Contemplating a home theater setup

[Pupp]

I was considering on buying the Klipsch RF-62 II Home Theater Package, and wanted some feedback if its a good deal.

On the surface it seems like a good deal. Its at the upper end of what I'd be wanting. (That is, it just barely comes under budget). I could save a LOT by going with the similar Klipsch RF-52 II Home Theater Package, but seems like the quality of the RF 62 is a lot higher. Plus it comes with the really good Yamaha RX-A 800 reciever.

This will most likely be my only home theater purchase for many years, so I wanted to make sure I got really good quality for my budget.

Edit: What I'll end up doing, if I get the RF-62, is waiting about a year before having a custom HTPC built. Not a huge deal though. TV's and stuff nowadays have plenty of web access.

 

[GranteedEV]

What exactly is your budget? I think you can probably do a good bit better than that.

 

[Pupp]

Budget

I think $2500 is a good target to keep under for the Speakers/subwoofer + reciever.

The TV I want is a 55" Panasonic Viera plasma. Thats about $1800 base price. I've already got a solid white oak TV stand, and had an electrician run a new line for the setup. Need to get a price to have a network line installed, so I don't have to use wireless.

I don't have any sort of timeline, other than I'm having stuff done as I get the $$.

-FYI, car repairs have set me back a LOT on my timeline. Off topic, but the car is well worth keeping up, rather than getting a newer car with payments.

On the flip side, overtime is all but a guarentee for me in the new few months, and that will really help me get back on track with my home theater project.

 

[GranteedEV]

I think $2500 is a good target to keep under for the Speakers/subwoofer + reciever.

I see. For a receiver I'd go with this guy

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARSR6004/Marantz/SR6004-110w-X-7ch-Home-Theater-Surround-Receiver/1.html

For the subwoofer, we need to know your room size - how open is it etc. Internet direct is definitely the way to go here - subs you get in stores are undersized, underpowered, but overpriced.

For speakers, let's budget around 1500 for two fronts, two surrounds, and maybe a center if it's any good (depends on the fronts you choose).

I don't think the klipsch speakers are the best you can do at all for the money. Aperion Audio's Verus Forte and Intimus 6 lines should have some sweet options for you. I think these will be notably superior to what you're currently looking at.

Remember, you can skimp to an extent on surrounds and focus on the fronts; it's where 90% of the sound is coming from, after all!

Avoid center channels which are MTM - a high frequency driver flanked to the left and right by woofers.

 

[Pupp]

I'd gander its a medium sized living room. Semi open. Was fairly closed, but had part of the wall removed between the livingroom/kitchen/hallway. That opened it up alot.

-Just a couple feet of the wall was removed. It made the house feel a lot more open without sacrificing the feel of the house.

Before, it looked like a 3 way intersection, and rather clausterphobic when walking from the one area of the house to the other at that intersection.

The TV will be on the wall in the "open" side of the room. If that makes a difference.

Its not so much about the loudness, but quality of the speakers I'm wanting. I know that the higher the quality, it can be a huge difference in the listening experiance regardless if its playing loud or soft.

 

[GranteedEV]

Its not so much about the loudness, but quality of the speakers I'm wanting. I know that the higher the quality, it can be a huge difference in the listening experiance regardless if its playing loud or soft.

Good. I definitely think the Aperions will be a superior choice for mains and center - try an in home 30 day trial if you're interested - no obligation to keep em if they aren't right.

For a sub, I would be looking at 12s or larger in such a room where much low end gain is unlikely - it is just natural for a bigger motor, bigger amp and bigger cone to produce low distortion with low frequencies. Look into various offerings from SVS, HSU, Funkywaves, Emotiva, Epik, and Rythmik. two subs will give a notable improvement in in-room frequency response, especially for multiple seats. A pair of Rythmik FV12s is what I would lean towards.

Besides those, though, what are your thoughts on a DIY sub?

