Danon X4700H, Arcam sa30 and 2 Subwoofers.

[Genchic]

I have a Denon X4700H and I integrated an Arcam SA30 for front Left & Right channels. I have 2 Klipsch subwoofers. Before I integrated Arcam SA30 into the system, the subs were connected to Denon with bass management. This setup does not play subs when I play Vinyl records and CDs which connected directly to the Arcam. I connected subs to Arcam, but now the subs are not active when I play videos, that run through Denon. I am thinking to connect 1 Sub to AVR and one to the integrated amp. Will this be a good idea?

 

[lovinthehd]

Why use that goofy setup with the integrated amp?

 

[TankTop5]

I typed a couple sentences then realized it’s pointless, use one or the other, using both is silly.

 

[Genchic]

I like the arcam 2 channel sound. Especially on low volume. Denon still drives my center channel, when we watch movies. My Denon Blu-ray only has HDMI and RCA out, so I have to use Denon as a preamp for watching/listening Blu-ray disks. I only have Left, Center, Right and 2 subs.

 

[TankTop5]

The Arcam doesn’t have HT bypass so you’re really listening to both pre amps plus the Denon doesn’t shut down the amps so you’re powering 2 amplifier sections for a second amp with about the same specs.

If you think you like the ‘sound’ of the Arcam you can download the Audessey app and EQ it to your liking.

 

[TLS Guy]

I like the arcam 2 channel sound. Especially on low volume. Denon still drives my center channel, when we watch movies. My Denon Blu-ray only has HDMI and RCA out, so I have to use Denon as a preamp for watching/listening Blu-ray disks. I only have Left, Center, Right and 2 subs.

In your imagination. You really have gone to a lot of trouble to downgrade your sound. We get this BS continually and its tiresome.

If you want to improve your system, ditch the Arcam. Simple!

 

[Genchic]

You are right about using them both as a preamp for subs, for 2 channel the Denon works as preamp and Arcam as an amp, and for vinyl/CD I only use Arcam. It has much better MM preamp built in than Denon, IMO. I want to get subs to be more involved in movies. And the real reason I am doing that "goofy" setup: I live in an appartment building and can't realy listen to my music loud enough to get all the colors out of it with Denon along. Arcam is doing a little better job in lower volume. I'm not "married" to Arcam sa30. It is still within a return period. What would be your advice?

 

[TankTop5]

You are right about using them both as a preamp for subs, for 2 channel the Denon works as preamp and Arcam as an amp, and for vinyl/CD I only use Arcam. It has much better MM preamp built in than Denon, IMO. I want to get subs to be more involved in movies. And the real reason I am doing that "goofy" setup: I live in an appartment building and can't realy listen to my music loud enough to get all the colors out of it with Denon along. Arcam is doing a little better job in lower volume. I'm not "married" to Arcam sa30. It is still within a return period. What would be your advice?

Return the Arcam. I think you need to adjust settings on the Denon, forget which it is for lower level listening but someone else will chime in

 

[Genchic]

Thank you for your suggestions. May be you're right about "my imagination." I still have time to play around with it.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

 

[TLS Guy]

You are right about using them both as a preamp for subs, for 2 channel the Denon works as preamp and Arcam as an amp, and for vinyl/CD I only use Arcam. It has much better MM preamp built in than Denon, IMO. I want to get subs to be more involved in movies. And the real reason I am doing that "goofy" setup: I live in an appartment building and can't realy listen to my music loud enough to get all the colors out of it with Denon along. Arcam is doing a little better job in lower volume. I'm not "married" to Arcam sa30. It is still within a return period. What would be your advice?

My advice is that your current setup is just bad engineering. RIAA equalization is actually a very simple circuit and there is no "magic" involved. So, I find it hard to believe that the Denon does not follow the RIAA curve correctly.

However, if you really think there is then your correct engineering solution is to buy an external RIAA preamp, and connect it to an AUX input on the DENON. The answer is not this nightmare of a cockamany scheme you have put together.

Unfortunately the self opinionated Audiophool press peddle this sort of nonsense and the technically ignorant just fall for it over and over again.

Lastly I would say some self appointed expert 'twot's opinion counts for nothing. Hard data does. So, I say show me the data. In this case it would be that the Denon actually significantly deviates from the RIAA curve, has higher noise, distortion or issues of that nature. However, I bet it does not, as the cost will be the same if you do it correctly or screw it up.

 

[isolar8001]

Thank you for your suggestions. May be you're right about "my imagination." I still have time to play around with it.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

Play with Dynamic EQ/Volume on the Denon while you are at it if you haven't...it's for better low volume performance.
Did you run Audyssey ? You can use it for non surround systems also.
(use the Audyssey seperate app...you can do curves easily there)

 

[Genchic]

Play with Dynamic EQ/Volume on the Denon while you are at it if you haven't...it's for better low volume performance.
Did you run Audyssey ? You can use it for non surround systems also.
(use the Audyssey seperate app...you can do curves easily there)

I got the Audyssey app. I need to rerun it again. I read about Dirac live, I have not played with it yet.

