DECENT TURNTABLE WANTED TO BUY

TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Did you ask any local dealers if they would match the price? They should be able to and you would be helping a local dealer.
To me Needle Doctor is a local dealer. For years they were in "Dinky Town" near the U of M. Now they are out on Excelsior Blvd. St Lois Park. They have a store front and are a B & M store.

They have always been good to me, and generally give me a little discount, when I stop by to make a purchase.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
To me Needle Doctor is a local dealer. For years they were in "Dinky Town" near the U of M. Now they are out on Excelsior Blvd. St Lois Park. They have a store front and are a B & M store.

They have always been good to me, and generally give me a little discount, when I stop by to make a purchase.
For some reason, I thought they were somewhere on the East Coast but it's good to see they have a B&M store. I'd like that kind of business make a comeback.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
For some reason, I thought they were somewhere on the East Coast but it's good to see they have a B&M store. I'd like that kind of business make a comeback.
They are not making a comeback. They have been in business as a B & M store since 1989. This is before the .coms!

I have been of from the street customer of theirs since they started.

It is an excellent little company and if you check them out they have zero complaints. Yes, zero. They are a business worthy of everybody's support who is in the market for turntables and cartridges, in fact more so than most local dealers.

Jeff can buy from them with confidence and expect any problem to be correctly, promptly and professionally handled.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
They are not making a comeback. They have been in business as a B & M store since 1989. This is before the .coms!

I have been of from the street customer of theirs since they started.

It is an excellent little company and if you check them out they have zero complaints. Yes, zero. They are a business worthy of everybody's support who is in the market for turntables and cartridges, in fact more so than most local dealers.

Jeff can buy from them with confidence and expect any problem to be correctly, promptly and professionally handled.
I meant, hopefully more B&M audio stores will make a comeback. MPLS seems to be stronger than many places, WRT audio. As I have written many times, I think people need to help their local shops improve when they can, but it's good to see that some are so highly regarded.

Do they sell Dust Bug?
 
ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
Did you ask any local dealers if they would match the price? They should be able to and you would be helping a local dealer.
I don't have any dealers in my area, I would have to travel many miles to get the Project. I will check to see if there any within a reasonable distance. Thanks
 
ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
Jeff can buy from them with confidence and expect any problem to be correctly, promptly and professionally handled.

Thanks Mark, I wish they had a store front in the Pittsburgh area, since they are a B&M I won't hesitate to buy from them.
Mark, do you have any thoughts on the acrylic platter, is there any advantage besides a heavier platter and no need for a mat. I'm making my own record clamp out of a rubber laboratory stopper that is 2" diameter and tapers down. I also still have my Cecil Watts Dust Bug that you reco'd to me so many years ago, I won't spin a record without it.
Jeff
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Jeff can buy from them with confidence and expect any problem to be correctly, promptly and professionally handled.

Thanks Mark, I wish they had a store front in the Pittsburgh area, since they are a B&M I won't hesitate to buy from them.
Mark, do you have any thoughts on the acrylic platter, is there any advantage besides a heavier platter and no need for a mat. I'm making my own record clamp out of a rubber laboratory stopper that is 2" diameter and tapers down. I also still have my Cecil Watts Dust Bug that you reco'd to me so many years ago, I won't spin a record without it.
Jeff
Again Jeff, there is a lot of hype and nonsense with modern turntables.

The bogus theory about acrylics is that resonances produced by the needle in the groove (bogus right there), will be damped because acrylic is like the material the LP is made from, which is vinyl and not acrylic, and that will damp this non existent resonance. All BOGUS, BOGUS and BOGUS.

The same goes for record clamps.

I think you will actually be better off with the stock turntable. Record clamps are more nonsense.

I personally am of the opinion that good vintage turntables rule.

A turntable needs to operate with wow and flutter below the detectable threshold.

A pickup arm needs to be adjustable in all important parameters. It need low friction laterally and vertically. The arm should be as non resonant as possible and rigid.