 

[sholling]

I'd gander its a medium sized living room. Semi open. Was fairly closed, but had part of the wall removed between the livingroom/kitchen/hallway. That opened it up alot.

This is where it can get expensive. What is the total cubic footage including any spaces open to that room? I'd contact Elemental Designs and Possibly Hsu Research and have them size a subwoofer to your cubic footage. Just based on your description I suspect that you're looking at a subwoofer budget number of $700-800ish. Assuming $500 for the receiver that leaves about $1,200 for your 5 speakers.

Option 1
Ascend Acoustics CMT-340SE bookshelves and center up front and either CBM-170SE or HTM-200SE bookshelves for surrounds. The 170s are $50/pr off this weekend. Review ~$1,100 plus stands ($100).

Option 2
Infinity Primus P363 towers and PC351 center up front and a two P153 bookshelves for surrounds. These never seem to get reviewed but sound good. ~$1,100.

Either the already suggested re-certified Marantz or a re-certified Onkyo TX-NR708 would drive the heck out of either of these.

 

[Pupp]

Audio Neophyte

My thoughts on a DIY sub.

I'm an audio neophyte, so I'm heavily leaning toward a package deal, and not buying everything ale carte.

I wonder why Audioholics is do heavy on Kliptch equipment? Its like 4 out of 5 package deals is some sort of Kliptch setup.

Although from what I've read, the Velodyne subs are really good. Not really sure why your thinking I need a 12" sub. It's a medium sized living room. The Velodyne 10" MiniVee should be very adaquete for the room. (Unless your vision of medium sized living room is in a really expensive house.)

Kliptch can't be all that bad. I know there's some debate on the horn tweeters, but other than that, seems like read mostly positive reviews of Kliptch speakers.

Although the reciever you linked has output at 110 watts/channel, it also has only 4 HDMI "in" connectors. The Yamaha RX-A 800 has 6 "in" HDMI connectors, but only 95watts per audio channel. Pretty sure 95 watts is more than adaquete for my needs. I think if cranked up the volume to max, the neighbors would hear my movie, even at 95 watts/channel.

-There is a guy that drives through the neighborhood who's truck rattles windows as it rolls by blaring hip-hop music. lol.


But ya, I think getting a package deal is the way I want to go. Is Kliptch really that bad?

Edit: I read someplace that Kliptch speakers are really well suited for rock music, and I have a ton of 80's rock music. I love the 80's music scene... harkening back to my teen years.

 

[Pupp]

You think the Velodyne MiniVee 10 is too large? I don't know anything about subs and having to size a room for it.

Will it make the room shake too much, even at lower volumne levels?

 

[GranteedEV]

I'm an audio neophyte, so I'm heavily leaning toward a package deal, and not buying everything ale carte.

And.. you get what advantage from a package deal? Do you imagine they're going to blend together better or something just because they're sold together and are by the same company? A la carte is the way to go unless you want to sacrifice performance for..well.. uh.. brand name I guess.

Definitely get all five SPEAKERS from the same company and even speaker line (though IMO you can skimp on surrounds) but it does NOT need to be a so-called package deal.

The sub in particular from most speaker companies just don't match up to good internet direct subwoofer companies.

Although from what I've read, the Velodyne subs are really good. Not really sure why your thinking I need a 12" sub. It's a medium sized living room. The Velodyne 10" MiniVee should be very adaquete for the room. (Unless your vision of medium sized living room is in a really expensive house.)

Three reasons

1) You get little deep bass in open rooms.
2) The larger the woofer, the less distortion is likely to be created as its excursion rises. I'm a proponent of 18" drivers - NOT only because they can get louder but because they are flat-out effortless at lower volumes, and can produce deeper bass too. The larger it is, the less work it needs to do to move air, and that's what bass is. Less work normally means means it sounds better.
3)Velodyne subs are overpriced.

If you like to overpay for undersized subs then be my guest.

Kliptch can't be all that bad. I know there's some debate on the horn tweeters, but other than that, seems like read mostly positive reviews of Kliptch speakers.

