Controversial. Why spend $1,500+ on a Receiver?

bizmord

bizmord

Full Audioholic
Maybe this topic has been beat to death now, BUT every time I ask this question I get mixed answers.


My system..

A/V Receiver - Yamaha rx-v465
L/R - Ascend Sierra-1 NrT
Center - Ascend Sierra-1 NrT
Surrounds - HTiB Onkyo
Sub - Rythmik F12
TV - Panasonic TH50PX60U (Plasma)
Blu-ray/DVD - Samsung BD-ES6000


When I spent money ($1,800) on better speakers, I heard the difference.
When I spent ($900) on a quality Sub, I heard major difference.

What will I get with a better receiver?
What will give me better sound?

More watts per channel and thus better sound?
Better built and thus cleaner sound?
the lower THD ?
Better EQ and Audyssey?

What is it about a $2,000 receiver that will give better sound???

Someone said that when doing blind tests of a $500 receiver VS $2,300 receiver .... human ear could not tell a difference.

So ..... WHY SPEND $2,000 on a receiver????

anyone?
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
POWER :) If you are going for big power, you aren't going to find that in a modest receiver and you don't need to spend top dollar on a receiver; just get one with pre-outs that has the features you want and get an amp.

I did spend over that on mine.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
Amps in modern receivers can't handle difficult loads. That's pretty much it. And all the addition bells and whistles you mentioned (Room correction, DSX, NeoX, dual sub outputs, rs232, ethernet, pre-out, 7.1ch input, XLR out, plus much much more.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I bought my receiver when I had 8 Ohm speakers. Then I switched to 4 Ohm speakers and the receiver was no longer enough to drive them. IMO, even the top tier receivers will struggle with difficult to drive speakers.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
I bought my receiver when I had 8 Ohm speakers. Then I switched to 4 Ohm speakers and the receiver was no longer enough to drive them. IMO, even the top tier receivers will struggle with difficult to drive speakers.
It shouldn't. I read an article (I think on here) some time ago about receivers losing weight, but gaining features. Amps aren't as important as they used to be apparently. If you buy a $2.5k receiver that can't drive a 4ohm speaker that doesn't regularly dip down to <2ohm then you should be pissed you didn't get a pre/pro instead. That's just silly for that money. I wonder if Gene or someone else would be willing to do a little test for us?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Power and features like Network, dual HDMI output, front HDMI, Audyssey 32XT, more zones, etc.

But if you don't need any of this, then there is no reason.

Sometimes you can get a Denon 4311 for $1225 delivered when MSRP is $2100.

When you compare the 3312 vs 4311 on HTM, I think the 3312 outputs 225wpc x2ch 4 ohm, while the 4311 outputs 250wpc x 2ch 4 ohm; not much difference in power.
 
bizmord

bizmord

Full Audioholic
Power and features like Network, dual HDMI output, front HDMI, Audyssey 32XT, more zones, etc.

But if you don't need any of this, then there is no reason.

Sometimes you can get a Denon 4311 for $1225 delivered when MSRP is $2100.

When you compare the 3312 vs 4311 on HTM, I think the 3312 outputs 225wpc x2ch 4 ohm, while the 4311 outputs 250wpc x 2ch 4 ohm; not much difference in power.
Is it better than Onkyo TX-NR818 ?
i can get that one for $900
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Well, since pre-outs are available on most receivers, any receiver in that 1.5k range darn better have some performance (besides raw power) and/or features that are impossible to find on less expensive receivers

To me, a mid priced with pre-outs and all with the features I need/want and a separate power amp make more sense.

But, a lot of muggles arent as savvy as we are and are easily sold a nice, neat, convenient one-piece solution by a slick salesman. Look at Bose.
 
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panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
Well, since pre-outs are available on most receivers, any receiver in that 1.5k range darn better have some performance (besides raw power) and/or features that are impossible to find on less expensive receivers

To me, a mid priced with pre-outs and all with the features I need/want and a separate power amp make more sense.

But, a lot of muggles arent as savvy as we are and are easily sold a nice, neat, convenient one-piece solution by a slick salesman. Look at Bose.
You must not have looked at receivers in a bit. It sucks, but only the mid end models and up have pre-outs now. They start around $849 and go up from there. Granted that is MSRP so take what you want from that.
 
ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
Sound, quality, controls, price, 2 outputs for subs, watts, channels, overall value.
The biggest advantage with the Onkyo 818 I can see is the addition of XT32, that feature alone is not found on receivers in that price range and until this year Onkyo has not made XT32 available in the 8XX models. The question is how important is the advanced RC feature to you? The 818 has a very robust amp section and should drive 4Ohm loads fairly easy, (depending on how loud you listen) one word of caution, HEAT, needs a lot of clearance from shelves and enclosures, I recommend an external PC fan like this.
Newegg.com - COOLER MASTER Megaflow 200 R4-LUS-07AB-GP 200mm Blue LED Case Fan
It keeps my 809 cool to the touch in my rack. Onkyo is recommended for their amp sections around this forum, (not by all though). I'm not a real big fan of RC in receivers (which is a debate for another time) but the 818 offers XT32 which is the top tier of the Audyssey line up. Your decision should be based on your listening preferences and speakers you plan on using. Hope this sheds some light. If you will be using a receiver only to drive your speakers, $1000 is a good price to achieve your intended goal. ;)
Cheers Jeff
 
ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
You must not have looked at receivers in a bit. It sucks, but only the mid end models and up have pre-outs now. They start around $849 and go up from there. Granted that is MSRP so take what you want from that.
The Onkyo TX-NR709 is a good receiver with pre-amp outputs, all of the DSP you will need and can be had for around $500 new. IMO very good receiver to use with external amplification. :)
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Well, podner, technically, ya might have got me there.

You must not have looked at receivers in a bit. It sucks, but only the mid end models and up have pre-outs now. They start around $849 and go up from there. Granted that is MSRP so take what you want from that.
I do believe I said "mid priced" receivers, but I also see where I said "most". Perhaps "many" or "some" would have been technically more accurate. Would that have satisfied you?

I can see we're really gonna have to be on our toes with you here to correct us now. If you want to be that pedantic, you're gonna be real busy. Lonely, perhaps, but really busy.

Well, since pre-outs are available on most receivers, any receiver in that 1.5k range darn better have some performance (besides raw power) and/or features that are impossible to find on less expensive receivers

To me, a mid priced with pre-outs and all with the features I need/want and a separate power amp make more sense.

But, a lot of muggles arent as savvy as we are and are easily sold a nice, neat, convenient one-piece solution by a slick salesman. Look at Bose.
 
bizmord

bizmord

Full Audioholic
Here is what a guy from another forum wrote to me. Here is what his suggestion is.....

"
More expensive receivers usually offer the following:
Better remote
More features (you may desire or not)
Bigger beefier power amplifiers
Possibly better sound.
More channels (9.1 or 11.1 versus 5.1 or 7.1 etc)

It depends what you want to do with it. People like to buy the big expensive receiver and often never use the added features or never needed the power.

What I would look for is the least expensive receiver you can find that offers the surround features you need and channels you need (and possibly one with preouts so you can add power amps.

Receivers are basically disposable toasters with horrid resale value. Stereo shops are littered with $3000 receivers 8-10 years ago that sell for $200 now.

Once the feature set is out of date they're pretty much worthless. I would treat a receiver like a laptop - in three years they're pretty much obsolete junk.

So if you buy a $700 current just released receiver you will pretty much get 90% of the features you would get from a $2100 receiver. If you run reasonably efficient speakers it's doubtful you'll notice an audible difference (in the same line - comparing say a Marantz to a Marantz or Deonon to Denon etc). Then in 3 years you buy another $700 receiver - chances are that new $700 receiver will blow the current $2000 receiver away in terms of features. But even if it's "just on par" you have now equaled the $2100 receiver and over 6 years you've spent $1400. Plus three years after that if you spend $700 you can be pretty much guaranteed that any $700 receiver in 2018 will beat any current $2100 receiver in terms of remote feature set and perhaps power and sound as well all for the same money spread over three purchases.

Further you were able to sell the previous 2 receivers or use them in second and third systems. So over 9 years you have three amplifiers. Or one receiver that had to last 9 years (buying one now for 9 years or buying one now - for 3 years, another for 3 more years, and another for 3 more years). The $2100 one will be out of date in 3-6 years. But with the three receivers - you will always be "up to date" on technology and in year 9 when or if they've replaced HDMI with something else your machine will have the connections or if they're up to 20.2 you're machine will have the connections.


As for the power amp section - if the receiver has the preouts you could buy yourself some good well built power amps that probably beat any in the receivers and you can cart them along to every receiver in the future or buy surround processors instead.


A Receiver is like an all in one printer. It does everything but nothing particularly well. Their reason for being is features. But if the features are passe every few years you may as well go as cheap as possible with all the features you require and treat them as disposable.