The difficult area is the resonant product, of arm weight and inertia, cartridge weight and compliance. This is where things get tricky. The compliance of the cartridge its weight and arm inertia, is a classic sprung to unsprung weight problem, just like a car suspension. It really is important to get this right as no record is perfectly flat. In addition getting the sprung to unsprung weight design correct so this resonance falls in the right place. In addition this resonance needs to be damped. In other words a shock absorber is required, just like a car. Practically no arms are damped. The original Decca arms were and the the SME arms can and should be damped. Only Shure put dampers on their top end cartridges.

Stan Kelly back at the dawn of stereo when he designed the Decca ffss maintained that the arm and cartridge should be designed as a unit. He is correct. However this did not happen. Eventually Decca was force to go from this to this.



To this for reason of market forces.



What this boils down to, is that low mass high compliance cartridges require low mass low inertia arms and heavier, lower compliance cartridges require more massive arms.

In their hey day the Shure V15 series were very popular. The SME series three arms were optimized for these cartridges. The damper was synergistic with the damper on the cartridge.

I will post the SME series III picture again, so you can see the damper.



The curved bath is filled with silicone fluid, and there is a paddle at the back of the tone arm that goes into the fluid bath. There are paddles of various widths that can be changed for cartridges of different weights and above all compliance.

The brush on the front of this Shure V 15 xmr is actually a shock absorber called a damper and is synergistic with the silicone bath damper.

It is proven sound engineering solutions like this that create excellence in LP reproduction and not the BS of Audiophools.

A Shure V15 xmr on an SME series III arm with damper installed mounted on a good turntable provides unsurpassed LP reproduction on all discs. If the disc has significant warpage, then this combination leaves all other systems way in the dust.

It is no wonder that when a decent turntable, with an SME series III arm and Shure V15 xmr fetches an out of sight price when they rarely come up. Pretty much no one with this combination is going to part with it, except under severe duress.

I have listened to turntables costing as much as a luxury car, but they perform worse than the system I outlined, which addresses the real problems and issues of LP reproduction and not imaginary ones.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I meant, hopefully more B&M audio stores will make a comeback. MPLS seems to be stronger than many places, WRT audio. As I have written many times, I think people need to help their local shops improve when they can, but it's good to see that some are so highly regarded.

Do they sell Dust Bug?
They sell useless modern imitations of the Dust Bug. If you want a genuine Cecil E Watts Dust Bug, then you need to watch eBay. They still come up periodically. I can not recommend them enough.
 
ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
Mark,
Thank you so much for all that you do to answer questions. Brian contacted me from The Needle Doctor and said he would sell me the Project debut Carbon DC with acrylic platter for $499. Now that I know that the acrylic platter is more BS I will get the basic Project. I know the supplied mat is garbage, do you think a cork slip mat is the way to go? By the way I do have the original Cecil Watts Dust Bug I bought several years ago on your recommendation from Ebay, it had the dried up fluid container that came from the original.
Jeffrey
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Mark,
Thank you so much for all that you do to answer questions. Brian contacted me from The Needle Doctor and said he would sell me the Project debut Carbon DC with acrylic platter for $499. Now that I know that the acrylic platter is more BS I will get the basic Project. I know the supplied mat is garbage, do you think a cork slip mat is the way to go? By the way I do have the original Cecil Watts Dust Bug I bought several years ago on your recommendation from Ebay, it had the dried up fluid container that came from the original.
Jeffrey
I think any quality mat is fine. Any mat should grab the record and be cleanable. They all pick up dust. It might be hard to see on cork. I don't know what is wrong with a rubber mat. That is what I always used.

You should always use the Dust Bug dry.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
I think any quality mat is fine. Any mat should grab the record and be cleanable. They all pick up dust. It might be hard to see on cork. I don't know what is wrong with a rubber mat. That is what I always used.

You should always use the Dust Bug dry.
Rubber mats are fine.

I really think the felt mat came in due to DJs spinning/scratching records. The felt mat lets the record slip when you hold onto it for scratching and matching beats.