Have you heard it? If you want to go with Klipsches then do what you like; i have nothing to gain from stopping you.

If what you need are reviews then here's some aperion reviews

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/floorstanding/aperion-intimus-concert-533hd

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/floorstanding/aperion-audio-intimus-6t-db-hybrid-xd

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/floorstanding/verus-grand

Although the reciever you linked has output at 110 watts/channel, it also has only 4 HDMI "in" connectors. The Yamaha RX-A 800 has 6 "in" HDMI connectors, but only 95watts per audio channel. Pretty sure 95 watts is more than adaquete for my needs. I think if cranked up the volume to max, the neighbors would hear my movie, even at 95 watts/channel.

It's not about loudness, again it's about instant/dynamics capability. The more capable the amp, the less chance of straining to drive your speakers. If HDMI in connectors are enough to sell you on the yamaha, then so be it assuming the cost is the same. Just don't pay more for a receiver with lesser amplifiers. The marantz I linked is dirt cheap and lets you focus your budget where it really matters.

-There is a guy that drives through the neighborhood who's truck rattles windows as it rolls by blaring hip-hop music. lol.

that is not anyone here's goal when it comes to watts or driver surface area. Except maybe one fella....

But ya, I think getting a package deal is the way I want to go. Is Kliptch really that bad?

1) A Package deal gets you.. what advantage? You can still get the five speakers from the same company, just subs and electronics elsewhere.
2) Opinions on Klipsch vary, but I will say that they are boom and tizz speakers that i wouldn't want in my home. There are some horn speakers I might want IE Gedlee, AudioKinesis, Pi, and JBL Pro, but not Klipsch, at least not the specific models you are looking at which are voiced to sell, not to live with.

Edit: I read someplace that Kliptch speakers are really well suited for rock music, and I have a ton of 80's rock music. I love the 80's music scene... harkening back to my teen years.

They're not "well suited". Rock music is like any other acoustic music - it is best reproduced on speakers that won't significantly alter the frequency / sound power / time domain balance. When people say they're well suited they mean they're voiced to overemphasize "fun frequencies".

If Klipsch's entry level speakers are well suited to anything, it might be trance and autotuned pop music... not that those genres sound poor on any other speaker, and if someone prefers a different sound there's always graphic eqs for smiley face settings.

Get what you like, I guess. It just sounds to me like you could do a good bit better for yourself.

 

[sholling]

I'm an audio neophyte, so I'm heavily leaning toward a package deal, and not buying everything ale carte.

That makes sense to a degree - but leave the subwoofer out of the package. The 3 front speakers need to be a perfect match and the surrounds should be close so yes a speaker package makes sense. The subwoofer does not need to be matched to the speakers - just to the total volume of the room. For the receiver pick what you like. Most receivers come with an auto-setup system. You'll place the included setup mic where you sit, hit the setup button and let it do its thing. It will balance the output of the speakers to each other and to the subwoofer and you're good to go. Just be careful of buying speaker cables and HDMI cables from the stereo store. They always push obscenely overpriced $100 speaker wires that don't sound a bit better than Monoprice.com $20/100ft speaker wire and $50 HDMI cables that don't work any better than $10 HDMI cables from monoprice. Cables are a high profit/high commission item.

Although from what I've read, the Velodyne subs are really good.

Velodyne makes some very good (and a few so-so) subs but the bang for the buck isn't there when compared with internet direct subwoofer specialists like eD and Hsu. You usually wind up paying 50-100% more to get the same performance. It's your money spend it how you like.

Not really sure why your thinking I need a 12" sub. It's a medium sized living room. The Velodyne 10" MiniVee should be very adaquete for the room. (Unless your vision of medium sized living room is in a really expensive house.)

