Criteria for choosing headphones

[warpdrive]

I forgot you are in Scotland. Yes, by all means purchase locally, I'm sure you have other options more close to home for ordering online.

 

[Sheep]

To an extent, yes. If in-ears are able to deliver a similar sound quality to 'no-look' headphones then I'd probably lean that way. I see from Sleestack's link that Shure in-ears (and probably other in-ear manufacturers too) come with a number of different sleeves for various 'fits', so hopefully my concern about in-ears being uncomfortable will be unfounded.

Ra ra ra ra. Don't get Shures. I have the E2C's and the way they designed the cord, makes them hard to fit.

The cord hits your ear, and sometimes pulls out.

Something like this would be better.

SheepStar

 

[WmAx]

I notice that headphone.com reckons a dedicated headphone amp will improve the sound from some models of in-ears. Is this true, or just voodoo? Is it the same argument as more powerful amps delivering better sound than lower powered amps for hi-fi?

So far as headroom goes, it's voodoo. They like to pretend that things not correlated with perceptual research make a difference. They like to use sighted, uncontrolled 'evaluations'. They like to mix fact with fantasy. They can not be trusted in this regard. Unless the built in amplifier simply can not get loud enough(not sufficient voltage) or the load is too low of an impedance for the circuit, then there is not an issue, unless the thing is designed so badly as to have noise/distortion problems(which then, it's just junk).

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

Amps are required for some headphones. Not voodoo at all. Some headphones are simply high impedance and require more juice than most headphone jacks provide. That is why I use an amp with my home cans. For portable use, pick headphones that don't require an amp. IMO, if you want to be portable, keep it simple.

Headroom promotes 'voodoo' reasons, for the most part. They sell all sorts of meaningless 'upgrades' for their amplifiers, on special swappable circuit boards. They make baseless references to their balanced amplifier having better sound than an unbalanced one. They sell very expensive amplifiers on the basis that they sound better. If they really do sound better, it would probably be because they intentionally distorted/altered the responses from the lower lines. But that seems unlikely. I have not had their products in order to measure/analyze them, therefor I don't know how their products perform. They make other dubious claims also, but I am just giving a select few.

It's perfectly valid to buy the expensive stuff on the basis of pride and ownership and overall subjective enjoyment, or perhaps actual distorted output[to get a specific colored sound], but headphone.com is full of unsubstantiated information. Unfortunately, based on the apparent poor level of comprehension related to amplifiers and cables vs. human perception, one can not trust them to comprehend other issues, either.

-Chris

 

[Sleestack]

Headroom promotes 'voodoo' reasons, for the most part. They sell all sorts of meaningless 'upgrades' for their amplifiers, on special swappable circuit boards. They make baseless references to their balanced amplifier having better sound than an unbalanced one. They sell very expensive amplifiers on the basis that they sound better. If they really do sound better, it would probably be because they intentionally distorted/altered the responses from the lower lines. But that seems unlikely. I have not had their products in order to measure/analyze them, therefor I don't know how their products perform. They make other dubious claims also, but I am just giving a select few.

It's perfectly valid to buy the expensive stuff on the basis of pride and ownership and overall subjective enjoyment, or perhaps actual distorted output[to get a specific colored sound], but headphone.com is full of unsubstantiated information. Unfortunately, based on the apparent poor level of comprehension related to amplifiers and cables vs. human perception, one can not trust them to comprehend other issues, either.

-Chris

I understand why you have problem with some of their hyperbole, but I don't think they deserve to be written off as a voodoo shop.

A balanced headphone setup can definitely sound better than single ended. On my Singlepower amp you can see that I have both a single ended and XLR output. If you listen to the HD650s through the 2 different connections, there is an obvious difference in the way the 2 connections sound. There's no voodoo there.

Headphone setups are a bit different than speaker setups. The entire headphone experience is quite a distorted way to listen to music in the first place, so most headphone users are very much looking for a heapdhone setup that colors the music in the way they prefer. They might not admit it, but the endless debates about headphone preferences makes it pretty clear that people have very different ideas about what sounds best and neutral. In my case, I prefer the sound of Singlepower tube amps.

I know you never change your tune, so I won't bother trying to make you understand. I do think you should at least have some experience with some products before you chime in with your singleminded mantra, but I do respect the fact that you feel you are championing the cause of the "true" audiophile.

 

[WmAx]

.

A balanced headphone setup can definitely sound better than single ended. On my Singlepower amp you can see that I have both a single ended and XLR output. If you listen to the HD650s through the 2 different connections, there is an obvious difference in the way the 2 connections sound. There's no voodoo there.

Was this level matched(0.1dB) and blinded, randomized listening?

If you scored positive results in a valid listening test, did anyone bother to measure the output characteristic of the balanced vs. unbalanced outputs on this amplifier?

