Controversial. Why spend $1,500+ on a Receiver?

M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Doesit make sense to you?

Here is what a guy from another forum wrote to me. Here is what his suggestion is.....

"bla bla bla

Makes sense???
You've posted this same question on at least two different forums (here's one) and have gotten over thirty responses between them.

Isn't it about time you gave it some thought on your own and made up your own mind instead of asking us to second-guess each other?

That's kind of abusing the helpfulness that's freely offered by the kindness of the posters, doncha think?

After all is said and done, I think this was the best answer.
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
After all is said and done, I think this was the best answer.
Ah, Elizabeth. A Maggie lover, who thinks people (well, guys) with 600w/ch amps are compensating for something, and the need for deep bass is just a guy thing. (I'd quote her, but I don't think this forum tolerates that sort of thing.) I don't mind saying I enjoy every one of her posts, though I think she's sometimes full of it. My wife pushed me into considering a subwoofer. ;) Too bad she doesn't join AH.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Ah, Elizabeth. A Maggie lover, who thinks people (well, guys) with 600w/ch amps are compensating for something, and the need for deep bass is just a guy thing. (I'd quote her, but I don't think this forum tolerates that sort of thing.) I don't mind saying I enjoy every one of her posts, though I think she's sometimes full of it. My wife pushed me into considering a subwoofer. ;) Too bad she doesn't join AH.
Gotta say, she nailed it though.

The problems with these forums is that when you petition for an opinion on a fairly subjective matter, you'll get them. ...Sometimes so many that decisions can be difficuit. Asking for more opinions simply complicates the matter even more.

Nobody else can tell OP what decision to make. OP must make that decision himself. At some point, OP must consider all the options offered, pick a direction, and go there.

Welcome to that point.
 
brianedm

brianedm

Audioholic General
I'm really happy with my receiver right now, but reading about the 4520ci has gotten me quite intrigued. Main reason being for xt32.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
I think that maybe one of the sticking points for the OP is the whole matter of why, most of the time, in a blind listening test, people - even experienced listeners - can't tell the difference between a $500 receiver and a $2000 receiver. The OP asked that in the beginning, but it wasn't really answered - at least not in this thread :p

The whole thing about features - that's pretty easy to understand, I think. You want Audyssey MultEQ XT32? That's a very nice, but very specific feature, and you'll have to spend at least $750 for a fully authorized refurbished Onkyo TX-NR818 from accessories4less in order to get it! Plain and simple. Right now, there's no less expensive option for that one, specific feature if you want it. So I think that's very easy to understand.

But when it comes to the matter of HEARING the difference - and when we're not just talking about features like room correction, EQ or listening modes, here's the skinny:

The vast majority of the time, we are only using 10 Watts or less per speaker - and much of the time, only 2 or 3 speakers out of 5 or 7 are even playing! Many, many folks do not realize just how little power is actually being used most of the time.

It's only in rare - and typically very brief - circumstances where the power demands skyrocket. So it's only in these rare and brief moments that more powerful and/or higher quality amplifiers will reveal their superiority vs. the amps you'd find in a $500 AV Receiver.

Most speakers have an efficiency around 87dB / 1 Watt / 1 meter. Some speakers are less efficient. Some are more efficient. But that's about average in a lot of cases.

So what does that mean, exactly? Well, it means that if you're sitting 1 meter (about 3 feet) away from the speaker, it only takes 1 Watt of power to produce a Sound Pressure Level (SPL) of 87dB. That's loud! Full THX Reference level calls for 85dB average sound levels with 105dB peaks. That's full blown movie theater loudness. Most folks, when they're at home, prefer quieter listening levels than what you get at the movie theater. Most people prefer something around 75dB average with 95dB peaks. And many people listen even quieter than that.

So we know that if we're out in a wide open field, every time we double our distance from a sound source, we lose 6dB in SPL. In a typical room inside a house though, every time we double our distance, we lose more like 3dB in SPL, not the full 6dB.

So let's double our distance from the speaker, and then double it again. Now we're 4 meters away instead of 1 meter (about 12 feet away instead of 3). By doubling our distance, and then doubling it again, we've lost about 6dB in SPL. If we were out in a wide open field, we'd have lost 12dB. But inside a house, it's closer to 6dB quieter from this 4 meter distance.

So it still takes only 1 Watt to make that speaker produce 81dB of output, even at this 4 meter distance! That's still louder than what most people prefer at home. And even if we want to hit THX Reference Volume, we only need to double the power to add 3dB in SPL. So just 2 Watts gets us very close to 85dB Reference Volume levels from a full 4 meters away. Now you can see why, the vast majority of the time, we just don't need very much amplifier power!