The felt mat that came with my Pro-Ject is junk. It's like going to the fabric store and choosing the cheapest, flimsiest felt that you can possibly find. It doesn't like to lay flat and tried to come up with the record.

I bought the cork mat to replace that. I have never really used cork until now. So far, no complaints, but I have not used it extensively yet.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Rubber mats are fine.

I really think the felt mat came in due to DJs spinning/scratching records. The felt mat lets the record slip when you hold onto it for scratching and matching beats.

The felt mat that came with my Pro-Ject is junk. It's like going to the fabric store and choosing the cheapest, flimsiest felt that you can possibly find. It doesn't like to lay flat and tried to come up with the record.

I bought the cork mat to replace that. I have never really used cork until now. So far, no complaints, but I have not used it extensively yet.
I hated the mat on the XPressionII which was also felt (my only complaint of that table) and I was glad they moved to the acrylic platter on the XPressionIII.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
I hated the mat on the XPressionII which was also felt (my only complaint of that table) and I was glad they moved to the acrylic platter on the XPressionIII.
Yup. I guess that's 1 place they cut corners to keep the price down.

Felt mats are not bad in general, it's just the Pro-Ject stock felt mats that are poor quality.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Rubber mats are fine.

I really think the felt mat came in due to DJs spinning/scratching records. The felt mat lets the record slip when you hold onto it for scratching and matching beats.

The felt mat that came with my Pro-Ject is junk. It's like going to the fabric store and choosing the cheapest, flimsiest felt that you can possibly find. It doesn't like to lay flat and tried to come up with the record.

I bought the cork mat to replace that. I have never really used cork until now. So far, no complaints, but I have not used it extensively yet.
Since I don't abuse records and turntables like DJs then all I need is a long lived easily cleanable rubber mat. A little soap and water, thorough rinse and dry off is all that is required.

It seems apparent to me the whole issue of turntables and their ownership has become thoroughly deranged. Problems are now created, bogus remedies for non existent problems and serious known problems left unaddressed. More evidence of modern insanity. Small wonder people are just in wonder and astonished when they hear my vintage turntables.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Since I don't abuse records and turntables like DJs then all I need is a long lived easily cleanable rubber mat. A little soap and water, thorough rinse and dry off is all that is required.

It seems apparent to me the whole issue of turntables and their ownership has become thoroughly deranged. Problems are now created, bogus remedies for non existent problems and serious known problems left unaddressed. More evidence of modern insanity. Small wonder people are just in wonder and astonished when they hear my vintage turntables.
I get the same reaction from people when they hear my modest turntable set up with my modern table.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
I don't think many people today even understand that TTs aren't plug and play. You actually have to set them up and get everything aligned, etc.

I'm not sure that the average consumer understood this during the vinyl hey-day. Nowadays, it is even worse!

With the resurgence of TTs and the general lack of public knowledge, it is a niche where a charlatan could easily capitalize on ignorant consumers. Probably worse than many other segments of the industry right now.
 
adk highlander

adk highlander

Sith Lord
I just picked up a Pro-ject Xperience Basic +. Looking forward to getting it later in the week. I've been using a borrowed Vector Research VT-250 fully auto table. I will have to pay more attention when it gets to the end of a side.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Since I don't abuse records and turntables like DJs
Oh yes, it is abusive.

But wow, some of these guys are incredibly talented. Mind-blowingly talented!!!!

One of the best I've ever seen was Mix Master Mike, also DJ Q-bert.

Youtube some "DMC Championships" and prepare to have your mind blown!

A lot of these DJs are also really into DIY Electronics, and they are using that to really advance the state of electronic music!

I know this isn't your style of music, but there are many interesting mixes out there.
 
ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
You should always use the Dust Bug dry.

I always did, I just wanted to state that I bought an original Dust Bug and not an imitation. I will look for a rubber mat. Any suggestions???
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I just picked up a Pro-ject Xperience Basic +. Looking forward to getting it later in the week. I've been using a borrowed Vector Research VT-250 fully auto table. I will have to pay more attention when it gets to the end of a side.
Congrats :)
 

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