There is not one issue that pertains to audibility, that would suggest a balanced amplifier has any inherent audible difference vs. a standard one, assuming both are properly designed and operating properly.

I know you never change your tune, so I won't bother trying to make you understand. I do think you should at least have some experience with some products before you chime in with your singleminded mantra, but I do respect the fact that you feel you are championing the cause of the "true" audiophile.

Not once has what 'I' can hear, entered my posts in this thread, as evidence of anything. And if you don't mean 'hearing', but just 'experience', you need to clarify. However, my statements made here do not require any experience with the particular product, since those statements are universally applicable. Therefor my hearing and/or experience with a specific product is irrelevant.

-Chris

 

[warpdrive]

The problem with labelling Headroom gear voodoo is that they do have a unique products that is worthy of consideration. Even if you do fall into the "all properly designed amps sound the same" camp, there is still reason to buy some of headroom's offerings for their unique features like their portable DACs which have flexible set of inputs, very well designed crossfeed processors, high gain amps that will power very difficult loads (so you can use high grade headphones properly with your portable sources)

 

[Buckle-meister]

You definitely want an isolating headphone, an IEM type earphone is highly recommended in that situation. It will literally shut you off from the outside world with 20dB or more noise isolation.

I think I agree. If I go ahead and get an iPod (I was looking at them today), I'd like to give this type of earphone a try. With noise isolation, I get the impression they'd sound excellent.

I'd suggest the ER6i as starters, it's still the "go to" earphone under $100 IMO.

At around £70 (the cheapest I could find them), they'd be half the price of the 2GB iPod nano itself! That doesn't mean I'm opposed to getting them, just that they're pushing the limits of my budget.

I spotted from one website that they come with 'filters'. What're the filters for?

 

[warpdrive]

The filters are there to keep your bodily gunk out of the eartips, and also shape the frequency response. Without them, they don't sound right (very shrill).

You do need to replace them every once in a while but they should last a reasonably long time if you practice decent ear hygiene, and don't excercise with them (moisture), otherwise, you may need to replace them more often.

I think a good pair of headphones is an investment. You buy one that sounds as good as possible, and even if you upgrade iPods, you will still keep the headphones. I had a pair of AKG K340's that I had for 10 years, and they sounded great up to the day I gave them to my father in law (which was a big mistake because he gave them away without tell me)

 

[Buckle-meister]

I think a good pair of headphones is an investment. You buy one that sounds as good as possible, and even if you upgrade iPods, you will still keep the headphones. I had a pair of AKG K340's...

Oh I agree, but the AKGs appear to be full size headphones and so are almost certainly more robust than earphones like the Etymotics. Having had portable CD and cassette (remember those?! ) players in the past, I've never found earphones to last as long as larger headphones. Usually it's the thin cables that end up getting snagged on something or another. Then again, maybe it's just me not being careful enough.

 

[WmAx]

Oh I agree, but the AKGs appear to be full size headphones and so are almost certainly more robust than earphones like the Etymotics. Having had portable CD and cassette (remember those?! ) players in the past, I've never found earphones to last as long as larger headphones. Usually it's the thin cables that end up getting snagged on something or another. Then again, maybe it's just me not being careful enough.

Don't take chances on a more expensive IEM. Before spending more, do a comfort test. Go out and buy a pair of Sony MDR-EX71, and listen to them a few times, to determine if you can tolerate things in your ears for extended periods on a regular basis. It's a low cost model that goes in the ear canal, and is generally considered a good value. I don't know how cheap they are in Scotland, but in the U.S., I've seen them around the $20 range at discount stores.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

The problem with labelling Headroom gear voodoo is that they do have a unique products that is worthy of consideration.

Sure, they have some good products. But they also chose to sell pixie dust claims/products, and proclaim it as real, with no substantial evidence. Thus, they earned their low credibility when talking about or making any claims that relate to audibility.

Even if you do fall into the "all properly designed amps sound the same" camp,

The camp I am in, is the one where people have reasonable standards for information. Something sadly lacking in this hobby.

there is still reason to buy some of headroom's offerings for their unique features like their portable DACs which have flexible set of inputs, very well designed crossfeed processors, high gain amps that will power very difficult loads (so you can use high grade headphones properly with your portable sources)

Yes, they have some good products, no disagreement. They also have some snake-oil products, the main difference being the price.

-Chris

 

[Buckle-meister]

Don't take chances on a more expensive IEM. Before spending more, do a comfort test. Go out and buy a pair of Sony MDR-EX71, and listen to them a few times, to determine if you can tolerate things in your ears for extended periods on a regular basis...

