Combining 2 Acoustimass 16 serie II for a Dolby Atmos system

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Fafaneboat

Audioholic Intern
Hi everyone,

I've 2 complete Acoustimass 16 systems (12 speakers total + 2 modules/subs) that I want to connect to an Onkyo TX-RZ630 for a 5.2.4 Dolby Atmos installation (so 3 speakers won't be used).

I need advices on how to combine both systems.

1- I may plug one AM for the left speakers with LFE 1 and the other for the right speakers with LFE 2 but then wich should I use for the front center speaker?

2- Or it's best to use one AM for surround speakers with LFE 1 and the other for the 4 ceiling units with LFE 2 but then, how will that sound when listening to music

3- Could/should I use 4 speakers (in series) for the 2 front channels? (with pros and cons )

Please note that I don't consider me as an audiophile but I really enjoy bass heavy musics and Star War films kind of movies. (I may also listen to any other type of musics as humor please...)

Don't be rude on me, I just want to experiment on a limited budget and I had a great opportunity for a second top shape used AM16.

I'm pleased with my 14 years young bought brand new AM and wanted more bass then, with all those speakers, my old Pioneer VSX-1018AH wasn't up to the task anymore.



Thanks for your valuable comments and advices
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
LFE connection on the avr would simply provide LFE channel (and redirected bass via bass management), not a full range signal, and believe on that model both sub pre-outs carry the same mono signal too (and even if different signal, it would still be mono and limited range, just separately adjustable for level/delay.....they're not "stereo" in any case). These Bose modules are not really intended to work with normal avrs. The Bose speakers are generally going to hold you back....they're not interchangeable components particularly as we generally use/prefer around here. At best they might have bass modules, but they're not subs.
 
F

Fafaneboat

Audioholic Intern
LFE connection on the avr would simply provide LFE channel (and redirected bass via bass management), not a full range signal, and believe on that model both sub pre-outs carry the same mono signal too (and even if different signal, it would still be mono and limited range, just separately adjustable for level/delay.....they're not "stereo" in any case). These Bose modules are not really intended to work with normal avrs. The Bose speakers are generally going to hold you back....they're not interchangeable components particularly as we generally use/prefer around here. At best they might have bass modules, but they're not subs.

Hi, thanks for the quick response. I mentioned LFE just because those modules serve two purposes, providing omnidirectional bass to simulate big speakers from tiny units then they process LFE signals (mono) for special effects. I'm satisfied with what these AM16 produce sound wise. I just want more bass and more speakers for an Atmos system. Since those twin cubes are good at delivering an acceptable downmixed 6.1 from my old 7.1 Pioneer receiver, I'm confident they'll do the job for sound coming from above. I just want to make the most of my hardware connection wise...
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Hi, thanks for the quick response. I mentioned LFE just because those modules serve two purposes, providing omnidirectional bass to simulate big speakers from tiny units then they process LFE signals (mono) for special effects. I'm satisfied with what these AM16 produce sound wise. I just want more bass and more speakers for an Atmos system. Since those twin cubes are good at delivering an acceptable downmixed 6.1 from my old 7.1 Pioneer receiver, I'm confident they'll do the job for sound coming from above. I just want to make the most of my hardware connection wise...
The best you can do is use the individual satellites as individual speakers and changing the wiring to accommodate connection to the avr's amp. You could use just the bass modules as "subs" but they're simply not that good at it, they're fairly weaksauce in that sense.
 
F

Fafaneboat

Audioholic Intern
Hi, thanks for the quick response. I mentioned LFE just because those modules serve two purposes, providing omnidirectional bass to simulate big speakers from tiny units then they process LFE signals (mono) for special effects. I'm satisfied with what these AM16 produce sound wise. I just want more bass and more speakers for an Atmos system. Since those twin cubes are good at delivering an acceptable downmixed 6.1 from my old 7.1 Pioneer receiver, I'm confident they'll do the job for sound coming from above. I just want to make the most of my hardware connection wise...
Note that having two identical system will insure all speakers are virtually the same thus will ease any calibration
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Note that having two identical system will insure all speakers are virtually the same thus will ease any calibration
Maybe if you sit in the exact center of the satellites being the same....but really not that important to have fully matching set, you have an avr that can accommodate such (and having these sats as mains is very limiting actually).
 
F

Fafaneboat

Audioholic Intern
The best you can do is use the individual satellites as individual speakers and changing the wiring to accommodate connection to the avr's amp. You could use just the bass modules as "subs" but they're simply not that good at it, they're fairly weaksauce in that sense.
This can't be done, the double cubes have to be hooked to the modules, they just don't work without. Let's forget about the modules being subs and think about they are tjust part of a component speaker system (like in cars) with an integrated sub if you will.
I'm looking at the best way to plug those (then large) speaker to the receiver. Since AM16 are 6 (simulated) large speakers with an integrated sub, I have to figure out how to use them intelligently on a 9.2 amplified channel receiver. So is it best 1 system for left speakers the other for right speakers (being front, side, height 1 and 2) or better 1 system for the 5 surround channels and the other for the 4 remaining ones?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Yes, you can use the sats direct by changing the connectors, but they may need some special dsp from the module thingy now that you mention it, altho supposedly they're 8 ohm but in typical Bose fashion no real useable specs are provided. I guess the best you can do what you want is to split up your connections between the two modules as evenly as possible, left vs right makes sense, and label your connections well if not using the same all the way thru, it's a compromised setup one way or the other. Hope you didn't pay too much for the Bose stuff....its somewhat a dead end in general. Good luck, tho.
 