 

[Genchic]

My advice is that your current setup is just bad engineering. RIAA equalization is actually a very simple circuit and there is no "magic" involved. So, I find it hard to believe that the Denon does not follow the RIAA curve correctly.

However, if you really think there is then your correct engineering solution is to buy an external RIAA preamp, and connect it to an AUX input on the DENON. The answer is not this nightmare of a cockamany scheme you have put together.

Unfortunately the self opinionated Audiophool press peddle this sort of nonsense and the technically ignorant just fall for it over and over again.

Lastly I would say some self appointed expert 'twot's opinion counts for nothing. Hard data does. So, I say show me the data. In this case it would be that the Denon actually significantly deviates from the RIAA curve, has higher noise, distortion or issues of that nature. However, I bet it does not, as the cost will be the same if you do it correctly or screw it up.

What do you mean by RIAA curves? "Recording Indastry Associatin of America." They protect artists and musicians rights, as far as I know, and have nothing to do with the equipment, unless it means something else that I don't know. Pardon my ignorance. Curves mean very little to me that are done by somebody else. Only curves that matter, which are done in my room, where I listen to music and watching TV. The only tool I currently worked with that gives me my room curves is Audyssey. I like the sound of Arcam, and if I can fine-tune my Denon to sound as good, I'll dich the Arcam. My goal is to make my 2 channel stereo sound good when played at a low volume, let say (-20) in Denon 's volume scale. My idea was, if I drive left and right channel with a ceparate amplifier, they will get dedicated power and will sound cleaner at lower volume. I was debating between an amp and integrated amp, and decided to go with Arcam integrated, just in case if one of the devices goes bad, as it happened in the past, I still have a backup. Kinda killing 2 birds in one shot.

 

[Trebdp83]

Curious, what is the model of TV in use here? Blu-ray player? Klipsch subwoofers?

 

[TLS Guy]

What do you mean by RIAA curves? "Recording Indastry Associatin of America." They protect artists and musicians rights, as far as I know, and have nothing to do with the equipment, unless it means something else that I don't know. Pardon my ignorance. Curves mean very little to me that are done by somebody else. Only curves that matter, which are done in my room, where I listen to music and watching TV. The only tool I currently worked with that gives me my room curves is Audyssey. I like the sound of Arcam, and if I can fine-tune my Denon to sound as good, I'll dich the Arcam. My goal is to make my 2 channel stereo sound good when played at a low volume, let say (-20) in Denon 's volume scale. My idea was, if I drive left and right channel with a ceparate amplifier, they will get dedicated power and will sound cleaner at lower volume. I was debating between an amp and integrated amp, and decided to go with Arcam integrated, just in case if one of the devices goes bad, as it happened in the past, I still have a backup. Kinda killing 2 birds in one shot.

This was the curve agreed on by RIAA in 1948 to optimize the signal to noise ratio of playing vinyl records
It boosts the high end in record and does the reverse on playback.

It was well and good as in the days of 78s each company had it won curve, which was chaos.

Here is my vintage 78 rig with the various playback curves.

Here are the codes.

For magnetic tape it remained chaotic, with NAB, CCIR and DIN recording curves. I think there may have been a few others as well.

So the RIAA pre-empted that when Columbia issued their first LPs.

If you want different amps then a receiver/Integrated amp combo is a match made in Hell. If you want different amplification, then you need a power amp connected to the preouts of the receiver.

Just dump the BS you have been fed by lunatics unknown and put together a system that is properly organized and not a cluster you know what.

 

[Genchic]

This was the curve agreed on by RIAA in 1948 to optimize the signal to noise ratio of playing vinyl records
It boosts the high end in record and does the reverse on playback.

It was well and good as in the days of 78s each company had it won curve, which was chaos.

Here is my vintage 78 rig with the various playback curves.

Here are the codes.

For magnetic tape it remained chaotic, with NAB, CCIR and DIN recording curves. I think there may have been a few others as well.

So the RIAA pre-empted that when Columbia issued their first LPs.

If you want different amps then a receiver/Integrated amp combo is a match made in Hell. If you want different amplification, then you need a power amp connected to the preouts of the receiver.

Just dump the BS you have been fed by lunatics unknown and put together a system that is properly organized and not a cluster you know what.

Wow! I sincerely appreciate this aducational piece of Information. In 1978 I was in a totally different part of the world, behind an iron curtain, and ofcause never heard of a RIAA, and what they do.

 

[Trebdp83]

I am picturing a small apartment with Front Speakers placed too closely together and a Center Channel Speaker that may as well not be there. IF the TV in use here supports ARC/eARC, I’d connect the blu-ray player directly to it and then connect the TV to the ARCAM using their respective ARC/eARC ports. That’s right, I’d lose the Denon if you already like the sound from the ARCAM for music using the subs.

A Stereo setup with properly placed speakers and subs will do nicely even for movies. When using 3.1 with Dolby signals and processing, Dolby Dialogue Offset and the Loudness Management that is ON by default in the Denon can be an annoyance. The ARCAM is a PCM 2.0 affair. So, when using ARC/eARC, set the TV audio output setting to PCM output and it will send a PCM 2.0 signal out to the ARCAM regardless of its input signal from an externally connected device.

