Cross over set at 80Hz!..is this the norm?

[clouso]

I was wondering if this is the ''norm'' for most speakers (fronts)....do we need to know how low first the fronts can go...as a matter of fact my studio 60v5 are rated at 29Hz and my cross over on my pioneer is set at 80Hz...should i lower it down to 60Hz maybe??....not sure about all that yet lol.......thx.

 

[sptrout]

I was wondering if this is the ''norm'' for most speakers (fronts)....do we need to know how low first the fronts can go...as a matter of fact my studio 60v5 are rated at 29Hz and my cross over on my pioneer is set at 80Hz...should i lower it down to 60Hz maybe??....not sure about all that yet lol.......thx.

80Hz is the "THX" norm and the norm for most I would say, but even THX is not set in concrete on this. You can go lower if desired, but many times there is no reason to and many reasons not to (if you are using Audyssey for example). You could drop it to 60 and see if you like the results.

 

[GranteedEV]

If your speakers are ported, you don't want to cross them over too low, even if "on their own" they dig deep. What happens is that the sound of the port output doesn't blend well with the sound of the sub and you have a disconnect.

80hz is a good crossover point because it's not localizable. Anything lower IMHO is kind of.. pointless.

 

[jostenmeat]

If your speakers are ported, you don't want to cross them over too low, even if "on their own" they dig deep. What happens is that the sound of the port output doesn't blend well with the sound of the sub and you have a disconnect.

80hz is a good crossover point because it's not localizable. Anything lower IMHO is kind of.. pointless.

My front three are set at 60hz. Would you strongly recommend I raise them to 80hz? My subwoofer is on the opposite/back wall behind listeners.

Audyssey found my 4 surrounds to have a F3 below 80hz, but I still set all of them to 80hz.

 

[clouso]

If your speakers are ported, you don't want to cross them over too low, even if "on their own" they dig deep. What happens is that the sound of the port output doesn't blend well with the sound of the sub and you have a disconnect.

80hz is a good crossover point because it's not localizable. Anything lower IMHO is kind of.. pointless.

Thx GranteedEV i appreciate your answer.. and others too!..

 

[GranteedEV]

My front three are set at 60hz. Would you strongly recommend I raise them to 80hz? My subwoofer is on the opposite/back wall behind listeners.

Audyssey found my 4 surrounds to have a F3 below 80hz, but I still set all of them to 80hz.

As a general rule off the top of my head, for best results with a ported speaker you take the port tuning frequency, add 1.5 octaves to it, and go with a crossover point near there. Or was it .5 octaves? arrgghh.

Either way, the above is oviously difficult to do if you've got a port tuned at 75hz! That's why a tower speaker that can dig down to like 40hz will blend seamlessly with an 80hz crossover while the bookshelf that has F3 at 73hz or whatever will probably sound better crossed at 100 or 120hz even though you can technically cross it at 80hz. Taking port output near tuning frequency out of the mix altogether is the goal... you want your speaker to essentially "act" as a sealed speaker!

 

[jostenmeat]

As a general rule off the top of my head, for best results with a ported speaker you take the port tuning frequency, add 1.5 octaves to it, and go with a crossover point near there. Or was it .5 octaves? arrgghh.

Either way, the above is oviously difficult to do if you've got a port tuned at 75hz! That's why a tower speaker that can dig down to like 40hz will blend seamlessly with an 80hz crossover while the bookshelf that has F3 at 73hz or whatever will probably sound better crossed at 100 or 120hz even though you can technically cross it at 80hz. Taking port output near tuning frequency out of the mix altogether is the goal... you want your speaker to essentially "act" as a sealed speaker!

I wonder what the reasoning is, though thanks for offering what you know.

Perhaps a port cannot handle its own tuning properly unless the signal has become greatly reduced, if only perhaps in relation to a reference level signal?

Or perhaps it's just to reduce the possibility of chuffing? Or impedance issues with an amplifier or something?

1.5 octaves seems extreme, I bet you read .5. I have seen people recommend a full octave before, but never 1.5. Cheers.

 

[Jacksmyname]

Here's an article on bass management from none other than...............
Audioholics!

