Comparing Subwoofers

[Brian Alexander]

Putting on my body armor because I feel like this will be a hot button topic...

I am moving into a new place this summer. Rather large living room (appx 3500 cubic feet) and am shopping around for subwoofers. I thought I had my mind made up, but keep feeling like there's something I'm missing, and really would like to avoid any sort of buyer's remorse should I figure out what (if anything) I overlooked before pulling the trigger on a high-quality yet still affordable sub. And, i will be buying a second matching sub later this summer before anyone asks.


So, would like some second opinions.

PB-2000 by SVS versus VTF-2 MK5 by HSU

On paper, they seem VERY similar to me. HSU has a more powerful amp, but the frequency response and output seem rather similar based on what I've looked at (I'm still a novice, so my assessment might be a total wash). But, the price difference is $200 between the PB-2000 and the VTF-2 Mk5.

What is that $200 extra for the PB-2000 buying? Warranty for SVS is 5/5 years for driver/amp, HSU is 7/2 years for driver/amp. SVS does have a 45 day listening period and upgrades within a year, but does that equal $200 worth to people?

Interestingly enough, HSU's VTF-3, the 15 inch version of the VTF-2, is very similarly priced to the PB-2000 (Exact same price, but you have to pay for shipping on the VTF-3). VTF-3 has an even bigger amp and a larger driver that gets similar frequency response, but a decent amount louder due to the larger driver. I don't need this extra volume because I value my hearing and relationships with future neighbors, but still pointing this out as something I noticed, adding to my curiosity.

I've heard nothing but good things about SVS. Are HSU units not constructed to the same standards as SVS? Or, am I paying for the name? I feel like people fanboy out over SVS a little much because it's all i hear about. I'm not contending that they aren't good... I'm just wondering is the hype worth the money for a comparable unit? Or, is there a tangible benefit the PB-2000 has over the VTF-2 that justifies the higher price that I am not understanding?

Also, other recommendations are more than welcome. $800 is what I have to spend at the moment, but I'm still very bang-for-my-buck conscious.

 

[shadyJ]

The PB-2000 will do deep bass a bit cleaner than the VTF-2, but for the most part, they are similar in performance. Something else to consider at $800 is the Monoprice Monolith 12" THX Ultra. It will do deep bass a bit better than the VTF-2 and PB-2000, but again not a huge difference in performance, but its build is insane. It weighs nearly 100 lbs. and that is crazy for a ported 12".

As for the VTF-3 and your hearing, it wouldn't be able to damage your hearing unless you put your ear next to the driver and really cranked it. Bass isn't nearly as harmful to hearing as loudness in the 1 kHz to 4 kHz range, that is where you have to be careful. Regarding your neighbors, if they are that sensitive to loud bass, all of these other subs are going to cause problems as well. If you want to limit the headroom for your neighbors' sake, I would be looking at the 10" equivalents in these lines, the PB-1000, VTF-1 mk3, and Monolith 10" THX Select. However, they aren't as fun as the 12"s and definitely aren't as fun as the 15"s. They still sound nice though.

 

[Brian Alexander]

The commentary about neighbors and hearing was more or less a throw-away comment. I just can't see a reason why I'd need dual 15's in a 3500 cubic ft room. That said, I haven't ever experienced dual 15s in such a room... so I might need it and not even realize it, yet!

Your comment is similar to ones I had seen floating around similar threads. I couldn't ever find out why the price difference was what it was; the analysis seemed to be the VTF-2 would do cleaner mid-bass where the PB-2000 would win in the <25 Hz area.

I am very intrigued by the Monolith, will have to look around and learn more about it.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Putting on my body armor because I feel like this will be a hot button topic...

What makes you think so? It's not a hot topic at all. Very legitimate question and your choices are already some of best performers and values out there.

I am moving into a new place this summer. Rather large living room (appx 3500 cubic feet) and am shopping around for subwoofers.

Is your living room is open to other spaces, like kitchen, dining room and/or family rooms?
The subwoofer doesn't "know" if one room ended if the room is not sealed by walls and doors. You have to try to provide entire open volume to get a more accurate recommendation, but If my guess is right, then you do need a bigger boat sub

 

[Brian Alexander]

It has three entrances, one to the dining-room area, one into the hallway, and the other into a foyer for the front entrance. The room is about 21x18x10, so closer to 3800 not including the foyer and hallway, which aren't particularly large in comparison to the main living room.

I can and will add a second sub later. I definitely wouldn't go below a 12" for this size space, but given I'll be running dual subs at some point within the next few months, I feel like I'd not get the true value for the VTF-3 given its frequency range is the same as the VTF-2, just with greater SPL. Does that mean lower distortion at equivalent SPL output? I think so, but someone correct me if I am incorrect on that.

