comparing Klipsch RP vs Ultras

[KEW]

The bookshelf speakers really did well as main speakers with the Hsu's picking up the bottom, but the voice that won't stop drove me to get the towers and an amp, moving the BS to surround duty.

I love it!
I'm stealing that phrase!

 

[Hetfield]

I love it!
I'm stealing that phrase!

Oh no, we all have voices in our head in this hobby? I'm glad it's not just me actually, I feel better now.

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[KEW]

Oh no, we all have voices in our head in this hobby? I'm glad it's not just me actually, I feel better now.

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I'm not sure the voice always comes from my head, but we'll go with it...

 

[Hetfield]

I'm not sure the voice always comes from my head, but we'll go with it...

Yikes, good luck with all that.

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[yepimonfire]

Edit: misread post

 

[yepimonfire]

@TheWarrior

I have no loyalty to klipsch. I just prefer the controlled dispersion, and high efficiency of horn loaded speakers. I was never a klipsch fan until their latest reference series came out. Reference II series and all older offerings were painfully bright, and had narrow dispersion at the highest frequencies, leading to crappy off axis performance. Their Reference and Premier series uses the same technology used in the k402 horns used in their cinema speakers, which offers not only controlled dispersion, but constant coverage (or directivity) across the entire frequency range, giving a 90° coverage pattern (-6dB) up to 12khz, and a 45° pattern up to 20khz. Not only has the beaming issue been solved, but their revamped horn design has eliminated the resonances responsible for the harsh treble, making them much more accurate.

A typical dome tweeter has a very wide dispersion at the xover frequency, narrowing as the frequency increases, once the wavelength reaches the diameter of the driver, it begins beaming. Even if a speaker's crossover has been designed to give a better dispersion profile, say 40° at 16khz, the uneven polar response affects the sound of the speaker when placed into a room, even if all listeners are seated within the listening window. Horns and waveguides do two things. 1, they control the dispersion, if a horn loaded tweeter is crossed over at 1.8khz, and the horns coverage pattern is 90x90, 1.8khz is only going to radiate in a 90° pattern, a 1" dome without a waveguide could radiate the same frequency with as much as a 180° or higher dispersion. With every increase, that angle gets narrower. This has an effect on how the speaker sounds in room, since we not only hear the speaker, but the reflections. Horns and waveguides do a good job correcting this problem. Klipsch speakers are the only speakers I've owned that do not take on a different sound character in different rooms.

JBL and other Harman offerings almost always feature either a waveguide or horn to control dispersion and directivity, and I would not hesitate to recommend them. I'm a klipsch owner because their offerings fit my needs at a price I could afford. Much of the really good stuff from JBL is way out of my price range.

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[shadyJ]

@TheWarrior

I have no loyalty to klipsch. I just prefer the controlled dispersion, and high efficiency of horn loaded speakers. I was never a klipsch fan until their latest reference series came out. Reference II series and all older offerings were painfully bright, and had narrow dispersion at the highest frequencies, leading to crappy off axis performance. Their Reference and Premier series uses the same technology used in the k402 horns used in their cinema speakers, which offers not only controlled dispersion, but constant coverage (or directivity) across the entire frequency range, giving a 90° coverage pattern (-6dB) up to 12khz, and a 45° pattern up to 20khz. Not only has the beaming issue been solved, but their revamped horn design has eliminated the resonances responsible for the harsh treble, making them much more accurate.

A typical dome tweeter has a very wide dispersion at the xover frequency, narrowing as the frequency increases, once the wavelength reaches the diameter of the driver, it begins beaming. Even if a speaker's crossover has been designed to give a better dispersion profile, say 40° at 16khz, the uneven polar response affects the sound of the speaker when placed into a room, even if all listeners are seated within the listening window. Horns and waveguides do two things. 1, they control the dispersion, if a horn loaded tweeter is crossed over at 1.8khz, and the horns coverage pattern is 90x90, 1.8khz is only going to radiate in a 90° pattern, a 1" dome without a waveguide could radiate the same frequency with as much as a 180° or higher dispersion. With every increase, that angle gets narrower. This has an effect on how the speaker sounds in room, since we not only hear the speaker, but the reflections. Horns and waveguides do a good job correcting this problem. Klipsch speakers are the only speakers I've owned that do not take on a different sound character in different rooms.

I think there are some over-generalization in this explanation. Dome tweeters on a flat baffle or shallow waveguide and horn-loaded tweeters can have all kinds of behaviors. I would agree that horns generally don't have wide dispersion, but even then it depends on the horn. Some of the SEOS horns, for example, have relatively wide dispersion patterns for horns. Tweeters can have different properties that affect their dispersion, like rigidity, shape, VC diameter, and other parameters. Mount them in a waveguide and you can get all kinds of dispersion patterns, depending on the geometry of the waveguide, and horns are just another type of waveguide. I wouldn't assume too much about a speaker's behavior until I see measurements.

