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Noc662

Audioholic Intern
Hey I need some help trying to understand Crossover Frequency and Frequency Response. So the frequency response of my L/R is 44Hz-35000Hz and my Center is 55Hz-35000Hz. The AVR set the crossover to 120Hz(once I changed it from large to small speakers). How is the subwoofer handling 120Hz if my speakers range is 55Hz to 35000Hz? I thought the point of the crossover being set at 120Hz is for the subwoofer to handle what the speakers can't or you don't it to handle?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
What avr? If your avr set your speakers to large I don't think it set a crossover of 120hz. Are you looking at the LPF of LFE for the subwoofer? That's not a crossover....just a low pass filter for the LFE channel (when there is ".1" content in a source). The normal setting of the LPF of LFE is 120hz as that is the usual limit of content.
 
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Noc662

Audioholic Intern
What avr? If your avr set your speakers to large I don't think it set a crossover of 120hz. Are you looking at the LPF of LFE for the subwoofer? That's not a crossover....just a low pass filter for the LFE channel (when there is ".1" content in a source). The normal setting of the LPF of LFE is 120hz as that is the usual limit of content.
No at large it was set to 80Hz. Here is what I'm looking at.
20180919_024414.jpg
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
When an avr sets a speaker to large that means it isn't using bass management, i.e. no crossover. 80 is a generally advised starting point, tho. What make/model of avr is it?
From his other thread:
AVR Sony STR-DN1080 Speakers ELAC b6.2 L/C/R Subwoofer SVS pb1000
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Hey I need some help trying to understand Crossover Frequency and Frequency Response. So the frequency response of my L/R is 44Hz-35000Hz and my Center is 55Hz-35000Hz. The AVR set the crossover to 120Hz(once I changed it from large to small speakers). How is the subwoofer handling 120Hz if my speakers range is 55Hz to 35000Hz? I thought the point of the crossover being set at 120Hz is for the subwoofer to handle what the speakers can't or you don't it to handle?
2 ways the subwoofer is handling up to 120hz.
As HD mentioned, the .1 carries info from 3hz up to 120hz. This is encoded into the movie soundtrack. The only thing you can do to this is lower how high the lpf is. For example if localization is a problem with .1 sound effects, you can lower the lpf to help minimize localization.
Secondly, no matter what the FR of your speakers is, if they’re set to small, they will only play what is above the XO point. Everything below is sent to the subwoofer. I’m surprised it set them to 120 considering the f3.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
That receiver has a dreadful user manual. No mention of being able to send bass to sub and main speakers. So I assume you can't.

I think the unit has set the crossover wrong. Audyssey did that to me with the center channel. It set the center to small and set the crossover ridiculously high. I showed with measurement that the Baffle Step compensation had to be excessive to not case this to happen. On my front three speakers I can continuously vary the BSC because of the unique design. If BSC was set correctly as precise measurement and listening dictated, then Audyssey made a complete mess of the set up which sounded indescribably bad.

So if some one can figure out how to help the OP, shout. From those awful and highly inadequate manuals I have no idea.
 
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Leemix

Audioholic General
Have you run the auto setup more then the one time? Often a good idea to try again if it gives wonky results. Also run it when its fairly quiet for a good result. You should probably be at about 80-100 crossover for The front 3 speakers.


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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I have found a better instruction manual here. Not good, but better. This is not the one on the Sony receiver site.

Strangely they recommend setting all speakers to large, unless they basically complain.

{Select the size you want. Large: If you connect large speakers that will effectively reproduce bass frequencies, select [Large]. Select [Large] usually. Small: If the sound is distorted, or you hear a lack of surround effects when using multi channel surround sound, select [Small]. You can activate the bass redirection circuitry and output the bass frequencies of each channel from the subwoofer or other [Large] speakers.}

There is no mention of being able to send bass to the sub also, but I would not bet that it does not. The OP can check that by setting the speakers to large as Sony recommends and see if there is output from the sub.

Certainly it looks as if Sony have little confidence in their bass management it seems.

If there is output from the sub with the above recommendation please let us know.

This is possibly not as crazy as it sounds, as I am more and more convinced that keeping capable speakers large and sharing bass duties with the sub is actually the best way to go in most cases. To cross speakers over properly you need to design sub and speakers as a unit to perform optimally in partnership. Design the speakers to properly perform with a crossover that is second order LR high pass and fourth order LR low pass. The vast majority of speakers do not meet that criterion and my recent endeavors tell me that is actually a serious problem.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Sony calls their better manuals "help guides" and the one TLS found on his second try is their best one for this model. This model's help guide isn't all that helpful after a look through it. I also don't find the double bass type setting TLS prefers.

@Noc662 were you using the D.C.A.C. function initially then changing settings manually? Were you using the avr's subwoofer low pass setting? More description on how you're getting to each setting might be interesting but personally I'd simply try setting all speakers to "small" and use an 80hz crossover to start, then experiment above and below that crossover to see if you have a preference. I'd leave the subwoofer low pass filter setting at "off".
 
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Noc662

Audioholic Intern
Sony calls their better manuals "help guides" and the one TLS found on his second try is their best one for this model. This model's help guide isn't all that helpful after a look through it. I also don't find the double bass type setting TLS prefers.