Any half decent amp can produce 2 Watts per speaker. Even if all 7 speakers are being told to play equally loud at the exact same time (which almost never happens in a real soundtrack!), we're only talking about 14 Watts total! And that's if all 7 speakers are a full 4 meters away from the listening position. AND you're listening at "movie theater loud" 84dB SPL!

Even if your speakers are a lower, 4 ohm design, any decent $500 AV Receiver should be able to muster up 14 Watts. So that is why, most of the time, no one can tell the difference between a $500 receiver and a $2000 receiver - or $10,000 in separate amps, or what-have-you. We just don't need very many Watts!

BUT, things change VERY rapidly. For every 3dB increase in SPL, we have to DOUBLE the power. For every 10dB increase, we have to multiply the power demands by 10x !

So let's just imagine that 2 Watts is giving up 85dB of output from 4 meters away. That would be the case with 88dB / 1 Watt / 1 meter efficient speakers. We lost 6dB in SPL by doubling the distance, and then doubling it again. Then we increased the SPL 3dB by doubling the power.

Now it's time to hit those 105dB THX Reference Volume peaks. Multiply the power by 10x. That gives up 20Watts per speaker, and results in 95dB in SPL. 10x the power equals 10dB increase in SPL. Now we need 10x more power again! We've just hit 200 Watts all of a sudden! And now we're at 105dB.

That didn't take much to suddenly be calling for 200 Watts per speaker, did it? And what if your speakers are less efficient? Or you're sitting even farther away? A mere 3dB difference will call for a doubling of the power again. Now we're talking about 400 Watts in no time! And it just goes up exponentially from there.

In truth, AV Receivers aren't a good way of trying to get massive Wattage capabilities. The TX-NR818, for example, might claim 135 Watts/channel. But that's only with 2-channels driven. So that tells you how many Watts the power section of that AV Receiver can really supply, which is about 270 Watts total. If all 7 channels happen to call for the same amount of power at the same time (again, not something that ever happens in real life, but this is just a hypothetical), then the TX-NR818 becomes a 38.5 Watts/channel amplifier, NOT a 135 Watts/channel amp, like the spec sheet says ;)

The dynamic power rating into 1 channel also lets us know a little something about the capabilities of each individual channel's output transistors. In this case, even though the power section of the TX-NR818 can deliver around 270 Watts total, each individual channel has a maximum output of 150 Watts, at which point, the output transistors of that one channel become saturated and cannot deliver any more power. It's a bit like plumbing. You've got this 270 Watt "bucket" of power at any given moment. But all of that water has to come out of a nozzle. If you open all 7 nozzles, each nozzle can have 38.5 Watts, but if you open just one nozzle, that nozzle becomes the bottle neck, and it can only let out 150 Watts at a time, not the full 270 Watt "bucket".

Things get a little more complicated when we bring the impedance of the speakers into the mix. In this analogy, we're basically connecting a hose to the nozzle. And "easier" 8 ohm speaker will be a somewhat skinny hose. A "harder to drive" 4 ohm speaker will be a fatter hose. If the hose is fatter than the nozzle, we've got a problem. The nozzle can't feed the fat hose fast enough - and that's what happens to low cost, or lower quality amplifiers when they're connected to low impedance speakers. They've got a skinny nozzle, the speakers have a fat hose, so they "starve" for power, even if the "bucket" of Watts is about the same size.

So what do more expensive AV Receivers give you vs. less expensive ones? The most obvious things are features and inputs - and that's really what you should base your decision on. You MIGHT also get fatter "nozzles" that can handle the fatter "hoses" of low impedance speakers. But even that is not always the case. And, in truth, you'll get a bigger "bucket" of Watts, but not THAT much bigger. You might go from a 180 Watt "bucket" to a 270 Watt "bucket". But remember that double the Watts only gets you 3dB more output!

So it's not really about the Watts. And since we only use 2 Watts/speaker or less the vast majority of the time - maybe 10 or 20 Watts per speaker for some big crescendos and explosions - we're just not going to HEAR a difference. If you sit far away, have difficult to power speakers, have very inefficient speakers, or you just want to hit full THX Reference Volume levels, then you might suddenly be calling for 200 or 400 Watts per speaker or more! NO AV Receiver - no matter how expensive - is going to deliver THAT. So if those are your circumstances, it's time to get some external amplification!

I hope that helps and clears things up for some folks :)
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
So it's not really about the Watts. And since we only use 2 Watts/speaker or less the vast majority of the time - maybe 10 or 20 Watts per speaker for some big crescendos and explosions - we're just not going to HEAR a difference. If you sit far away, have difficult to power speakers, have very inefficient speakers, or you just want to hit full THX Reference Volume levels, then you might suddenly be calling for 200 or 400 Watts per speaker or more! NO AV Receiver - no matter how expensive - is going to deliver THAT. So if those are your circumstances, it's time to get some external amplification!