 

[TheWarrior]

@TheWarrior

I have no loyalty to klipsch. I just prefer the controlled dispersion, and high efficiency of horn loaded speakers. I was never a klipsch fan until their latest reference series came out. Reference II series and all older offerings were painfully bright, and had narrow dispersion at the highest frequencies, leading to crappy off axis performance. Their Reference and Premier series uses the same technology used in the k402 horns used in their cinema speakers, which offers not only controlled dispersion, but constant coverage (or directivity) across the entire frequency range, giving a 90° coverage pattern (-6dB) up to 12khz, and a 45° pattern up to 20khz. Not only has the beaming issue been solved, but their revamped horn design has eliminated the resonances responsible for the harsh treble, making them much more accurate.

A typical dome tweeter has a very wide dispersion at the xover frequency, narrowing as the frequency increases, once the wavelength reaches the diameter of the driver, it begins beaming. Even if a speaker's crossover has been designed to give a better dispersion profile, say 40° at 16khz, the uneven polar response affects the sound of the speaker when placed into a room, even if all listeners are seated within the listening window. Horns and waveguides do two things. 1, they control the dispersion, if a horn loaded tweeter is crossed over at 1.8khz, and the horns coverage pattern is 90x90, 1.8khz is only going to radiate in a 90° pattern, a 1" dome without a waveguide could radiate the same frequency with as much as a 180° or higher dispersion. With every increase, that angle gets narrower. This has an effect on how the speaker sounds in room, since we not only hear the speaker, but the reflections. Horns and waveguides do a good job correcting this problem. Klipsch speakers are the only speakers I've owned that do not take on a different sound character in different rooms.

JBL and other Harman offerings almost always feature either a waveguide or horn to control dispersion and directivity, and I would not hesitate to recommend them. I'm a klipsch owner because their offerings fit my needs at a price I could afford. Much of the really good stuff from JBL is way out of my price range.

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Wow, I have a fan!!!

I am glad you love your speakers, I am glad everyone loves the sound reproduction equipment they own. It seems comments I have made to you about correcting your marketing based 'knowledge' with actual understanding of the science of sound reproduction has really resonated with you.

Unfortunately you're still trying the same thing, expecting different results.

Horns are waveguides. I believe I've made a mistake in trying to compare them myself, before, but there it is.

'Controlled dispersion' is a marketing term. Klipsch horns are not constant directivity which is obvious from the amount of toe in required to satisfy people on the same couch with the same sound. Neither you or anyone else has taken measurements that can prove otherwise. Their horns only serve to limit propagation loss over distance, like in a commercial theater setting.

JBL's latest waveguides found on the 3/7/M2 series are true constant directivity horns offering a very broad listening window(coverage). You can prove this to yourself by having someone pivot a single speaker in different directions and hear how little the sound changes. But even that has it's limits as no horn offers a flat-measured directivity index up to 20khz.

Horns and waveguides do two things. 1, they control the dispersion, if a horn loaded tweeter is crossed over at 1.8khz, and the horns coverage pattern is 90x90, 1.8khz is only going to radiate in a 90° pattern, a 1" dome without a waveguide could radiate the same frequency with as much as a 180° or higher dispersion.

When crossing to a tweeter, especially if the design requires a low crossover, there will be a sharp DI increase at the crossover. A proper waveguide can limit this effect. A waveguide can also limit the propagation loss which would be seen in measurements as to how high in frequency the response gets before amplitude reduces. A good dome will sound almost the same at 30deg off axis, maybe a little more, but 180deg?

With every increase, that angle gets narrower. This has an effect on how the speaker sounds in room, since we not only hear the speaker, but the reflections. Horns and waveguides do a good job correcting this problem. Klipsch speakers are the only speakers I've owned that do not take on a different sound character in different rooms.

Hearing direct sound (on axis) plus reflected sounds is natural, not a problem. Harman has performed plenty of tests that found listeners prefer first reflections to be intact from side walls as it contributes to Listener Envelopment and Apparent Source Width. Other tests confirm people can listen through rooms, above the transition frequency using the same speaker in different rooms. So the room is not the fundamental problem.

Budget plays in to everyone's choices. One advantage the JBL 3/7 series offers is to limit your need for amplification as they are all active. Please note that I don't own any Harman products, but I have endless respect for their research division, and have thoroughly enjoyed hearing the above mentioned products. But I would encourage you to go out and listen to anything and everything you can to broaden your perspective. I also encourage you to pick up the latest edition of 'Sound Reproduction - The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms' when it comes out in a couple weeks. You have an obvious passion for audio, why not make the best of it with knowledge derived from decades of research?

 

[2channel lover]

the voice that won't stop drove me to get the towers and an amp

That voice is working me over for a 3rd sub! Lol!

 

[Pogre]

That voice is working me over for a 3rd sub! Lol!

Lately it's been whispering in my ear "you need a bigger tv" over and over...

 

[j_garcia]

That voice has been saying "I want a TV in the bedroom". And that voice isn't in my head, she pretty much said we need another TV lol. The voice in my head said "OLED for the main sysetm, stick current one in bedroom" haha.

