Custom Power Cord Question

[fmw]

Brett, since you don't believe in the scientific method, I have no more to add. If you think opinion and belief trumps scientific investigation and that scientific investigation is beliefs rather than facts then we aren't even reading from the same book on the same planet. Do the bias controlled tests for yourself.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
Have established that buying a power cable for 30 bucks because it looks good isn't unreasonable.

But that is not what drives these discussions, someone stating they bought a power cable for any amount because they look good and looks is very important to that person. That post would get a few comments of approval.
Some go well beyond this and make testable claims for them that just cannot be demonstrated in a credible manner.

 

[Brett A]

Brett, since you don't believe in the scientific method.

I didn't say I didn't believe in the scientific method. I tried to say that I did, but held as something other than the end-all of consideration (or something like that).

We aren't even reading from the same book on the same planet. Do the bias controlled tests for yourself.

Yeh, I think we are reading from different books. And we are on the same planet, but in different worlds. Thanks for your grace. All the best ---Brett

 

[JerryLove]

Science isn't a belief system. As a result of application of the scientific method you may come to hold certain facts as true, but that is not a property of the scientific method. Science holds nothing to be true, merely not to have been proved false yet.

Scientific method relies on logic working. Without logic being true, reasoning goes out the window.

One could argue "it hasn't been proven false", but the word "proof" itself is a logical idea.

Even more than empericism (the belief that our senses are generally accurate in giving us information about reality), logic is a core-prerequsite. Without the belief in logic, science can tell us nothing.

That said, someone who doesn't believe in logic has little reason engaging in a discussion. Even the premise "I put on the new power cable and the sound is better therefore the power cable matters" is logical induction.

Of course, to say "someone who doesn't believe in logic has little reason engaging in a discussion" is, sadly, also logic... and therefore meaningless to someone who doesn't believe in it (or is it? That's logic too... this is confusing).

 

[Brett A]

Science isn't a belief system. As a result of application of the scientific method you may come to hold certain facts as true, but that is not a property of the scientific method. Science holds nothing to be true, merely not to have been proved false yet.

So by this reasoning, you are saying that one cannot rightfully say "Science has proven x to be true" ?

By contrast a belief system is a series of facts you hold to be truths.

Beliefs don't have to be based of facts. Often beliefs are based on faith or assumption. It's likely that billions of people believe there is some kind of god. Are there any facts to support there is one? none that I'm aware of.
Also, I believe the light light goes out in my fridge when I close the door. Can I say it does as a matter of fact? No. I've never been in there when the door was closed.

 

[markw]

Inductive vs. deductive reasoning?

"But the key word is "discovery." With induction something can be discovered but not proven.

The general flow of events is like this: a)make observations b)form conclusions from empirical data c)prove conclusions with deductive reasoning. So if I notice that all triangles I come across have 180 degrees, through inductive reasoning I may form a hypothesis that *all* triangles have 180 degrees. But now that inductive reasoning has pointed me in the right direction, deductive reasoning allows me to prove my hypothesis as fact. There is just too much data out there to gather, to just go around blindly using deductive reasoning. Induction allows us to mine the data, and points out significant bits of information. From there we can prove things and form hard facts."

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1111400

Please note that while inductive reasoning may, just may, point to a discovery, it logically follows that deductive reasoning is needed to prove the theory. If it can't be done, then it remains an unproven theory, not a proven fact.

And, in this day and age, we are pretty much able to measure anything we want and, if that's not enough, that old bugaboo, A/B testing should be able to prove whatever we believe as far as hearing is concerned. To deny that is looking for monsters (NOT the cables) under the bed.

 

[fmw]

Beliefs don't have to be based of facts. Often beliefs are based on faith or assumption. It's likely that billions of people believe there is some kind of god. Are there any facts to support there is one? none that I'm aware of.
Also, I believe the light light goes out in my fridge when I close the door. Can I say it does as a matter of fact? No. I've never been in there when the door was closed.

Of course. Beliefs are always based on faith or assumption or even observation as we're discussing here. I tend to believe that, if I read in the paper that a building burned down, that it really did burn down. I don't feel the need to travel to see for myself. Newspapers tend to report the truth whenever there aren't any political or other self serving factors involved.

The problem here is that science has disproven that power cords are audible in a audio system. So it isn't an assumption or belief any longer. It is a tested and verified fact. If you encounter an audible difference in power cords, the source of that is within you, not within the power cords.

And science has proven how the sonic differences can and do originate within you- and everyone else. So the reality is that the sonic difference is an assumption, a preference, a bias. It has nothing at all to do with the power cords themselves. Science has nailed it down. There is no longer a question about it. You just need accept it.

It's OK to like power cords and it's OK to buy them and enjoy them. What is not OK is attacking the scientific method because it didn't arrive at the conclusion you wanted.

 

[Cthulhu]

So by this reasoning, you are saying that one cannot rightfully say "Science has proven x to be true" ?

This is the case. You can say science has proven X to be false (as is the case with, say, audible difference in power cords ), but not the reverse.

To see that in action, consider newtons laws vs Einsteins. Newtons equations were 'proved' to be true, and it required significantly more sophisticated experiment to demonstrate that they are false and that einsteins model more correctly simulates the situation.

Beliefs don't have to be based of facts. Often beliefs are based on faith or assumption. It's likely that billions of people believe there is some kind of god. Are there any facts to support there is one? none that I'm aware of.
Also, I believe the light light goes out in my fridge when I close the door. Can I say it does as a matter of fact? No. I've never been in there when the door was closed.

If it would aid clarity my sentence could be more correctly restated as 'a belief system is a series of statements you hold to be truths.'

The scientific method itself has nothing to say about 'truth' though one may hold that it can reveal truths.

