Debate: Floorstanders Vs. Bookshelf

[Shadow_Ferret]

Are floorstanders superior to bookshelf speakers? If so, why? If not, why?

Do floorstanders have an inherent advantage over bookshelfs in deeper bass and fuller midrange or has technological advances pretty much eliminated those things?

I'm just curious because in auditioning speakers I'm often surprised by how full some bookshelf speakers can sound.

For instance, if you had a choice between compariably priced speakers say, Athena AS-F1 and Paridigm Titan, or maybe Polk Audio R50 to say B&W CM2, a floorstander and a bookshelf, which is better?

I don't mean which company do you prefer, I mean what style of speaker is better. Floorstander or bookshelf?

 

[warnerwh]

Speakers are compromises. A good two way can sound better than a poor floorstander that's a 3 way and three times the size. A larger cabinet and woofer will, all else being equal, play lower better and have a superior dynamic range. There's alot to consider and nobody can say for someone else which would be better. My personal opinion is that a large floorstander is the way to go. I like excellent dynamics and listen at some loud listening levels at times. To do that you need a very large speaker to do it well. There's a reason some monitors cost 50 bucks a pair and some cost 2 grand. I'm not saying that sound quality has a direct relationship to price but that there are large differences in sound quality. To play loud you need power and a speaker capable of handling that power without compressing like my VMPS RM 40's. Most people don't need or want what I need and want though.
Also speakers tend to have different strengths and weaknesses, even in the multi kilobuck range so it's really a personal choice. Also aestetics can play a role. So what do you think is better?

 

[wafflebird]

Tough question, Hard answers

When looking at speakers many things need to be considered. As much as I would love to have large floor standing speakers, they will not work for my living room area. While you are right about the advances in technology, it is still more comon that a good quality floor standing speaker will produce "More sound" than a book-shelf speaker. The reason for this is that they usually have more and larger drivers in them than a bookshelf speaker.

Now one thing to consider is the definition of "Bookshelf". Your "Bookshelf" and my "Bookshelf" may be two very different things. If you look at say M&K who make some phenominal speakers (Bookshelf and other) they have some larger bookshelf speakers that would probably make you throw rocks at some companies floor standing models.

The beauty of this whole delima is, you can buy some nice bookshelf speakers and get a really nice sub to accompany them and hey, life is great.

I personally have 4 Mirage Omnisats, a Mirage Omni CC, along with a Velodyne Sub. And it sounds great to say the least.

In the end a good floor standing multi-driver larger coned speaker will in the end produce more sound and have a more powerfull sound when cranked up, due to size and driver size, than a small bookshelf. But I must say I am extremely pleased with my bookshelf set-up.

 

[shokhead]

If i have a good subwoofer then theres no reason for me to get towers. Having said that,the bookshelfs wouldnt be small ones and would be good ones and i would get 4,mains and surrounds.

 

[zumbo]

I would say that a floorstander is superior. But, it looks to me like you are comparing different brands. And then, you ask us not to. So let me make my answer clear. A CM4 will outperform a CM2. But, when you compare one brand floorstander to another brand bookshelf, preference comes into play. I would choose a Paradigm bookshelf over an Athena floorstander, and a B&W bookshelf over a Polk floorstander.

 

[Leprkon]

For the average Best Buy purchaser, there probably is not much difference.

Bookshelves win for WAF, space consumed, "modern" look when paired with decent stands, and bang-for-the buck ( the $ 200 to 600 a pair bookshelf is probably the single most competitive market in audio, in my opinion). as wafflebird metioned, you add a decent quality sub, and you will get some excellent sound.

Floorstanders win for "awe" effect, for total sound output, and in the end, total quality available.

In the end, it's personal priorities (using "Saving Private Ryan" as revenge on the downstairs neighbors for their late-night rap music, trying to stay married, etc) that determine the "best" option.

I use floorstanders in the living room and bookshelves in the bedroom. People who have to deal with WAF or space considerations really don't compromise all that much with bookshelves (notice I did not say "cubes" since that wasn't in the original discussion

 

[slopoke]

I've got a little different take on this.

If the price is equal then a bookshelf will be a better speaker. The reason is simple, there's less material cost to produce a bookshelf than a floorstander. So, equal price = better components for the bookshelf.

That being said, yes, a floorstander can have a better low end. If you're using an AV reciever with the speakers set to small then you won't get anything below about 80 hz anyway. Any decent bookshelf is capable of that. If you set the size to large, then the floorstanders better be able to go all the way down to 20 hz. Let's be honest, can a normal person afford a floorstander that can do that?

The only place I'd recomend a floorstander is in a 2 channel stereo setup with no sub.