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good-bass/setting-the-subwoofer-lfe-crossover-for-best-performance

 

[gene]

Audyssey found my 4 surrounds to have a F3 below 80hz, but I still set all of them to 80hz.

Don't trust Audyssey or any room correction system to set crossover points correctly. If you place a surround speaker close to a wall, the boundary gain will cause them to think its a fullrange speaker and set the crossover point too low or set the speaker to "large". Audyssey don't factor in max SPL output a speaker actually has so you will not only be straining that speaker at high SPL but also reducing the chances of best bass blend to the subs.

Read:
Multi Subwoofer Calibration Setup & Tips

PS. Some processors will truncate LFE bass to the sub if you set the Xover too low as well so be mindful of that.

 

[JerryLove]

Don't trust Audyssey or any room correction system to set crossover points correctly. If you place a surround speaker close to a wall, the boundary gain will cause them to think its a fullrange speaker and set the crossover point too low or set the speaker to "large".

Given this, I don't understand why Audessey hasn't given us the flexibility to set crossover manually before running room correction.

 

[Hocky]

Given this, I don't understand why Audessey hasn't given us the flexibility to set crossover manually before running room correction.

...you can set them immediately afterwards, so what is the difference?

My front mains have big output down to 22hz in my room, so I cross them over at 40hz. This provides a bit more of an even response across the room since I only have 1 subwoofer. They blend well regardless of crossover point at the main seating location, though.

 

[zumbo]

With a setting of 80Hz, my bass sounded as if it was coming from the corner the sub was in.

My mains spec 33Hz-32kHz. I use a 60Hz x-over point.

Center specs 50Hz-32kHz. I use 80Hz here.

My LF actually sounds like it is coming from any speaker you walk-up to. Of coarse this took years, yes years of work. However, I believe the 60Hz x-over point has a lot to do with it.

Now if the avr in question only offers one x-over point, I would recommend basing the x-over 20 above the LF specs of the center.

 

[JerryLove]

...you can set them immediately afterwards, so what is the difference?

The difference is that Audyessy apples correction based on the performance of the speakers at the set crossover. If you change the crossover afterward, you loose that correction.

So if Audyessy decides to set the crossover at 120Hz and finds the sub is just right, it will make no corrections. Then you lower the crossover to 80Hz, and there's a 100hz peak in your mains. That will not be corrected by Audyessy now because it was not discovered in calibration.

If Audyessy was forced to 80Hz before running correction: it should catch the 100Hz peak in the mains and smooth it.

 

[zumbo]

What I found was 55 on the cc 590 center. I would recommend 80 there.

If you can do separate on the mains, I would recommend 60 there.

Of coarse, everyone will feel differently. Try it all. Use what you like.

I even ran 60 on my center with my old receiver which only let me set one point. Got a slap from the mids one time. When I got my latest receiver, was able to go with separate x-over points. Set 80 on the center, 60 on the mains, and center never slapped again.

YPAO lets you select x-over and speaker size, then select SKIP in calibration. Ah yes, Yamaha.

 

[jostenmeat]

Given this, I don't understand why Audessey hasn't given us the flexibility to set crossover manually before running room correction.

The difference is that Audyessy apples correction based on the performance of the speakers at the set crossover. If you change the crossover afterward, you loose that correction.

So if Audyessy decides to set the crossover at 120Hz and finds the sub is just right, it will make no corrections. Then you lower the crossover to 80Hz, and there's a 100hz peak in your mains. That will not be corrected by Audyessy now because it was not discovered in calibration.

If Audyessy was forced to 80Hz before running correction: it should catch the 100Hz peak in the mains and smooth it.

Not quite Jerry. Sort of there, but not quite.

Firstly, Audyssey's codes given are all identical. Different brands/models have varying bass mgmt flexibility. So, if one receiver can set xover to 40/50/60/70/80, another at 40/60/80, and yet another only at 80hz or large, do you expect them to write up new coding for every perceivable bass mgmt scenario?

It is the receiver companies that must decide how to implement the results Audyssey gives them. If my Onkyo sets my mains as full range simply because Audyssey finds the F3 to be below 80hz (let's say 52hz for fun), it's not Audyssey's fault that Onkyo decides it will be full range. In fact Audyssey was lobbying with the manufacturers for quite a while on the consumers' behalf, in terms of implementing things better.