@Noc662 were you using the D.C.A.C. function initially then changing settings manually? Were you using the avr's subwoofer low pass setting? More description on how you're getting to each setting might be interesting but personally I'd simply try setting all speakers to "small" and use an 80hz crossover to start, then experiment above and below that crossover to see if you have a preference. I'd leave the subwoofer low pass filter setting at "off".
Honestly I just did want what I read and seen on YouTube. I set my subwoofer (SVS pb1000) frequency knob to LFE and set the mic for the reveicer to do what it do. I did change the speakers from large to small and the distance of the sub from the listening position....it was a few feet off. I left the levels as is because I wasn't sure about them. But I did feel like if I changed the sub distance I probably should have changed the db of the sub . Like I have said time and time again I'm new to all of this, and just want to get a understanding of what's going on behind the screens.
 
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Leemix

Audioholic General
Honestly I just did want what I read and seen on YouTube. I set my subwoofer (SVS pb1000) frequency knob to LFE and set the mic for the reveicer to do what it do. I did change the speakers from large to small and the distance of the sub from the listening position....it was a few feet off. I left the levels as is because I wasn't sure about them. But I did feel like if I changed the sub distance I probably should have changed the db of the sub . Like I have said time and time again I'm new to all of this, and just want to get a understanding of what's going on behind the screens.
Subs often read as further away then they really are due to internal delay from DSP, so the ‘wrong’ reading might be the right one. Try both a bit.

Edit: the volume should be correct as setup with mic listens to get it correct regardless of distance setting.


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Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
That receiver has a dreadful user manual. No mention of being able to send bass to sub and main speakers. So I assume you can't.

I think the unit has set the crossover wrong. Audyssey did that to me with the center channel. It set the center to small and set the crossover ridiculously high. I showed with measurement that the Baffle Step compensation had to be excessive to not case this to happen. On my front three speakers I can continuously vary the BSC because of the unique design. If BSC was set correctly as precise measurement and listening dictated, then Audyssey made a complete mess of the set up which sounded indescribably bad.

So if some one can figure out how to help the OP, shout. From those awful and highly inadequate manuals I have no idea.
With my Marantz SR5010, I manually set the center channel speaker to large as I have three identical bi-amped front speakers. But Odyssey still indicates that the center speaker is small. I haven't really made serious tests to ascertain whether the manual setting overrides the Audyssey indication though.

From your experience, would the manual setting for the center speaker be cancelled when Audyssey is on? If so, is there a way to correct the situation? At present, the AVR crossover is set to 90 Hz for the surround bookshelf speakers.

Edit: I've just checked the speaker configuration and the crossover setting indicates the 3 front speakers as being Full Band with crossover set to 90 Hz for surrounds and surround backs. I may be wrong but I would assume that the manual setting overrides the Audyssey indication even when it's on.
 
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Leemix

Audioholic General
With my Marantz SR5010, I manually set the center channel speaker to large as I have three identical bi-amped front speakers. But Odyssey still indicates that the center speaker is small. I haven't really made serious tests to ascertain whether the manual setting overrides the Audyssey indication though.

From your experience, would the manual setting for the center speaker be cancelled when Audyssey is on? If so, is there a way to correct the situation? At present, the AVR crossover is set to 90 Hz for the surround bookshelf speakers.
Which speakers do you have since you set them to large?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Subs often read as further away then they really are due to internal delay from DSP, so the ‘wrong’ reading might be the right one. Try both a bit.

Edit: the volume should be correct as setup with mic listens to get it correct regardless of distance setting.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Agreed. And yeah the volume shouldn’t change, but I’d double check since the phase relationship will have changed so a previous null/peak might move somewhere else in the FR. Changing the distance setting can also be a good way to better integrate the XO too.
Also, the mic will see the room acoustically. By the time those really long wave lengths travel through the room, and all the stuff in it,(and dsp as mentioned) the timing of them is late. So basically the avr will compensate by (usually) adding a couple feet which basically makes it fire sooner as to match up time wise with the other speakers. Sometimes if someone’s complaining about slow or sloppy bass, adding a few feet(6”to a foot at a time) can help the impulse response to line up.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
With my Marantz SR5010, I manually set the center channel speaker to large as I have three identical bi-amped front speakers. But Odyssey still indicates that the center speaker is small. I haven't really made serious tests to ascertain whether the manual setting overrides the Audyssey indication though.

From your experience, would the manual setting for the center speaker be cancelled when Audyssey is on? If so, is there a way to correct the situation? At present, the AVR crossover is set to 90 Hz for the surround bookshelf speakers.

Edit: I've just checked the speaker configuration and the crossover setting indicates the 3 front speakers as being Full Band with crossover set to 90 Hz for surrounds and surround backs. I may be wrong but I would assume that the manual setting overrides the Audyssey indication even when it's on.
I would not assume that. Audyssey is just plain evil. What I have found is that unless you really lock it out, it wants to return and corrupt your system, like turning Dynamic back on. Why do you need Audyssey anyway? It can only upset a good system.
 
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