Some may be understandably skeptical of such an idea but give it a try. Toe in the Front speakers as needed for center imaging at the main listening position. I’d be surprised if dialogue is not improved here with a proper Stereo setup compared to a 3.1 configuration using the Denon and Dolby processing of Dolby signals. Experiment with it and have fun!

 

[Swerd]

However, if you really think there is, then your correct engineering solution is to buy an external RIAA preamp, and connect it to an AUX input on the DENON. The answer is not this nightmare of a cockamany scheme you have put together.

I fully agree with TLS Guy. The RIAA equalization curve has operated as a de facto global industry standard for vinyl record recording & playback since 1954.

Several years ago, I owned an AVR that lacked a phono preamp. TLS Guy recommended I get an Audio Technica PEQ3. I still use it now, even though I now own a Denon AVR-X4500H which does have an internal phono preamp, probably the same as yours. I did compare the AT-PEQ3's "sound quality" with that of the Denon internal preamp, and I heard no difference. I use the AT-PEQ3 now only because it was simpler for me to leave it in place than it was to remove it.

A few years ago Audio Technica stopped selling the PEQ3 in North America. But they still make it and sell it in Japan and probably elsewhere in Asia. It is available through ebay for about $70. I highly recommend it. There is no need for or benefit from spending $200-$500 or more for a stand alone phono preamp – despite what you may read online.

 

[Genchic]

I am picturing a small apartment with Front Speakers placed too closely together and a Center Channel Speaker that may as well not be there. IF the TV in use here supports ARC/eARC, I’d connect the blu-ray player directly to it and then connect the TV to the ARCAM using their respective ARC/eARC ports. That’s right, I’d lose the Denon if you already like the sound from the ARCAM for music using the subs.

A Stereo setup with properly placed speakers and subs will do nicely even for movies. When using 3.1 with Dolby signals and processing, Dolby Dialogue Offset and the Loudness Management that is ON by default in the Denon can be an annoyance. The ARCAM is a PCM 2.0 affair. So, when using ARC/eARC, set the TV audio output setting to PCM output and it will send a PCM 2.0 signal out to the ARCAM regardless of its input signal from an externally connected device.

Some may be understandably skeptical of such an idea but give it a try. Toe in the Front speakers as needed for center imaging at the main listening position. I’d be surprised if dialogue is not improved here with a proper Stereo setup compared to a 3.1 configuration using the Denon and Dolby processing of Dolby signals. Experiment with it and have fun!

The speakers are 12 feet apart with the center channel in between. Not that small.

I am picturing a small apartment with Front Speakers placed too closely together and a Center Channel Speaker that may as well not be there. IF the TV in use here supports ARC/eARC, I’d connect the blu-ray player directly to it and then connect the TV to the ARCAM using their respective ARC/eARC ports. That’s right, I’d lose the Denon if you already like the sound from the ARCAM for music using the subs.

A Stereo setup with properly placed speakers and subs will do nicely even for movies. When using 3.1 with Dolby signals and processing, Dolby Dialogue Offset and the Loudness Management that is ON by default in the Denon can be an annoyance. The ARCAM is a PCM 2.0 affair. So, when using ARC/eARC, set the TV audio output setting to PCM output and it will send a PCM 2.0 signal out to the ARCAM regardless of its input signal from an externally connected device.

Some may be understandably skeptical of such an idea but give it a try. Toe in the Front speakers as needed for center imaging at the main listening position. I’d be surprised if dialogue is not improved here with a proper Stereo setup compared to a 3.1 configuration using the Denon and Dolby processing of Dolby signals. Experiment with it and have fun!

Left and right speakers are 12 feet apart with center channel in between. My TV does not have ARC/eARC. I also suspect my Denon may have a defect in the amplifier circuits. It was repaired when it was still under warranty. I will do a complete reset to it and rerun Audyssey, may be it'll help. It sounds good as a preamp through the Arcam running front 2 channels. 2 subs are connected to the preouts in Arcam and work great with vinyl and CDs that connected directly to Arcam. I only run Amazon stick and blu-ray through the Denon preamp. And center channel in this case is ran by the denon as well. Only thing I'm missing when watching Amazo /Blu-ray is the LFC from Denon.

 

[TLS Guy]

The speakers are 12 feet apart with the center channel in between. Not that small.

Left and right speakers are 12 feet apart with center channel in between. My TV does not have ARC/eARC. I also suspect my Denon may have a defect in the amplifier circuits. It was repaired when it was still under warranty. I will do a complete reset to it and rerun Audyssey, may be it'll help. It sounds good as a preamp through the Arcam running front 2 channels. 2 subs are connected to the preouts in Arcam and work great with vinyl and CDs that connected directly to Arcam. I only run Amazon stick and blu-ray through the Denon preamp. And center channel in this case is ran by the denon as well. Only thing I'm missing when watching Amazo /Blu-ray is the LFC from Denon.

If you want another amp instead of the receiver amps, then using an integrated amp is not the way to go about it. What you need is a power amp connected to the preouts of the receiver. That is the proper way to do it.