You are right that no correction is applied below what Audyssey finds to be the F3. But you can't start your post with the boldfaced portion, because if I raise the xover, I am not loosing any correction! Hence, sort of there, but not quite. Cheers.

 

[JerryLove]

You are right that no correction is applied below what Audyssey finds to be the F3. But you can't start your post with the boldfaced portion, because if I raise the xover, I am not loosing any correction! Hence, sort of there, but not quite. Cheers.

Let's say for argument that Audyssey found your F3 at 60 and you raised it to 100.

Did Audyssey do no correction at 80?

If "no", that seems to be a signifigant oversight.
If "yes" then is calibrated for the mains and you are now using the sub which it is not calibrated for.

Is there some step I'm missing?

You are right that no correction is applied below what Audyssey finds to be the F3. But you can't start your post with the boldfaced portion, because if I raise the xover, I am not loosing any correction! Hence, sort of there, but not quite

sets the proper level trims for all channels including the subwoofer

 

[sholling]

This is actually one of the places that I have a problem with Audyssey. They designed their system to be absolutely inflexible and with no options other than set it and forget it. Basically aiming their product to the lowest common denominator buyer that can't be trusted to do anything on their own. I would like to see them modify the design to either allow you to (optionally) set the crossover before running the auto-setup, or allow you to change the crossover after and then have it recalculate the room correction. Neither are programming rocket science because they are just minor modifications of the existing program.

My other two problems with Audyssey's inflexibility are 1) they do not allow you to tweak Audyssey's EQ settings and 2) at least in Onkyo's implementation you cannot defeat the high frequency roll off - which I believe Denon allows.

 

[jostenmeat]

Let's say for argument that Audyssey found your F3 at 60 and you raised it to 100.

Did Audyssey do no correction at 80?

The calibration information is now there at your disposal. If you select 100hz, and as you might say for argument's sake, let's go with a brick-wall xover. Then you've effectively decided not to use it, plain and simple.

Even without the brick wall, whatever the roll off, the calibration is still there, well at least to down to the "measured" F3.

[strike]If "no", that seems to be a signifigant oversight.[/strike]

If "yes" then is calibrated for the mains and you are now using the sub which it is not calibrated for.

Is there some step I'm missing?

Your question is hurting my head. HUH. stepping away for 5 minutes.

Ok, I'm back. Ok, where to begin. It's calibrating for the particular speaker at the particular position with a particular mic position.

The sub of course has its own particulars. When you speak of bass mgmt, you have to remember that it's more complex in that it's playing both rerouted bass as well as LFE. HOWEVER, it's still a moot point. Because the calibration is for the particular speaker (ahem sub) at the particular position with the particular mic position.

Wherever the source material may have been derived from is immaterial to the speaker's calibration.

Why do I have this sinking feeling there is something lost in translation?

Hmm. previewing post. Ok, I think I'm making sense right now? Ok, I have the perfect question for you, or so I hope:

How could a single stereo speaker/calibration possibly know it's NOT supposed to calibrate for center speaker material when it's working as a phantom stereo setup?

(Right? The source origin is immaterial to the calibration of the speaker . . . ?)

 

[jostenmeat]

This is actually one of the places that I have a problem with Audyssey. They designed their system to be absolutely inflexible and with no options other than set it and forget it. Basically aiming their product to the lowest common denominator buyer that can't be trusted to do anything on their own.

REW, laptops, mics, have been around. No one is twisting your arm. There are enthusiasts here who buy Audyssey enabled products and still choose not to use them.

I don't blame them in their thinking that the more flexibility they gave you, the more it would be all mucked up. That's me included. The technology does stuff that is WAY beyond my knowledge.