With regular speakers you size the speaker to the distance from the speaker to the listeners. Subwoofers are a completely different animal because they have move enough air to minutely alter the air pressure in the room to give you the deep in your bones visceral bass that most people are looking for. A 10" sub maybe enough for a sealed 1500 cubic-foot room but once you open a door or cut an opening in the wall it can become the equivalent of the sound of a fart in a hurricane - in other words not all that memorable. Figure out the total volume and then decide.

Kliptch can't be all that bad. I know there's some debate on the horn tweeters, but other than that, seems like read mostly positive reviews of Kliptch speakers.

Klipsch "Reference" series aren't bad speakers. It's just that Klipsch in general are very much a love'em or hate'em speaker and you won't know until you listen at volume for a couple of hours. That's because many people find them fatiguing after a bit and the horn a bit harsh, others can't get enough of them. It's personal taste and hearing. I'm not a fan but that's me and your taste may be totally different.

 

[Pupp]

And.. you get what advantage from a package deal? Do you imagine they're going to blend together better or something just because they're sold together and are by the same company? A la carte is the way to go unless you want to sacrifice performance for..well.. uh.. brand name I guess.

Definitely get all five SPEAKERS from the same company and even speaker line (though IMO you can skimp on surrounds) but it does NOT need to be a so-called package deal.

The sub in particular from most speaker companies just don't match up to good internet direct subwoofer companies.



Three reasons

1) You get little deep bass in open rooms.
2) The larger the woofer, the less distortion is likely to be created as its excursion rises. I'm a proponent of 18" drivers - NOT only because they can get louder but because they are flat-out effortless at lower volumes, and can produce deeper bass too. The larger it is, the less work it needs to do to move air, and that's what bass is. Less work normally means means it sounds better.
3)Velodyne subs are overpriced.

If you like to overpay for undersized subs then be my guest.



Have you heard it? If you want to go with Klipsches then do what you like; i have nothing to gain from stopping you.

If what you need are reviews then here's some aperion reviews

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/floorstanding/aperion-intimus-concert-533hd

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/floorstanding/aperion-audio-intimus-6t-db-hybrid-xd

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/floorstanding/verus-grand



It's not about loudness, again it's about instant/dynamics capability. The more capable the amp, the less chance of straining to drive your speakers. If HDMI in connectors are enough to sell you on the yamaha, then so be it assuming the cost is the same. Just don't pay more for a receiver with lesser amplifiers. The marantz I linked is dirt cheap and lets you focus your budget where it really matters.



that is not anyone here's goal when it comes to watts or driver surface area. Except maybe one fella....



1) A Package deal gets you.. what advantage? You can still get the five speakers from the same company, just subs and electronics elsewhere.
2) Opinions on Klipsch vary, but I will say that they are boom and tizz speakers that i wouldn't want in my home. There are some horn speakers I might want IE Gedlee, AudioKinesis, Pi, and JBL Pro, but not Klipsch, at least not the specific models you are looking at which are voiced to sell, not to live with.



They're not "well suited". Rock music is like any other acoustic music - it is best reproduced on speakers that won't significantly alter the frequency / sound power / time domain balance. When people say they're well suited they mean they're voiced to overemphasize "fun frequencies".

If Klipsch's entry level speakers are well suited to anything, it might be trance and autotuned pop music... not that those genres sound poor on any other speaker, and if someone prefers a different sound there's always graphic eqs for smiley face settings.

Get what you like, I guess. It just sounds to me like you could do a good bit better for yourself.

Thanks, that was a really informative post. I"ll have to do some more research. I got time. I wasn't going to buy anything until after summer is over anyway.

Guess I'll have to look someplace else other than Audioholics for a setup. Just thought since they sold so many Kliptch packages, that it must be a really good speaker company.

 

[GranteedEV]

You think the Velodyne MiniVee 10 is too large? I don't know anything about subs and having to size a room for it.

Will it make the room shake too much, even at lower volumne levels?

I think it's puny and underdamped with no bass extension. And if gene's measurements of the 8" are and indicator of the 10", it's also got too high inductance making it unsuitable for high crossover points... no sub should be 5db down at 80hz!

