DECENT TURNTABLE WANTED TO BUY

[highfigh]

I don't think many people today even understand that TTs aren't plug and play. You actually have to set them up and get everything aligned, etc.

I'm not sure that the average consumer understood this during the vinyl hey-day. Nowadays, it is even worse!

With the resurgence of TTs and the general lack of public knowledge, it is a niche where a charlatan could easily capitalize on ignorant consumers. Probably worse than many other segments of the industry right now.

With so many people wanting instant gratification, doing a little work in order to listen to a record is a bit of a stretch, these days. It may be partly due to CDs- you don't even need to get up and flip it to listen to Side 2.

Too many people have shed their conscience and decided that gouging people for BS is OK and I think the victims should feed it back to them. So many people just say "Oh, well" and give up, then sell off whatever it was that disappointed them without ever giving it a real chance.

 

[3db]

With so many people wanting instant gratification, doing a little work in order to listen to a record is a bit of a stretch, these days. It may be partly due to CDs- you don't even need to get up and flip it to listen to Side 2.

Too many people have shed their conscience and decided that gouging people for BS is OK and I think the victims should feed it back to them. So many people just say "Oh, well" and give up, then sell off whatever it was that disappointed them without ever giving it a real chance.

I've done both (accepting and giving it back in spades) depending on how much it cost me and how much time I have available to me.

Streaming as trumped the CD which in turn has trumped vinyl in terms of convience. However, having the ability to get involved in the playing process has moved the other way..with streaming offering no involvment what so ever, CD offering very little but more than CD, and vinyl actually get the listener involved in preparation to play the medium.

I don't know if convience is at fault at what I'm about to say but I find music listening habits very odd for my kid's generation. They skip from hit song to hit song without ever playing an album in its entirety. Sure there were people with my kids music listening habits that when I was growing but they by far the minority. The majority listened to the entire album and got to know the artist far better than my kid's generation.

 

[highfigh]

I've done both (accepting and giving it back in spades) depending on how much it cost me and how much time I have available to me.

Streaming as trumped the CD which in turn has trumped vinyl in terms of convience. However, having the ability to get involved in the playing process has moved the other way..with streaming offering no involvment what so ever, CD offering very little but more than CD, and vinyl actually get the listener involved in preparation to play the medium.

I don't know if convience is at fault at what I'm about to say but I find music listening habits very odd for my kid's generation. They skip from hit song to hit song without ever playing an album in its entirety. Sure there were people with my kids music listening habits that when I was growing but they by far the minority. The majority listened to the entire album and got to know the artist far better than my kid's generation.

Going from hit to hit is like radio- if that works for them, fine, but if someone really wants to get into the artist, they would have to go into everything produced. This is the crux- they don't care about who produced what, why or when, they just want to listen to what's popular. Awfully superficial, IMO.

People generally aren't interested in music as much or in the same ways as they were in the past, for a variety of reasons. Might be that they didn't have music classes, never wanted/weren't guided to learning an instrument and more importantly (to them), their friends never did, either. Peer pressure and expectations are extremely powerful.

As a kid, my friends listened to pop/bubble gum stuff and when we went to my house, I played what I liked, as well as what my brother liked and brought home after he heard it in middle and high school. He's about three years older and this was in '66-'72, so I was turned on to a lot of great music. He was also into classical and I got to hear what was grabbing his ear (standard repertoire, as well as early music). Personally, I lean toward Jazz more than Classical, but I enjoy most music with the exceptions of Rap and Hip-Hop. Those don't do it, for me.

I'm listening to Low Spark on vinyl at the moment and some of it sounds like I'm in the same room.

 

[TLS Guy]

You should always use the Dust Bug dry.

I always did, I just wanted to state that I bought an original Dust Bug and not an imitation. I will look for a rubber mat. Any suggestions???

Sorry I have not been on the market for one. The mats on my turntables are over a half century old and as good as new!

 

[3db]

Going from hit to hit is like radio- if that works for them, fine, but if someone really wants to get into the artist, they would have to go into everything produced. This is the crux- they don't care about who produced what, why or when, they just want to listen to what's popular. Awfully superficial, IMO.

100% in agreement there. Its rather sad.