That said, I STILL can keep Audyssey engaged, and yet STILL change my xovers, change levels, add other EQ (which I do, like adding deep notch filters with high Q, shelf filter starting at 20hz, etc), and at least we do have target curves to play with. Considering that it's like a freebie with my $600 receiver, it's pretty damn difficult to complain about. Even the super expensive stand alone unit doesn't get you much flexibility, so far as I know, just greater resolution. I don't think ARC1 or Trinnov gets you much better flexibility. I think with ARC1 you can change the HF correction cutoff (but people seemed to keep it higher than expected going by one anecdote), and the Trinnov allowed a 300hz defeat cutoff as an approximation of the typical Schroeder transition frequency with any given room. Tell me how much those techs cost to own, and come back and complain some more about Audyssey!

I would like to see them modify the design to either allow you to (optionally) set the crossover before running the auto-setup, or allow you to change the crossover after and then have it recalculate the room correction. Neither are programming rocket science because they are just minor modifications of the existing program.

To me this it totally moot. Your speaker can only do what it can do. As gene pointed out, the measurement might* be off due to boundary interaction, as in the extreme case of an infinite baffle situation, but c'mon. Why would it want to calibrate for something the speaker can't do anyhow? I am reminded of Bose owners who whined about a 250hz cutoff/xover/calibration.

My other two problems with Audyssey's inflexibility are 1) they do not allow you to tweak Audyssey's EQ settings and 2) at least in Onkyo's implementation you cannot defeat the high frequency roll off - which I believe Denon allows.

I am reluctant to comment here because of my frequent confusion over RE-EQ, but lemme go find sptrout's recent post . . . here you go.

FYI - - From our Audyssey friend, Chris Kyriakakis:

"Audyssey MultEQ creates room correction filters to two specific target curves. One is the Audyssey Reference curve that has a slight roll off in the high frequencies above 10 kHz that has to do with the translation required from a large movie theater to a smaller home listening room. The other is Flat that has no roll off. Some AVR makers decide to give the user a manual choice and others, like Onkyo, make the switch automatically.

Re-EQ is not an Onkyo function, it is part of THX. We recommend using the Flat room correction curve so that the intent of THX Re-EQ is preserved. Onkyo allows you to switch Re-EQ on and off separately from the other THX functions and so you could listen to Audyssey Flat if you turn off Re-EQ.

There is no interaction between the Re-EQ button and Audyssey. If you are in THX mode then you are listening to Audyssey Flat regardless of whether you have Re-EQ engaged. Of course, if you do have it engaged it applies a high frequency adjustment that takes you away from Flat. I recommend using Re-EQ with Audyssey Flat for movie listening. AFAIK, you get Flat with Onkyo. It's just that in stereo mode, with many models of the past, you can't.

There is no way to have Audyssey Flat in Onkyo products without having the THX mode engaged."
http://ask.audyssey.com/entries/93466-audyssey-onkyo-re-eq-button-feature-interaction

By the way, the 805 defaults to Re-EQ "on" when using any THX Mode. If you do not use a THX Mode then the 805 will apply Audyssey's "Reference Curve."

 

[sholling]

REW, laptops, mics, have been around. No one is twisting your arm. There are enthusiasts here who buy Audyssey enabled products and still choose not to use them.

I don't blame them in their thinking that the more flexibility they gave you, the more it would be all mucked up. That's me included. The technology does stuff that is WAY beyond my knowledge.

If you look at the YPAO review you see how auto EQ can in theory thoroughly screw up EQ. So can Audyssey for the same reasons. YPAO leaves the ability to go in and tweak and adjust the EQ settings without starting from scratch. Next time I may actually buy a Yamaha for that reason alone if/when the 906 ever dies.

To me this it totally moot. Your speaker can only do what it can do. As gene pointed out, the measurement might* be off due to boundary interaction, as in the extreme case of an infinite baffle situation, but c'mon. Why would it want to calibrate for something the speaker can't do anyhow? I am reminded of Bose owners who whined about a 250hz cutoff/xover/calibration.

Not all crossover adjustments are down. Audyssey sets my family room mains to full range and turns on doublebass even though the STs are only rated to 40hz. I always raise that crossover to 60hz which of curse throws off Audyssey's calculation. Now wouldn't it be handy to set the crossovers to where they really need to be and let the receiver rerun just the calculation? As for ease of use it's easy to have an normal and expert setup modes on $1000+ receivers. Expert mode would let you set your own crossovers before EQ.

For now I just disable Audyssey's EQ functions.