I hope that helps and clears things up for some folks :)
And that's why my least sensitive speaker is 96dB w/ 2.83 volts and I sit 6-8 feet from them. Of course, I still don't actually listen at reference level.

FWIW though, while no receiver can deliver 200-400 watts continuously, even modestly priced amplifiers and receivers are supposed to be able to deliver that kind of juice for a transient peak.

When it comes to amplification, continuous output tests are run on up to one, four, and five channels (simultaneously) of an Ultra product, but only one at a time on Select. With all products, the dynamic amplifier tests are done on up to all available channels. Ultra amplifiers must be stable on all channels to 3.2 ohms and swing an 18A peak, while Select products must be stable into 4 ohms (front channel) and 8 ohms (surrounds), and swing peaks of 12.5A and 6.2A respectively.
Feature Article

That means even a THX Select receiver/amplifier is certified to deliver 625 watt peak (4x12.5^2) into a 4 ohm load.
 
connieflyer

connieflyer

Audioholic
years ago I purchased a Harman Kardon AVR510, nice receiver,style what have you. I used it to power a 5.1 system consisting of PSB Image speakers. Sounded great. A few years late got a chance to get the H-K AVR 2100, almost twice the power 7.1 a little more versatile. Long and the short or it is I never heard any difference between the two receivers, still don't as I still have the 510. The 2100 weights almost double the 510, was worried about the glass shelf holding it, but did. I would have to believe that for the most part, price increase is not just power but features. It is like buying a new car. You buy a stripped down chevy and your friend buys the same car loaded with options. Both cars, same mpg warranty, ride, handling but your friend paid much more for features. 'Bout all the difference most people will see.
 
T

templemaners

Senior Audioholic
I paid that much (well, actually a bit less, but MSRP/retail was above $1500 when I bought my 4311) because that model had the features I wanted and said features weren't on any cheaper models. Simple as that.

I couldn't have cared less about how much power it had. The 4311 handles my speakers just fine for the playback levels I listen to. If it needs more power or I change speakers to ones that present a more challenging load, it has the preouts to handle external amps.
 
Send Margaritas

Send Margaritas

Audioholic
Interesting thread. FWIW, Personally, I chose to spend a little extra on a receiver primarily for the extra channels supported in that price range. (9.2 was a must, and 11.2 will drive my next purchase. Extra channels are a significant improvement you can hear.) The extra features and a bit better quality (better DAC, better SNR, lower THD, more power) are attractive too, but less so, once you have the basics (pre-outs, internet support, good SQ, etc.).
 
k0rww

k0rww

Audioholic Intern
In general you get what you pay for until you reach diminishing returns. When dimishing returns sets in you will be paying much more for the extras. I paid extra for my last pre-pro because I really wanted Audyessy XT32-Sub EQ HT.
 
S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
As always, the market will determine what we have an opportunity to buy and what it will cost. Just look at today's HT products and what the market was buying before the financial recession, which began in 2008. Seems like today we have higher quality, more features and implied benefits for less cost, albeit in modest cases, sans milled aluminum face-plates and back-lit push buttons. Not too much of a sacrifice for consumers. However, a looming financial collapse will undoubtedly bring about more change in markets with crank radio's, I'm sure, becoming quite popular when folks loose their gas and electric service.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
I do believe I said "mid priced" receivers, but I also see where I said "most". Perhaps "many" or "some" would have been technically more accurate. Would that have satisfied you?

I can see we're really gonna have to be on our toes with you here to correct us now. If you want to be that pedantic, you're gonna be real busy. Lonely, perhaps, but really busy.
Wasn't expecting that reaction. I wasn't trying to point out that you were wrong, but that I think you have to pay too much for pre-outs on a receiver. Poor wording on my part.

I apologize.
 
bizmord

bizmord

Full Audioholic
I have decided to do separates.....
see my current setup in signature...

I want to go Emotiva XPA-3 for the fronts and let my receiver power the rears.

My question ......... WHAT RECEIVER to get.

So now that I'll be getting the amp, I don't care about Watts in the Receiver.

What I do care about is;

1) Need all the latest (DTSHD Master, Tru HD, etc)

2) A better room sound correction software like Audyssy .. 32?, sound processing that make dialog sound better .... one guy wrote for Yamaha RX-A820 model on Amazon ....
"Dialogue Level does a good job keeping voice clear at different volumes. Ever had a movie be thunderingly over-loud, but you find yourself turning it up because you can't hear the speech? I did a lot of that before switching to the RX-A820"

I have same issue. so Whatever his receiver did, I need that in a new receiver.

3) 7.2 setup would be nice, though currently I have a 5.1 and don't plan on expanding it.