 

[shadyJ]

Does that mean lower distortion at equivalent SPL output? I think so, but someone correct me if I am incorrect on that.

Yes, almost always. A sub like the VTF-3 will play cleaner for the same SPL. The reason is the coil does not have to move as far from the center of the gap where excursion will be very tightly controlled. To put it another way, the more excursion you get, the more distortion you incur. This is not an absolute rule, but it will be true like 95% of the time at the very least.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

It has three entrances, one to the dining-room area, one into the hallway, and the other into a foyer for the front entrance. The room is about 21x18x10, so closer to 3800 not including the foyer and hallway, which aren't particularly large in comparison to the main living room.

I can and will add a second sub later. I definitely wouldn't go below a 12" for this size space, but given I'll be running dual subs at some point within the next few months, I feel like I'd not get the true value for the VTF-3 given its frequency range is the same as the VTF-2, just with greater SPL. Does that mean lower distortion at equivalent SPL output? I think so, but someone correct me if I am incorrect on that.

With additional spaces (foyer and hallway) your total space volume probably shoots over 4k cu ft for sure.
In this case, especially since you're going to buy only one sub now, I think going with VTF-3 is no brainer.

 

[MR.MAGOO]

Thanks to the OP for opening this discussion. My studio apt. is approx. 4760 cu. ft., so should I start subtracting the cubic footage of cutouts (bathroom, closets, sealed off areas) the area has 6' tall bookcases as a room partition, ceiling is 9', to get an idea of which pair of subs to get? I'm replacing a pair of Definitive Technology ProSub 800's, and considering SVS or HSU, no idea which model to get.

 

[snakeeyes]

It has three entrances, one to the dining-room area, one into the hallway, and the other into a foyer for the front entrance. The room is about 21x18x10, so closer to 3800 not including the foyer and hallway, which aren't particularly large in comparison to the main living room.

I can and will add a second sub later. I definitely wouldn't go below a 12" for this size space, but given I'll be running dual subs at some point within the next few months, I feel like I'd not get the true value for the VTF-3 given its frequency range is the same as the VTF-2, just with greater SPL. Does that mean lower distortion at equivalent SPL output? I think so, but someone correct me if I am incorrect on that.

HSU VTF3 is a good bet. Also the HSU ULS15 as well....however you meantioned your budget is $800 and with shipping both exceed $800 a bit. If you plan to possibly go to duals, don’t forget about the Rythmik LVX12. I have really loved mine as a single sub in 2600 cu ft. It’s $739 including shipping. 2 of them would be sweet! Super clean bass.

 

[Brian Alexander]

The VTF-3 will be a tad over given shipping, I'm more or less forgiving that fact because they have a small $40 off sale, so it's only nominally over my $800 pudget at roughly $860 shipped.

Mr. Magoo: My guess purely based on what has been posted in this thread is that the more accurate you are, the better. The goal is to get precise cubic foot measurements, although there's definitely a cut-off point where it becomes unnecessary to get down to the nitty gritty things like subtracting out desks, wall segments, counters, etc. If you're at 4700-ish ft^3 just based on floorplan dimensions, I can't imagine the shape of the room would subtract out a significant portion. I think you're still looking in the 3k-5k ft^3 realm regardless.

But, of course... I'm the one who is just now learning these things thanks to these other fine folks, but that's my best educated guess.

 

[BryceH]

With additional spaces (foyer and hallway) your total space volume probably shoots over 4k cu ft for sure.
In this case, especially since you're going to buy only one sub now, I think going with VTF-3 is no brainer.

+1 ... 4k ft^3 is a decent amount of space. Go with the biggest sub you can get now and add the second when you can... you'll appreciate the extra headroom and cleaner bass that comes with it. I dont know about other people on here, but ive found as time goes on my bass preferences have increased.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[2channel lover]

The commentary about neighbors and hearing was more or less a throw-away comment. I just can't see a reason why I'd need dual 15's in a 3500 cubic ft room. That said, I haven't ever experienced dual 15s in such a room... so I might need it and not even realize it, yet!

Your comment is similar to ones I had seen floating around similar threads. I couldn't ever find out why the price difference was what it was; the analysis seemed to be the VTF-2 would do cleaner mid-bass where the PB-2000 would win in the <25 Hz area.

I am very intrigued by the Monolith, will have to look around and learn more about it.

My space is smaller than yours (2800 cf roughly)...as far as SVS, HSU, PSA...there are a lot of great subs on the market....I wrestled with a similar decision, but within the same brand...VTF-3 mk5, or VTF-15h mk2...the sales guy said, the 15H mk2 will be more than enough sub, but you need to have flexibility on placement you could likely have some dead spots otherwise....particularly the seating not in the sweet spot seat.