 

[TheWarrior]

Lately it's been whispering in my ear "you need a bigger tv" over and over...

I looked at your HT pics again... I still maintain big TV's, even 65's, are a real hassle. Not sure what size your current is, but due to your windows, it might be worthwhile leaving the TV as is and saving for a decent motorized PJ screen. Some simple DIY wood working can give you an elegant means of concealing it when not in use. But given how far you've already gone with achieving great sound, it would seem the only match for that kind of progress would be projection!

 

[Pogre]

That voice has been saying "I want a TV in the bedroom". And that voice isn't in my head, she pretty much said we need another TV lol. The voice in my head said "OLED for the main sysetm, stick current one in bedroom" haha.

Ha ha! I started talking tv's and my wife pointed out that our stove and fridge are both almost 20 years old and I've been spending thousands on audio...

We bought a new fridge and stove on Tuesday. We take delivery in a couple weeks. Come tv time the gloves are off now!

 

[Pogre]

I looked at your HT pics again... I still maintain big TV's, even 65's, are a real hassle. Not sure what size your current is, but due to your windows, it might be worthwhile leaving the TV as is and saving for a decent motorized PJ screen. Some simple DIY wood working can give you an elegant means of concealing it when not in use. But given how far you've already gone with achieving great sound, it would seem the only match for that kind of progress would be projection!

Thanks for the kind words!

I haven't ruled out a projector. I'm not in a huge hurry so I'm allowing myself plenty of time to research and learn what I need to know before buying something. My current tv is 58".

 

[Hetfield]

Ha ha! I started talking tv's and my wife pointed out that our stove and fridge are both almost 20 years old and I've been spending thousands on audio...

We bought a new fridge and stove on Tuesday. We take delivery in a couple weeks. Come tv time the gloves are off now!

Ah the old pay back huh. We've all been through that.

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[TheWarrior]

Ah the old pay back huh. We've all been through that.

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Food is an essential part of the listening experience, IMO.... ask the guys who have had my ribs!

 

[2channel lover]

Lately it's been whispering in my ear "you need a bigger tv" over and over...

I'm starting to hear things about upping the ante on my rears already...I think the R5Bi are fine for surround duty for movies but as I've invested into multichannel audio, some send a lot more content to the back than I was expecting. I'm wondering if a pair of mini Phils back there will yield more detail.

But, I'm battling the voice right now. Progress is picking up rapidly on the Salks I see on the online progress meter so I'm going to let the dust settle for minute until they come in. When they do I'll move the B&Ws (those are going with my son when he moves out) to the back and play some of those multichannel SACDs again and see if I'm really missing anything. I do feel I'll eventually lose that battle to the voice on the 3rd sub though.

TVs...yep I feel you. My wife likes making guest more comfortable than I do. We moved our Sony 42" from the master into the guestroom when my mother-in-law bought her new place and replaced it with a Sony 55"...big difference!

 

[2channel lover]

I looked at your HT pics again... I still maintain big TV's, even 65's, are a real hassle. Not sure what size your current is, but due to your windows, it might be worthwhile leaving the TV as is and saving for a decent motorized PJ screen. Some simple DIY wood working can give you an elegant means of concealing it when not in use. But given how far you've already gone with achieving great sound, it would seem the only match for that kind of progress would be projection!

I'd go the other way on that one Warrior. 65s & > do require two people to move them around, but these LEDs are not heavy. I have a 65" LED in the sunroom...wish I'd done a 75" now.

It's been awhile, 2 houses removed from it now, but I had a projector (1080p) in my basement HT with a 110" screen...it was great, but always something going on with it. I will say though...it had the wow factor...very 1st buyer that came to see the house, her agent told as soon as she saw that HT room, she said sold if the HT was included....paid 50% of her closing cost, but got full boat for the house.

 

[KEW]

It's been awhile, 2 houses removed from it now, but I had a projector (1080p) in my basement HT with a 110" screen...it was great, but always something going on with it. I will say though...it had the wow factor...very 1st buyer that came to see the house, her agent told as soon as she saw that HT room, she said sold if the HT was included....paid 50% of her closing cost, but got full boat for the house.

Nice that they recognized that you had invested the effort to do it right, and it makes a lot of sense to leave a good HT in place once setup properly.
On your projection issues, what are we talking? 15 years ago?
I believe the projector market has seen some changes over the last decade!

 

[KEW]

Hearing direct sound (on axis) plus reflected sounds is natural, not a problem. Harman has performed plenty of tests that found listeners prefer first reflections to be intact from side walls as it contributes to Listener Envelopment and Apparent Source Width.

This all makes total sense to me as what would is ideal.

Other tests confirm people can listen through rooms, above the transition frequency using the same speaker in different rooms. So the room is not the fundamental problem.

So, if the room was not the fundamental problem, why did the Phil3's (which are great speakers in most rooms) sound so poor in my living room? I thought it was the reflections coming from the alcove to the 1/2 bath and MBR off of my LR causing inconsistent reflections between L & R side resulting in jumbled arrivals.
How can you rule out the possibility of the room being the biggest problem?