People generally aren't interested in music as much or in the same ways as they were in the past, for a variety of reasons. Might be that they didn't have music classes, never wanted/weren't guided to learning an instrument and more importantly (to them), their friends never did, either. Peer pressure and expectations are extremely powerful.

I never was the popular kid in school because I walked to my own beat and didn't give a rat's ass what people thought of me. I'm still like this today...just a little more tempered.

As a kid, my friends listened to pop/bubble gum stuff and when we went to my house, I played what I liked, as well as what my brother liked and brought home after he heard it in middle and high school. He's about three years older and this was in '66-'72, so I was turned on to a lot of great music. He was also into classical and I got to hear what was grabbing his ear (standard repertoire, as well as early music). Personally, I lean toward Jazz more than Classical, but I enjoy most music with the exceptions of Rap and Hip-Hop. Those don't do it, for me.

I'm listening to Low Spark on vinyl at the moment and some of it sounds like I'm in the same room.

I grew up on classical music and German folk music because of my immigrant parents. I remember my older brother by 9 years playing Led Zeppelin 1, "Communication Breakdown" . I was hooked immediately with the rawness and power of the sound and thus began my slippery decent into the world of rock music. I blame Chich & Chong for getting me hooked on the blues.

 

[3db]

You should always use the Dust Bug dry.

I always did, I just wanted to state that I bought an original Dust Bug and not an imitation. I will look for a rubber mat. Any suggestions???

Have you had a chance to use it yet?

 

[Johnny2Bad]

Some interesting points raised in this thread.

I think you have a handle on your turntable purchase, so I won't chime in there.

"Cogging" refers to a phenomena of DC Direct Drive turntables, where the magnetic strength that causes movement from one pole to the next varies. A typical DC turntable motor has 24 poles, so the platter is pulled 24 times per revolution.

Servo control and Quartz Crystal regulation mitigates this phenomena, which is essentially why Matsushita's (parent of Technics) technology of the 1970's became the de-facto standard for DC motor technology. Prior to that, direct drive motors experienced noticeable cogging, both audible and visible on a strobe wheel.

This is reflected in the wow & flutter specification; belt drive or idler wheel turntables are susceptible to wow (long term speed fluctuation) but have minimal flutter, while DC direct drive tables have near-zero wow but measurable flutter (short term speed fluctuation) in comparison to belt drive. The flutter is caused by the nature of DC DD to "cog".

You can still see the effect if you ever see, say, an SL-1200 and an SP-10 side-by-side. The SP-10 (Technics' flagship DD transport) has a much steadier strobe.

Heavier platters are one way to minimize both wow and flutter.

As it turns out, a Quartz Locked Servo DC DD motor's specification, again due to the nature of the drive method, for wow and flutter is lower than a belt drive's specification. But, as explained above, it's the nature of the speed variation that defines the overall sound of each technology.

AC motors are inherently smoother than DC motors (AC motors have high torque, and generate maximum torque at lower speeds, also noting that a turntable rotation speed is low), which is why the Denon AC Direct Drive (also Quartz locked servo technology) is regarded by some (myself included) as the superior Direct Drive system. Another factor that made Denon's excellent speed control work (miniscule wow, lower flutter than Matsushita's system) was that Denon read the speed of the platter directly via a magnetic band on the outside edge of the underside of the platter, which was read by what was essentially a magnetic tape head mounted near the band.

A Matsushita system reads a voltage difference on the motor, which is certainly effective, but is an indirect read of the platter's speed, subject to error in calibration, for example. It is in effect a feedback system somewhat similar to Negative Feedback in an amplifier circuit, rather than a directly reading/correction system like the Denon AC system.

However Denon's tables were always more expensive than Technics (or any other manufacturer's, since Matsushita licensed the technology to most Japanese manufacturers). Denon did not license their system to anyone else.

Note as well that Denon still made a AC DD turntable (recently discontinued but still available as New Old Stock), the DP-500M, but was only sold in Japan. Since Japan is a 100V Power System, you need a correcting transformer to use it on a North American 120V Power Grid. The Denons available here are DC DD models, same as a Technics table.