 

[nibhaz]

That being said, yes, a floorstander can have a better low end. If you're using an AV reciever with the speakers set to small then you won't get anything below about 80 hz anyway. Any decent bookshelf is capable of that. If you set the size to large, then the floorstanders better be able to go all the way down to 20 hz. Let's be honest, can a normal person afford a floorstander that can do that?

This is true only if your bookshelf is quite capable of going beyond the 80hz cut off point. As you approach the limits of a speaker's frequency range there are often issues of linearity. Usually resulting in a decrease in SPL as you approach this limit, thus if you have a small bookshelf that is only capable of say 75 it might be wise to set the crossover at 90hz in order to maintain linearity across the entire frequency range, however this might lead to being able to “place” the sub as the source of the bass. But as stated if you have a “good” bookshelf that goes well below 80hz then this statement holds up.

 

[HDTV4ME]

I have studio 20's v3,cc470 and adp470's(pw2200 on the way).I have my 20's and cc set for large.My room is 15x19 and I was wondering when I get the sub will he 20's be enough to fill the room?Should I order the 60's?

 

[warpdrive]

I have studio 20's v3,cc470 and adp470's(pw2200 on the way).I have my 20's and cc set for large.My room is 15x19 and I was wondering when I get the sub will he 20's be enough to fill the room?Should I order the 60's?

For 99% of the home theater systems, you should be setting up ALL the speakers to SMALL if you have a sub, even if you have pretty capable floorstanders. Your room is about the same size as mine and I'm running medium sized bookshelves (similar to your 20's) set to SMALL, and I can get deafening levels of sound....so no need to upgrade to the 60's. Since your system is high grade, you might want to try a 60Hz crossover instead of 80Hz. Without a sub, you MUST set all speakers to LARGE

 

[shokhead]

Gota have a nice sub with non-towers{even with towers}. It will just make main speakers better at what they do best,highs and mids with a little easy bass.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Good post Warp. I agree. I decided on towers because I can tell a difference in bass response with my Polk RTi10's with 4 - 7" woofers7 compared to one 12" sub. The sub is great for rock and HT, but the 4 - 7" woofers sound much better with jazz and classical. I play my music loud, and my rear Polk RTi4's cannot handle the bass the front towers do. They sound excellent up to a certain point, but there is no comparison in bass response with the RTi4's and the sub as opposed to my two RTi10's. You won't get the midbass from smaller bookshelves. I have a friend with all bookshelves and two subwoofers. He has one 8" sub and one 12" sub to accomodate all the bass, and they sound excellent. Problem is he spent a lot more than I did trying to get the bass he wanted. Most people aren't this anal about sound, but when you have a cd collection as large as mine, you get picky. My amp sets all speakers to small except my towers, and even then I cross them over at 40hz for HT.

 

[mustang_steve]

I prefer bookshelves myself. Reason being is most shelf speakers can hit reasonably deep, and are fine for smaller rooms. For me, my bedroom and living room are the same 11x14 in size...where floorstanders would just be overkill.

Actually my bookshelves are overkill in this room, so I've had to play with setting them 2 feet from the back wall 2-1/2 feet from the side walls, which helped tighten up the bass slightly.

 

[shokhead]

Good post Warp. I agree. I decided on towers because I can tell a difference in bass response with my Polk RTi10's with 4 - 7" woofers7 compared to one 12" sub. The sub is great for rock and HT, but the 4 - 7" woofers sound much better with jazz and classical. I play my music loud, and my rear Polk RTi4's cannot handle the bass the front towers do. They sound excellent up to a certain point, but there is no comparison in bass response with the RTi4's and the sub as opposed to my two RTi10's. You won't get the midbass from smaller bookshelves. I have a friend with all bookshelves and two subwoofers. He has one 8" sub and one 12" sub to accomodate all the bass, and they sound excellent. Problem is he spent a lot more than I did trying to get the bass he wanted. Most people aren't this anal about sound, but when you have a cd collection as large as mine, you get picky. My amp sets all speakers to small except my towers, and even then I cross them over at 40hz for HT.

You must be in that 1% that has bass capable front main speakers. That would be from what i've read speakers that reproduce down to 20Hz. The other 99% set all speakers to small. My reciever set mine to lg also but i fixed that fast. A good sub setup right and you'll never know its not coming from your main speakers and your speakers will even sound better because of all the stress you relieved them of.

 

[slopoke]

This is true only if your bookshelf is quite capable of going beyond the 80hz cut off point. As you approach the limits of a speaker's frequency range there are often issues of linearity. Usually resulting in a decrease in SPL as you approach this limit, thus if you have a small bookshelf that is only capable of say 75 it might be wise to set the crossover at 90hz in order to maintain linearity across the entire frequency range, however this might lead to being able to “place” the sub as the source of the bass. But as stated if you have a “good” bookshelf that goes well below 80hz then this statement holds up.