Further if the $700 one blows up after the warranty it is easier to swallow than the $2,100 or $5,000 beastie if it fails.

Receivers have very high failure rates. I worked at McDonalds - we went through 3 receivers in a year - Yamaha, Denon, and Sony and they only ran two speakers. I had the flagship Pioneer Elite in the mid 95 - (the first one was DOA) - the second one was okay but my current 2003 $350 Marantz sounds every bit as good (in some ways better) and is far more advanced in every way. 8 year later a $350 receiver embarrasses an over $2,000 receiver.

Frankly I would look at something like this.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-guT4TWbv7mV/p_642NR1603/Marantz

* "
Makes sense???
 
avnetguy

avnetguy

Audioholic Chief
Here is what a guy from another forum wrote to me. Here is what his suggestion is.....

"

Makes sense???
Seems to be a little overboard on some things but it really depends on why you have a certain receiver in the first place. If you're heavily dependent on the newest and latest features your turn around on receivers will be high and might cost you a fair bit. Now if your requirements are more modest, a mid-level receiver will likely do you for many, many years, much more than three anyways. BTW, I'm still using my perfectly working Yamaha 5750 on my computer and its 7 years old now.

In the end, buy what you can afford to fill your wants/needs. I'll go a little out on a limb here with saying that basically any mid-level AVR will sound as good as the higher end ones in a regular HT setup providing the speakers aren't hard to drive. If the mid-level AVR has preouts then a fairly cheap amp will solve that problem as well.

Steve
 
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
It depends on what is important to you and your setup. I spent more on my last AVR than I ever had because I really wanted Audyessy XT32-Sub EQ HT and Air-Play. If that wasn't important to me I would have spent significantly less.
 
bizmord

bizmord

Full Audioholic
So for my situation .....

I want;

7.2 system ... For future upgrades
audyessy xt32
Pre-outs for external amp (my sierras-1 are not tooo easy to drive)
Technology that manipulates sound to make sound effects not go crazy on you while dialog is lost. I know lates receivers can handle this problem well.

What receiver should i get? Doesn't need to be brand new.
Trying to stay under $700 if I'll be buying an amp too.

Thanks
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
It shouldn't. I read an article (I think on here) some time ago about receivers losing weight, but gaining features. Amps aren't as important as they used to be apparently. If you buy a $2.5k receiver that can't drive a 4ohm speaker that doesn't regularly dip down to <2ohm then you should be pissed you didn't get a pre/pro instead. That's just silly for that money. I wonder if Gene or someone else would be willing to do a little test for us?
I agree with you if one has speakers that dips often to 2 ohms or even 3 ohms. There are plenty of nice sounding speakers that don't dip down that low. Mine does dip to 3.5 to 4 ohms at certain freq but not lower than that, and I don't consider them difficult to drive for my receivers as long as the dips don't line up with large phase angles and the bass territory.

Besides your speaker sensitivity and impedance characteristics, it obviously also depend on your power needs base on you listening SPL preference and room acoustics environment. If you have a medium size room like mine, you can listen at 75 to 85 dB SPL from 12 ft away with peaks to just over 100 dB and even higher short burst; and your mid range receiver such as the Onkyo 1XXX, Denon 4XXX, Yamaha 3XXXX will have no trouble delivering without getting close to the limit. I know so because I have taken some measurements in my room and compared the measurements between my AVRs with and without external amps.

People who are second guessing whether their AVR is giving them enough power should take some measurements first before spending money on amps and then hype themselves up along with the well known Placebo effect and report "day and night/huge" improvements in sound quality when they could have gotten more from the money by simply buying top notch recordings, trade up their L/R speakers or subs.

I am using separates now but would have no trouble switching back to a good mid range AVR if someone would offer me good money for my prepro and amp.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So for my situation .....

I want;

7.2 system ... For future upgrades
audyessy xt32
Pre-outs for external amp (my sierras-1 are not tooo easy to drive)
Technology that manipulates sound to make sound effects not go crazy on you while dialog is lost. I know lates receivers can handle this problem well.

What receiver should i get? Doesn't need to be brand new.
Trying to stay under $700 if I'll be buying an amp too.

Thanks
Depending on you room acoustic environment (e.g. dimensions) and your SPL requirements from your popular listening positions etc., you may not need an amp but something like a AVR-4311 that is rated for 4 ohms. Then if you really feel like having a powerful amp, add a low cost 2 channel Crown amp for the L/R Ascend and then just sit back and enjoy the music.
 

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