It'll be punchy but that's about it. No realist bass or seamless integration, and don't even close to expect much below 40hz.

SO you've got a sub that does bass from 35hz (and that's pushing it) to 60hz.. that is less than an octave.

A good sub should at least handle 25hz to 100hz with meaninful output in its passband, if not all the way down to 20hz

 

[GranteedEV]

Thanks, that was a really informative post. I"ll have to do some more research. I got time. I wasn't going to buy anything until after summer is over anyway.

Guess I'll have to look someplace else other than Audioholics for a setup. Just thought since they sold so many Kliptch packages, that it must be a really good speaker company.

Audioholics store carries many brands, some of which don't even get good reviews by the Audioholics main site, and others which get rave reviews. It wouldn't hurt to purchase from there or anything, but the reason I keep recommending Aperion is because their center channels are optimal WTMW designs. Even the EMP speakers sound in Audioholics store only use sub-par MTM designs.

 

[Pupp]

I think it's puny and underdamped with no bass extension. And if gene's measurements of the 8" are and indicator of the 10", it's also got too high inductance making it unsuitable for high crossover points... no sub should be 5db down at 80hz!

It'll be punchy but that's about it. No realist bass or seamless integration, and don't even close to expect much below 40hz.

SO you've got a sub that does bass from 35hz (and that's pushing it) to 60hz.. that is less than an octave.

A good sub should at least handle 25hz to 100hz with meaninful output in its passband, if not all the way down to 20hz

Ok, I'll look into the Rythmik. I'm still digesting all the stuff the various poster's have posted on the thread. lol.

Glad I started the thread for sure. Didn't know there was so much to deciding on a home theater.

I can always get another sub in the future to get more dynamic coverage in my living room. One thing thats important.. and big reason I"m actually spending more on the sound system than the TV, is that I wanted not only high quality (for my budget), but expandability also. So any "all in one" systems are out the door for my consideration.

Anyway, thanks everybody for your input and expertise.

 

[GranteedEV]

Ok, I'll look into the Rythmik. I'm still digesting all the stuff the various poster's have posted on the thread. lol.

Glad I started the thread for sure. Didn't know there was so much to deciding on a home theater.

I can always get another sub in the future to get more dynamic coverage in my living room.

If you're only getting one sub for now with future "adding a second" plans, screw the vented FV12 and get the sealed D15

 

[Pupp]

Rear speakers

It was mentioned to get Aperion center and side speakers, but what about the rear speakers?

Edit: was going to ask about the difference between vented and sealed subwoofers, but I found an answer on a google search.

 

[GranteedEV]

It was mentioned to get Aperion center and side speakers, but what about the rear speakers?

Edit: was going to ask about the difference between vented and sealed subwoofers, but I found an answer on a google search.

You might want to post your understanding here for verification, it may or may not be factually correct. If there's one thing a google search can bring up, it's misinformation!

As for surrounds, it's up to you. If you want to spend, get the "matching" bookshelf surrounds to the Aperion center and towers. If you want to save, maybe go a step down (IE Aperion 5B to go with 6T and 6C). I would even go as far as to say that because of how surrounds are optimally placed, they can be pretty different as the room response is what you hear with surround speakers, less so the speaker response. You're not shackled to Aperion surrounds - though they won't hurt.

As for Dipole surrounds vs Monopole surrounds - it's a matter of preference and there's cases to be made for both. I would go with four monopoles in a 7.1 rather than two dipoles in a 5.1.. and yes, I would probably go with two monopoles over two dipoles as I think dipole surrounds have too much of an artificial on-axis null. Some effects benefit from the spacious effect of dipoles, some don't. Bipole surrounds... I guess would be the best of both worlds, maybe.

But that's all opinion.

If you can't choose, just go eeny meeny miney mo. and don't spend too much on them - remember, surrounds are maybe 8-10% of what you hear in most multichannel recordings including movies. Center, Left, Right, and dual subs is a lot more important

 

[Pupp]

Surrounds

I guess I'd go for the matching dipoles then. I don't plan on getting 7.1, although I do want to eventually have 5.2.