Like everything else, motor control technology has evolved into the 21st century, which is one reason why such excellent turntables are available today at prices that, accounting for inflation, are a fraction of what you had to pay back in the 1970's.

A modern DC motor with modern speed control on a belt drive table is a great option, but AC-synced motors are still used and also work well, although if your power utility does not sync to 50 or 60 Hz well, speed variation will result (table will play fast or slow in reference to 33.3 RPM, for example). This is mitigated if an AC motor control system creates it's own 50 or 60 Hz sync (essentially similar to a power regenerator, eg those sold by PS Audio).

 

[Johnny2Bad]

With regard to platter materials, and turntable mats, there really is nothing anyone can offer in the way of advice unless they have direct experience with the same turntable, the platter(s) in question (eg MDF, Glass, Acrylic, etc) and the mat in question.

I can say from experience these things do matter, and different mats (for example) offer different sound. The problem is the differences are rarely across-the-board; some aspect may improve while another may suffer. You really have to experiment and come to your own conclusions as to which you prefer.

As to the why, consider that for almost every device we use for audio, everything starts with the power supply which is modulated in some way to produce an analog audio signal. Thus (and I don't know anyone who would seriously argue this point) power supply quality is a significant factor in the sound quality of practically everything ... Disk Players, Preamplifiers, Power Amplifiers, DACs, etc.

Not so with a turntable system. The cartridge itself generates an electrical signal directly ... it is it's own power supply and is directly modulated by the LP grooves. Thus any vibration that reaches the stylus and motor assembly of a cartridge will also generate an audio signal.

Since the platter and mat have a direct effect on resonance control, again, you can't seriously argue they do not have an effect on sound quality.

Note that there is one other device we normally listen to that generates it's own electrical signal ... a microphone.

I will leave it to the reader to contemplate if, for example, a vocalist on a recording and a turntable have more in common than a recorded voice and a computer, or a disk player, and a DAC, all with their own power supplies of varying quality (power supplies are expensive, so they directly affect the retail price of all of those supporting devices).

Note as well that in many recordings and live concerts, guitars and other instruments are mic'd as well (the bass guitar is often plugged directly into the console in the studio).

Throw in that most studio mic preamps are vacuum state based (although it does, to my ears, affect sound quality, they are not chosen primarily for that reason. It's because small signal tubes are more linear than solid state devices and have tremendous, low distortion overload characteristics, exactly what you need in a mic preamp) and then think about how vinyl sounds more realistic than digital (to some., myself included).

 

[highfigh]

Note that there is one other device we normally listen to that generates it's own electrical signal ... a microphone.

I will leave it to the reader to contemplate if, for example, a vocalist on a recording and a turntable have more in common than a recorded voice and a computer, or a disk player, and a DAC, all with their own power supplies of varying quality (power supplies are expensive, so they directly affect the retail price of all of those supporting devices).

Note as well that in many recordings and live concerts, guitars and other instruments are mic'd as well (the bass guitar is often plugged directly into the console in the studio).

Throw in that most studio mic preamps are vacuum state based (although it does, to my ears, affect sound quality, they are not chosen primarily for that reason. It's because small signal tubes are more linear than solid state devices and have tremendous, low distortion overload characteristics, exactly what you need in a mic preamp) and then think about how vinyl sounds more realistic than digital (to some., myself included).

OK, what if the digital recording uses the same kinds of mics and mic preamps? Will they not benefit in the same ways?

They aren't chosen for their effect on sound quality? Really? What other reason would there be?

 

[Johnny2Bad]

OK, what if the digital recording uses the same kinds of mics and mic preamps? Will they not benefit in the same ways?

They aren't chosen for their effect on sound quality? Really? What other reason would there be?

The digital version will be the same as the LP version as far as the recording of the performance goes (the LP and Digital versions may be mastered differently; it is also Standard Practice today to separately master a lossy-compressed version, eg mp3).

Sound quality of small-signal tubes and solid state are very similar at "normal" levels; both have low THD + Noise. It would be a mistake to assume every vacuum tube has inherent "euphonic" distortion like a Power Tube tends to have. Small signal tubes sound and measure very cleanly and you would be hard-pressed to distinguish one from a transistor-based mic preamp.