You can actually say it as a matter of fact incidentally, I presume you own some sort of personal video recording device, or even something that is materially effected by exposure to light.

 

[Rickster71]

This type of cable discussion reminds me, of women with, and without makeup.

This link shows pictures of 42 actresses with makeup, side by side, without makeup.
http://tuvida.aol.com/moda-y-belleza/fotos/stars-without-make-up
The difference is subjective. It's the same women inside, though the 'outer packaging' is improved.
Granted, she looks better. Do these improved looks translate into improved function?
Does the outer facade really make her a better person, a better women? Just because they look better with makeup, doesn't mean they are functionally, or intellectually better than the same women without makeup.

As when people compare a stock power cord to an $80 or $800 cord.
Does the advertising hype, the velvet lined box, the cool looks, or the high price, mean the cable is really better than stock?

 

[Alex2507]

Does the advertising hype, the velvet lined box, the cool looks, or the high price, mean the cable is really better than stock?

Maybe not with the cables but in the case of some of those women? ABSOLUTELY!!!

 

[Adam]

Also, I believe the light light goes out in my fridge when I close the door. Can I say it does as a matter of fact? No. I've never been in there when the door was closed.

Yes, but that belief is something that you could check by getting into the fridge and closing the door. Well, or just manually pushing down the internal light switch. I think that this is the point of doing the wire comparisons. It is something that could (relatively) easily be done to see if you can tell the differences when you compare the wires in quick succession.

My opinion? You think the differences exist, and it's your system and your money. Case closed. You simply provided your experience and suggested that others try it out for themselves. I think that you are only suggesting that others do what they are suggesting to you - try testing the wires. Some have done that and couldn't tell a difference, so they disagree with you. Others have read about studies that have done it, so they disagree with you. Others are content to use "logic" to prove to themselves that you can't possibly be correct and refuse to actually try it.

Everybody has a right to their opinion. How we express those opinions is important to me. For the people here who have been respectful, I applaud you. I think that's what is so great about this forum. As for the heavy-handed "you're an idiot" type comments that I've seen here, I consider that out of line. Also, confidence doesn't equal correctness. There's one poster on here in particular that I've read some very confident posting on his part that was utterly and provably (and proven) wrong, so I take all of his stuff with a grain of salt.

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
Also, I believe the light light goes out in my fridge when I close the door. Can I say it does as a matter of fact? No. I've never been in there when the door was closed.

It may, or it may not
Now that is from first hand experience

 

[Alex2507]

Would getting in your fridge and closing the door to see that the lights go out be like buying an expensive power cord to see that it makes no difference?

What?

 

[santeini]

Rip off

While many fall for this pure rip off, i personally recommend that you pull a separate 4 or 6 mm normal power cable (your electrician will be able to supply it) from your main incoming board to where ever the home theater is. This will yield more improvement than the rip off stuff. Please remember to use the newly pulled supply only for your home theater system only.

 

[hifi_fan]

Well, I'm going to stick myself out here and tell you that I have spent money on after market AC cords. Because, especially with my CD player, they made a subtle but important improvement in sound. I did not spend $8000, but $80 for the amp (from Signal Cable) and $35 for the CDp (a $110 Audioquest NRG-2 off eBay) With the CD player, a Rotel RDC 1070, it deepened the soundstage (made it more 3D) and improved the bass definition and extension. It also allowed the player to extract just a bit more detail. For instance, on track 7 of Freddy Cole's "Music Maestro Please", it made the difference of being able to hear the saliva "tick" in his mouth as he began a new phrase. With the stock cord, that very detail disappears- can't be heard.

And my opinion, which is supported by my experience is that in my system, an after market AC cord can indeed be heard.

OK, I discovered this forum today, and I agree with you. I use Audioquest NRG-5 power cable. The difference compared to a stock cable is huge.

hifi_fan

 

[zhimbo]

An interesting read:

Can We Hear Differences Between AC Power Cords?

 

[hifi_fan]

An interesting read:

To be able to post links or images your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 2 posts.
Please remove links from your message, then you will be able to submit your post.

Can We Hear Differences Between AC Power Cords?

I have no time to read the whole article just now, but here is my reflection to the conclusion:

"Using the blind ABX protocol, we failed to hear any differences between an assortment of generic power cords and Nordost Valhalla."

Oh my god, why couldn't they hear any differences between these cables. Probably they did the test the wrong way, too much time between the cable changes.

"Unfortunately, as John notes, we don't know of a way of accomplishing fast power cable changes, since, unlike interconnects which can be simply switched between A and B with the equipment all still powered on and playing music, changing AC power cords requires turning the equipment off, switching the cords, and then powering them back on."

OK, I understand now. They had the wrong method which takes long time.

It's very easy to change power cable during playing the music with my method. Im using a Musical Fidelity X-Can v8 tube headphone amplifier with Sennheiser HD-600 headphones. I can change the power cable very fast during the playing of the same record, and the difference I can hear immediately. I tested and compared this way Supra LoRad, Van der Hul and Audioquest power cables. There is a big difference between them.

hifi_fan

 

[zhimbo]

Was your testing protocol blind?

 

[hifi_fan]

Was your testing protocol blind?

When I change power cable I can't be blind.

I can connect 2 headphones to this amplifier. My friend had the other headphone and he was blind. The result was the same. The Audioquest cable was the best and it was the dearest too. My friend sade when the cable was the Audioquest. "Please don't change the cable anymore. I hear many new never heard details, a very big deep space, good dynamic, everyting is very musical, I want to hear the music now. Forget about the test, it's over now. You can sell the Supra and the Van den Hul cables."

hifi_fan

 

[Halon451]

Again, I say if you have the opportunity to try an after market AC cords, do it. What have you got to lose?

Apparently a few hundred bucks that could be much better spent on meaningful upgrades?