I bought two of the 3 mk5 subs. They're beasts when called upon to be, but otherwise they just do their job no isolation or dead issues regardless of where you sit.

 

[j_garcia]

My room is about 5K ft^3 and I have a single sub. That sub is a dual 15" sub however. My previous space was about this size too and I had a single 15" Tempest. I would really not go less than a 15" or dual 12s in a room that size.

 

[snakeeyes]

Quality bass is an investment... Some prefer duals and others prefer single larger subs in realation to the volume of the space... And don’t discount the likelihood you may double down and add another identical sub because you become a bassaholic... Stay on budget and get a good deal so you feel good about the purchase and enjoy your investment!
Hopefully there is a happy wife/ happy life balance as well. There is a reason some of us have chosen to setup a dedicated theater room away from the WAF and away from the open spaces that require massive sub investment... Long live the Man Cave / Home Theater!

 

[joshk03]

I couldn't ever find out why the price difference was what it was;

I'm not a sub expert at all, but I do have a college degree in business. It's common for people assume retail pricing is simple, and that competitors only look at other competitors to set the price. That's not the case. As a quick example, maybe businessA found that lowering their price didn't increase units sold enough to cover the lost money. Maybe business B found that lowering their price caused units to sell faster than they could build them. That sounds like a good problem, but it's not. To build them faster you need more employees, real-estate, customer support staff, etc. It might be smarter to intentionally lose sales by raising their price.

 

[lovinthehd]

My room is about 5K ft^3 and I have a single sub. That sub is a dual 15" sub however. My previous space was about this size too and I had a single 15" Tempest. I would really not go less than a 15" or dual 12s in a room that size.

Glad to see your old Empire is still plugging along! Mine is too, altho in 6.5k cuft I use three sealed 18"s to supplement it

 

[KEW]

What is that $200 extra for the PB-2000 buying? Warranty for SVS is 5/5 years for driver/amp, HSU is 7/2 years for driver/amp. SVS does have a 45 day listening period and upgrades within a year, but does that equal $200 worth to people?

How much the 45 day trial with free return shipping is worth to the customer varies with every customer. If you had already bought a PB-2000 6 months ago and are now buying a second one, it is pretty worthless since you know exactly what you are buying.

However, to answer your question, Hsu is generally a higher value on the basis of sound quality per dollar. If you are worried about how perfect the finish of your big black box is, then SVS probably has more worth to you - they tend to put some extra effort into their finish while Hsu is more blunt about being a simple but sturdy black box.

So a portion of the SVS premium is for:
1) Finish
2) 5 year warranty on electronics (they definitely see additional claims)
3) Risk free 45 day trial (again a real cost)

Unfortunately you are also paying for the fact that SVS is no longer a strictly ID company. Now that they are distributing through BestBuy Magnolia room, I would assume BB made them sign a contract that SVS direct would not sell gear at a less expensive price than what BB charges...otherwise BB would become a free network of showrooms for SVS's direct sales. And obviously BB has built-in their own profit before taking on SVS.
This would suggest that SVS is making a pretty nice profit on their direct sales (since they are getting BB's costs and profits)! And it does seem that SVS got more expensive post BB distribution!
SVS makes good products, but IMHO; Hsu, Rythmik, PSA, Monolith, and Outlaw all provide better value.

 

[2channel lover]

My room is about 5K ft^3 and I have a single sub. That sub is a dual 15" sub however. My previous space was about this size too and I had a single 15" Tempest. I would really not go less than a 15" or dual 12s in a room that size.

Nice.

Two vs one sub imo is more about evening out the bass more than needing two subs for impact.

Lord knows I didn't need two, music is my main entertainment and even bass throughout the space was my objective...I played around with one on the TV wall initially, then both with one near field and one on the TV wall for a few days, but localization issues were gnawing at me so I put both on the TV wall...problem fixed.

 

[j_garcia]

I get the opposite though. Rather than dips, I get big humps away from the main listening position, where the bass is overpowering, so I have to adjust. Though the room is large, I don't really have a spot for a second sub, so the Empire was my best option.

 

[2channel lover]

I get the opposite though. Rather than dips, I get big humps away from the main listening position, where the bass is overpowering, so I have to adjust. Though the room is large, I don't really have a spot for a second sub, so the Empire was my best option.

Yep at the end of the day, we're all at the mercy of our listening spaces.

I heard a system several years ago...Five..B&W 805s with four 15" subs...amazing multi-channel music, but 2.1 it was awesome as well.

I'm kind of out of the hifi equipment purchases for a while, but I could see adding a 3rd near field sub behind the main seating in the future.