But the overload characteristics are different, and levels during recording can be unpredictable. A tube mic stage may remain clean to many times the standard level (0dBu), while a SS unit might clip much sooner. A Neumann vocal mic has a S/N greater than 130dB.

For example a Manley Mic preamp is ruler-flat to 60 KHz, Less than 0.05% THD, +15dBm and +32dBu overload (depending on impedance). A decent SS mic preamp may clip at +6dBu.

Go back to a recording made before the early 1980's (a very few exceptions starting around the mid 70's) and it would have been recorded to magnetic tape. All tape decks introduce primarily 3rd Harmonic Distortion so any digital file of classic rock for example, would exhibit that sonic signature. The mic preamp is vastly cleaner and isn't responsible for the distortion profile.

But all of that isn't the point I was trying to suggest. The microphone and the cartridge operate on the same principle and both directly read the analog signal and create a voltage, without the need to use a power supply to do so.

 

[highfigh]

The digital version will be the same as the LP version as far as the recording of the performance goes (the LP and Digital versions may be mastered differently; it is also Standard Practice today to separately master a lossy-compressed version, eg mp3).

Sound quality of small-signal tubes and solid state are very similar at "normal" levels; both have low THD + Noise. It would be a mistake to assume every vacuum tube has inherent "euphonic" distortion like a Power Tube tends to have. Small signal tubes sound and measure very cleanly and you would be hard-pressed to distinguish one from a transistor-based mic preamp.

But the overload characteristics are different, and levels during recording can be unpredictable. A tube mic stage may remain clean to many times the standard level (0dBu), while a SS unit might clip much sooner. A Neumann vocal mic has a S/N greater than 130dB.

For example a Manley Mic preamp is ruler-flat to 60 KHz, Less than 0.05% THD, +15dBm and +32dBu overload (depending on impedance). A decent SS mic preamp may clip at +6dBu.

Go back to a recording made before the early 1980's (a very few exceptions starting around the mid 70's) and it would have been recorded to magnetic tape. All tape decks introduce primarily 3rd Harmonic Distortion so any digital file of classic rock for example, would exhibit that sonic signature. The mic preamp is vastly cleaner and isn't responsible for the distortion profile.

But all of that isn't the point I was trying to suggest. The microphone and the cartridge operate on the same principle and both directly read the analog signal and create a voltage, without the need to use a power supply to do so.

Thanks- I was curious because of the way your other post was worded. I use only tube guitar amps (I have one that's solid state, but I haven't used it in many years). The think about small signal tubes is that they can tend to be microphonic and with the current production, the rate of that kind of failure is very high, from some manufacturers. I have a friend who designs/builds guitar effect pedals & repairs amplifiers- he buys tubes by the case. He was seeing so many failures that he ended up building a test jig to find the bad ones, rather than shipping something out with a bad tube that wasn't caught. He was seeing 30%+ failure rate.

Re: how music was recorded- I have looked at the SPARS codes and found it interesting that a decent amount of analog recording was still happening into the '90s.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

I wonder what tube types your friend typically uses. 12AX7, 12AU7, etc are common, especially in the music products I've seen, but most of the better regarded gear whether professional studio types or HiFi use 6922 types. I have also seen guitar effects pedals using sub-miniature types which are typically very microphonic.

The glow is cool, but tube cages work very well at reducing microphonics. Don't hesitate to use them.

Companies in the past would contract for select specification. Since all tubes are tested as they come off production, those that tested best would be pulled and subject to additional tests, and those that met contract spec, instead of the tube fab's logo, would be silkscreened "Fender", "McIntosh", "Dynaco", "Neiumann" etc. or JAN ("Joint Army-Navy) Mil-spec types.

These are the quietest and least microphonic types. If you can find Hammond (Organ) tubes, they had some of the tightest contract requirements in the industry.

It sounds like your friend is having to select from batches of new manufacture, Normal. And it is certainly worthwhile to only buy new manufacture from certain fabs only. I avoid Chinese manufactured tubes. JJ Tesla are reasonably reliable.

As far as I know, the first commercial release recorded and mastered digitally was Ry Cooder's "Bop 'Till You Drop", around '78 or so, (Released on LP, of course, so DDA).