4) Need pre outs for front 3 speakers.

5) Nice to be able to play music from my ITunes or wireless.

I am OK buying used .... probably bigger value if I get something that's 1-2 years old.

Any suggestions?

So far I am eying ... Yamaha RX-A820 .... but it uses YPAO.
or
Marantz SR5003

Thanks.
 
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ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
I have decided to do separates.....
see my current setup in signature...

I want to go Emotiva XPA-3 for the fronts and let my receiver power the rears.

My question ......... WHAT RECEIVER to get.

So now that I'll be getting the amp, I don't care about Watts in the Receiver.

What I do care about is;

1) Need all the latest (DTSHD Master, Tru HD, etc)

2) A better room sound correction software like Audyssy .. 32?, sound processing that make dialog sound better .... one guy wrote for Yamaha RX-A820 model on Amazon ....
"Dialogue Level does a good job keeping voice clear at different volumes. Ever had a movie be thunderingly over-loud, but you find yourself turning it up because you can't hear the speech? I did a lot of that before switching to the RX-A820"

I have same issue. so Whatever his receiver did, I need that in a new receiver.

3) 7.2 setup would be nice, though currently I have a 5.1 and don't plan on expanding it.

4) Need pre outs for front 3 speakers.

5) Nice to be able to play music from my ITunes or wireless.

I am OK buying used .... probably bigger value if I get something that's 1-2 years old.

Any suggestions?

So far I am eying ... Yamaha RX-A820 .... but it uses YPAO.
or
Marantz SR5003

Thanks.
This should work just fine, if you want XT32 you need to move up to the 818.
Amazon.com: Onkyo TX-NR709 7.2-Channel Network A/V Receiver (Black): Electronics
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
For best bang for the bucks I can't think of any better deal than the 4311. Besides being rich in features, with its reasonably powerful amp section, if for any reason you ever want to go back to one box solution you have the option. As for room correction software, some people think Anthem's system is better but IMHO I prefer to trust Audyssey due to their seemingly stronger resource base including their close collaboration/association with the academics (University of Southern California). Don't get me wrong I am proud of that Canadian product being so respected but I really do find Audyssey more open and transparant about their product in general. That (Audyssey XT32) is also a main reason why I favor the 4311 or any of the Onkyo from 3008 or 3009 and above but Denon seems to enjoy a better perceived reliability track record.
 
P

pearsall001

Full Audioholic
I wanted to step up to 11.2 channels with my new AVR (I had NAD AVR's for years & was ready for a change). I choose the AVENTAGE RX-A3010 as the one that would fit the bill. Having a multi channel amp made it easy on the AVR for only having to power the rear surrounds & the front & rear presence speakers. Needless to say I am overly impressed with the 3010 for it's features & most importanly it's sound quality for both 2 channel & HT. The newest version of YPAO is icing on the cake (it is remarkable). Watching a Blu Ray movie now is simply incredible with the way the presence speakers add to the whole dimension of the movie. I am simply impressed with Yamaha. I only wish I had done this sooner.
 
bizmord

bizmord

Full Audioholic
yea, I am really considering the Yamaha RX-A2020 ..... or RX-A2010 ..... price difference is about $500 .... what's the best choice?

I see that the A2020 has Dialog Level Adjustment. This may be exactly what I need as some movies I hear sound effects more than the dialog.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
For best bang for the bucks I can't think of any better deal than the 4311. Besides being rich in features, with its reasonably powerful amp section, if for any reason you ever want to go back to one box solution you have the option. As for room correction software, some people think Anthem's system is better but IMHO I prefer to trust Audyssey due to their seemingly stronger resource base including their close collaboration/association with the academics (University of Southern California). Don't get me wrong I am proud of that Canadian product being so respected but I really do find Audyssey more open and transparant about their product in general. That (Audyssey XT32) is also a main reason why I favor the 4311 or any of the Onkyo from 3008 or 3009 and above but Denon seems to enjoy a better perceived reliability track record.
Denon 4311 new for $1225 delivered by Electronics Expo is a great, great deal. Amazing deal if you need Audyssey-32, dual HDMI outputs, and other features. I think HTM measured 250wpc 4ohm x 2ch 1% THD.

Otherwise, I think the Denon 3312 brand new for $550 delivered was the best deal ever. :D It is 225wpc 4ohm x 2ch 1% THD.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
yea, I am really considering the Yamaha RX-A2020 ..... or RX-A2010 ..... price difference is about $500 .... what's the best choice?

I see that the A2020 has Dialog Level Adjustment. This may be exactly what I need as some movies I hear sound effects more than the dialog.
I would get the A2010 and save $500. Just increase the center channel level by 2-3 dB above the rest. :D

I would just get a used excellent condition Denon 3310 for about $400. :D
 

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