Since its only 10% or less of the sound in a movie, I think the dipoles will suit my needs better.



Difference between vented and sealed subwoofers

 

[GranteedEV]

I guess I'd go for the matching dipoles then. I don't plan on getting 7.1, although I do want to eventually have 5.2.

The main point is, don't be afraid of a step down model surround if it means better fronts.

My issue with dipole is that they sound great for rain or chirping crickets. but other surround effects - vocals, car crashes, arrows, gunshots - especially the sort which pan from front to back - just don't have the right focus to be 'right' - they become too diffuse. although i have the speakers for a 7.x i am currently doin a 5.x with monopoles and would not trade it for dipoles. a custom DIY cardioid maybe... LOL.

Difference between vented and sealed subwoofers[/QUOTE]

most sealed subs don't have flat frequency response - it tends to curve downwards. You need a linkwitz transform to equalize a sealed sub flat to your room. The consequence is that excursion (driver motion) rise must notably to produce deep bass notes (and doing so means you need 6-8 times the watts!). You need a ton of displacement to get to 20hz with a sealed sub - like my 18 driver with 33mm of xmax and over. 2000 watts- and even then i'm not doing movie reference levels of 115db at 20hz with just the one. Inefficiency is the name of the game. Most commercial sealed subs are also underdamped, meaning the box is too small for what the driver wants.

likewise, good vented subs, including the commercial internet direct offerings i named earlier, actually have flatter response in larger rooms because the vent augments the bottom end. less power is necessary to get deep bass. the tradeoff is that the box must be as much as two/three times as large. For a vented sub, driver motion is actually zero at tuning. For a low tuned vented sub driver motion is higher just above tuning but there are other advantages to such builds.

Most commercial vented subs are also often underdamped in order to sell - this is why internet direct has a big edge over the subs offered by speaker companies in sound quality.

Do good vented subs sound inferior to good sealed subs? , Maybe. On paper, the vent output comes a tad bit late. but if you tune it to 20hz, how much can you even hear such a low infrasonic frequency? You can feel it and i don't think it matters if such deep rumbles are slightly late. A vent tuned around 35hz on the other hand may be audible.

So in my opinion sealed vs vented is a difficult topic to touch and there is no set answer - both have many advantages and disadvantages. I will say that the flat response of vented subs tends to couple better to larger, open rooms and the tapering response of large sealed subs benefits from the added gains of closed rooms. Small sealed subs are a waste of power and money. Small vented subs are tuned so high that we start to hear 'vent artifacts' that we associate with inferior sound quality. Large vented subs may have too much deep bass in small rooms which means you need to EQ it flat afterwards.

I would probably use a low tuned vent for my sub but the consequence would be a 550+L enclosure - just not practical!

the one absolute is that good, LARGE drivers with LINEAR low distortion xmax and LOW inductance produce high sound quality, deep bass, and appropriate output. Don't get too hund up on enclosure design if you pick a big driver with output down to 25hz sealed or 18hz ported. both will be a good choice. Internet direct sub companies like Seaton, SvS, rythmik, funkywaves, JTR, etc all know what they are doing for the most part - making big.accurate subs designed for performance, not floor sales. Some offer multiple tuning options which may include sealed and vented modes. there is no such thing as a sub which will be too powerful - these are calibrated to blend to your main speakers. having good response up to 150hz or so is a useful thing to have though as it gives flexibilty in blending to your main speakers.

one last thing - in real rooms there really is no such thing as a monopole sub not prone to nodes and modes. You truly need multiple subs to get flat in room response.

Of course, cars, small rooms, medium rooms, open rooms, large rooms all benefit differently from different type of subs. Equalization never hurts and the best thing is to communicate with the sub companies on what will work best for your room out of their offerings and your budget. they won't nor.ally try to upsell you.