many people. In all the many many posts about SVS or Hsu I've read, NOBODY says that about either of them.

It's also interesting to note that SOME (not all) users say SVS subs lack some punch (though they play deep) -- but I have yet to read a single comment saying Hsu subs have that problem. No one seems to feel the Hsus are underpowered, so that's reassuring. (As a live sound engineer, well I do sometimes like to push my system, when the 'rents aren't home. If everything's still on the shelves upstairs after watching a Matrix movie, well, I ain't feelin it.

And the specs on Hsu's web site say the current model STF-2 stays flat to +/- 2 dB at 25 Hz, which is definitely deep enough for the room I'm working in. Plus the speaker level ins and outs give me options the PB10 doesn't, so I'm feeling pretty well sold on the Hsu. (And I can always get an SVS later to try in the theater!) Now I'm REALLY curious to compare the STF-2 with my buddy's bigger Paradigm PW2200, which we both love (though I feel it's a touch sloppy on music, could be his room or placement of course).

As for whether I'm listening primarily to music or movies, well eventually I need one sub for each since I still have to replace my studio sub (though I do listen to music on the theater system as well). That's why I'm really leaning towards the Hsu, as I can use it in either room right away. I like that I can extend the electronics warranty on the Hsu too, that's sweet.

So thanks again everyone, and please, keep debating the issue. I'm diggin it.

(BTW It's going to be a bit before I have the $$ to order the sub. When I do I'll add my own $.02 to this thread, after break-in of course.