Sounds like good advice. I've priced them here at £25.67 (including P+P) but could get them a bit cheaper (£20.49 including P+P) if I bought a set without the carry case and packaging which, given that they'd really only be for the purpose of experimentation wouldn't be a problem.

 

[warpdrive]

Sounds like good advice. I've priced them here at £25.67 (including P+P) but could get them a bit cheaper (£20.49 including P+P) if I bought a set without the carry case and packaging which, given that they'd really only be for the purpose of experimentation wouldn't be a problem.

I'm going to disagree with WmAx again and say don't bother. I don't know how he gets off recommending them, but I've owned these myself and cannot recommend them at all.

The EX71 don't fit anything like the Etymotics so trying those instead won't tell you anything anything of the feel of a true IEM. Secondly, those Sonys sound like dog doo-doo. If you want to go "buy a cheap one first" route, try the Sennheiser CX300 for a bit more money, but superior sound.

If you want to know how an Etymotic feels like, try a set of foam cylindrical earplugs, that will give your the approximate feeling of wearing am IEM.

 

[Buckle-meister]

I'm going to disagree with WmAx again...

Aaaaargh!

If you want to know how an Etymotic feels like, try a set of foam cylindrical earplugs, that will give your the approximate feeling of wearing am IEM.

Ok. First things first. I'll buy a set of foam plugs and see how I get on. This makes the most sense since they cost virtually nothing. Assuming they feel fine, I'll take it from there...

I'd like to thank both you and WmAx for your thoughts. Better to have a number of opinions, even if differing, so that I can weigh up things and decide for myself than to receive just a single persons opinion and have everything depend upon it. Of course, if I had a number of opinions that were all in agreement, that'd be just super.

 

[warpdrive]

In this hobby, things is always a subjective factor, so you are bound to get differing opinions.

But I'll back all of my recommendations by saying I've either heard them personally or owned them. I can answer any questions spefically for any recommendations I make. I still own a set of EX71, ER6i, and ER4S IEM's. I've heard or owned every headphone from the entire Shure line also.

 

[Steve1000]

IMHO, WmAx was being very polite and under-stated in his recommendation. I own the EX71s and have heard the ER-4S. My conclusion: They're both really nice, but I can't stand IEMs for practical reasons.

Just for another data point, then, here's a review of some IEMs from a true world-class audio expert who inarguably knows what he's talking about:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/reference_earphones.htm

In Linkwitz's view, the Sony EX71s ($50 list price, now available for about $20 if you shop well) did very well -- they were found to be highly accurate and subjectively "remarkably smooth." By contrast, the much more expensive Etymonics ER-4S (then-$270 list price, now even more expensive) did not do nearly as well in Linkwitz's estimation -- they were found to be "quite colored" and to have rolled-off highs and to be very much in need of EQ.

So maybe this will give you some perspective as to how WmAx "gets off" (in warpdrive's words) recommending the EX71s as a "good value" (in WmAx's words), and as to whether the EX71s actually sound like "dog doo-doo" (in warpdrive's words).

Don't take chances on a more expensive IEM. Before spending more, do a comfort test. Go out and buy a pair of Sony MDR-EX71, and listen to them a few times, to determine if you can tolerate things in your ears for extended periods on a regular basis. It's a low cost model that goes in the ear canal, and is generally considered a good value. I don't know how cheap they are in Scotland, but in the U.S., I've seen them around the $20 range at discount stores.

-Chris

I'm going to disagree with WmAx again and say don't bother. I don't know how he gets off recommending them, but I've owned these myself and cannot recommend them at all.

The EX71 don't fit anything like the Etymotics so trying those instead won't tell you anything anything of the feel of a true IEM. Secondly, those Sonys sound like dog doo-doo.

 

[warpdrive]

As for this so-called "true world-class audio expert", I'll leave it as an excercise for the reader to find out for themselves if that "expert" is to be trusted.
All that analysis and he still does't know that Shure E2 and EX71 sound like dog doo-doo for listening to music. Thanks for posting that link (I've seen it before), it will remind me not to buy any loudspeakers designed by him.

And that's *my* polite way of putting it.

 

[Steve1000]

Too funny!

Here's a little help for "the reader":

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=linkwitz&btnG=Google+Search

I'd be honored beyond words to be invited to such a party! (Edit: Before warpdrive edited his post between my reading it and my replying to it, he kindly recommended that I, WmAx, and Linkwitz should all have a party together!)

As for this so-called "true world-class audio expert", I'll leave it as an excercise for the reader to find out for themselves if that "expert" is to be trusted.
All that analysis and he still does't know that Shure E2 and EX71 sound like dog doo-doo for listening to music.

And that's *my* polite way of putting it.

 

[warpdrive]

I don't even care if he designed the space shuttle too, but his headphone recommendation stinks"'s recommendation