I don't think "good" is the proper term that's why I used "decent". I used to use (still own them) a set of Klipsch SB2's and now have a pair of Axiom M22Ti's. There is no comparison of the Klipsch's to the Axioms when it comes to "good". However the Klipsch's were perfectly capable down to 60 hz where the Axioms are really challenged at that frequency.

I also believe (and I'll probably get flack for this) that the room and the position of the sub play a much more important role in being able to "place" the sub than a crossover change from 80 to 100 hz. At least in my room I've got stats that prove this.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

You must be in that 1% that has bass capable front main speakers. That would be from what i've read speakers that reproduce down to 20Hz. The other 99% set all speakers to small. My reciever set mine to lg also but i fixed that fast. A good sub setup right and you'll never know its not coming from your main speakers and your speakers will even sound better because of all the stress you relieved them of.

The front mains are rated:

Driver Complement
Subwoofer 2 - 7" Diameter (17.78cm)
Polymer Composite Cones with Rubber Surrounds
Mid/Woofer 1 - 6-1/2" Diameter (16.51cm)
Polymer Composite Dynamic Balance Cones with Rubber Surrounds
Tweeter 1 - 1" Diameter (2.54cm)
Silk/Polymer composite dome
Electrical
Overall Frequency Response 20Hz-27kHz
66 lbs each

Polk's have always had a "strange" bass note that I just love with jazz. I've tried setting them to small and running the sub, but I don't care for the string/bass with the sub. With rock or house, I'll use the sub and set the cutoff to 80hz. Maybe I need a new sub???

 

[warpdrive]

The front mains are rated:

Driver Complement
Subwoofer 2 - 7" Diameter (17.78cm)
Polymer Composite Cones with Rubber Surrounds
Mid/Woofer 1 - 6-1/2" Diameter (16.51cm)
Polymer Composite Dynamic Balance Cones with Rubber Surrounds
Tweeter 1 - 1" Diameter (2.54cm)
Silk/Polymer composite dome
Electrical
Overall Frequency Response 20Hz-27kHz
66 lbs each

Polk's have always had a "strange" bass note that I just love with jazz. I've tried setting them to small and running the sub, but I don't care for the string/bass with the sub. With rock or house, I'll use the sub and set the cutoff to 80hz. Maybe I need a new sub???

You might want to try other crossover freqs and, but set the speakers to small. The 80Hz is just a general recommendation, people with high grade front ends capable of deep bass might want to try a 40, 50, or 60Hz crossover. Even though your system is rated to 20Hz, you might want to let your relieve your speakers from trying....because most speakers can't really play 20Hz cleanly even if they claim so...but most separate subs can thanks to their design.

 

[zumbo]

You might want to try other crossover freqs and, but set the speakers to small. The 80Hz is just a general recommendation, people with high grade front ends capable of deep bass might want to try a 40, 50, or 60Hz crossover. Even though your system is rated to 20Hz, you might want to let your relieve your speakers from trying....because most speakers can't really play 20Hz cleanly even if they claim so...but most separate subs can thanks to their design.

This is true. I have mine set to small and 60. Big difference in the blend of the sub with the mains. I have to put my head up to my speakers sometimes just to make sure they are not playing all the bass. It sounds as if it is coming from them. I have the sub in the left front corner. And you can get confused about the sound coming from the right front main. It did take a while with placement and set-up to get to this point. All thanks to the people on this site and forum.

 

[shokhead]

Thats right,i have done the same thing,it must be coming from the mains. LOL Yes,important to find the right place to put the sub,corner first. I had mine on 80 but 60 seems to blend better. Dont here very often 40 or 100 used,almost never.Those polks say 20Hz,but like warpdrive,loud and clean is another thing and i belive polk said those were lower limit 35Hz? I would guess after that the db's really start to drop off. Thats what a sub is for. I would try those polks at small and 60 and see. Slopoke,how are those M22ti's? I've read they are very good,detailed speakers. I always thought those with the mains and surrounds and a killer sub would be a great setup.

 

[slopoke]

Slopoke,how are those M22ti's? I've read they are very good,detailed speakers. I always thought those with the mains and surrounds and a killer sub would be a great setup.

I love them. When I first got them I did an extensive A/B comparison with my Klipsh's. I could literally here things in a good recording that weren't even there with the Klipsch. The only down side is their weak base response, but I think that problem is augmented by my room. The highs and the mids one the M22's are awsome.

I'm currently running the M22Ti's for mains, VP150 center, QS8's L/R surround, M2i rear surrounds and a Mirage OM-200 sub.

The OM-200 is a good match with the Axioms as it's designd to work with small satelite speakers and can compensate for the Axioms weak low end without being able to "place" it.

What suprised me the most when getting this setup though was the VP150. That thing is a truely incredible center. Dialog is clear in a way I could never have imangined. I'm more of a music guy and have always thought of the center speaker as sort of a necessary evil. Boy did that opinon change.

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