F

Fafaneboat

Audioholic Intern
Yes, you can use the sats direct by changing the connectors, but they may need some special dsp from the module thingy now that you mention it, altho supposedly they're 8 ohm but in typical Bose fashion no real useable specs are provided. I guess the best you can do what you want is to split up your connections between the two modules as evenly as possible, left vs right makes sense, and label your connections well if not using the same all the way thru, it's a compromised setup one way or the other. Hope you didn't pay too much for the Bose stuff....its somewhat a dead end in general. Good luck, tho.
I think they are 6 ohms on the amp side, I think I'll do that, left vs right, it makes probably more sense. One is gonna drive the center channel, that's it. I'm gonna try to double front and side speakers to see how it sounds, music wise.

Thanks
 
F

Fafaneboat

Audioholic Intern
I thought this was a Home Theater/ Audio forum.
View attachment 43470
There are a lot of Bose haters all around and it's been this way fore decades!!
But I must say that after maybe a month of on and off tuning and tweaking my setup was sounding amazing. I must admit however that I'm optimized for tv so music may sometimes sound off for some enthusiasts!
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Doubling up channels isn't generally recommended due resulting acoustic issues....and possibly undue stress on the amp.
 
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F

Fafaneboat

Audioholic Intern
Doubling up channels isn't generally recommended due resulting acoustic issues....and possibly undue stress on the amp.
Thanks Lovinthehd for your answers, I appreciate!

Another question about doubling up channels. I was going to wire two speakers in serial thus making 12ohms draw on each doubled channels (amp good 4 to 16ohms and 215watts at 6 ohms so less than 100 once fitted) should be ok stress wise but what kind of accoustic issues are you referring to? I thought doubling two exact same speakers would double air displacement without creating weird things.
Would you mind trying to tell me more?
 
F

Fafaneboat

Audioholic Intern
Maybe if you sit in the exact center of the satellites being the same....but really not that important to have fully matching set, you have an avr that can accommodate such (and having these sats as mains is very limiting actually).
I meant calibration should be easier because only distance from listening position will have to be adjusted (not size and range) and those little twin cubes combined with the well adjusted/balanced mids & bass from the 3 drivers module actually sound individually like full range speakers (In my relatively small space and to my ears) so I do like them.
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic General
Interesting experiment. I’d go with your Left Side to Right Side idea and not try to double anything up. Make sure to set speakers to Large in the Onkyo with subwoofer set to Yes. Good luck.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
You really can only use one set of the Boase AMs.

Bose is very proprietary. So the AVR signal will be processed by the Bose bass module. The crossover to those small speakers is at a much higher frequency than the bass management of an AVR. However the bass module will mix in the LFE signal.

You can not wire those speakers in series, as if you alter the impedance you will drastically alter the crossover frequency between the satellites and the bass module. This crossover in those Bose units to the satellites is passive. So the impedance can not be altered.

As with all Bose units you can only use them as intended.

I really don't understand why you are so committed to Bose. The fact is, yes fact, they are not very good. The have a an exaggerated bass in a fairly narrow band to cover for a large frequency gap between the bass module and the satellites. In addition there is no low bass. This gap is known as the Bose hole. This is not just my opinion, but is well documented and known. If you are in any way used to natural sound systems, the shortcomings of these Bose systems are glaring. So there are very good reasons why these systems are on the not recommended list.

The Bose hole.

1610081331024.jpeg


That is the very definition of one note bass. That tends to be a problem with all higher order coupled cavity bass systems not just Bose.

This is a typical Bose bass module arrangement.



That is a sixth order bandpass loading. That is considered high order and not recommended.

This is where it gets technical, but there is also a question of bass quality, which relates to Q, which is related to bass quality. Low Q systems have a nice tight bass, but high Q ones have a "fluid" bass. Now in these coupled cavity systems if Q is low, the bandwidth of the bass in low and tends to the one note bass I was referring too. As you widen the bandwidth Q increases and bass quality of the bass decreases. As you increase the order of these coupled cavity systems then this problem I have outlined is increasingly exacerbated.
 
F

Fafaneboat

Audioholic Intern
You really can only use one set of the Boase AMs.

Bose is very proprietary. So the AVR signal will be processed by the Bose bass module. The crossover to those small speakers is at a much higher frequency than the bass management of an AVR. However the bass module will mix in the LFE signal.

You can not wire those speakers in series, as if you alter the impedance you will drastically alter the crossover frequency between the satellites and the bass module. This crossover in those Bose units to the satellites is passive. So the impedance can not be altered.

As with all Bose units you can only use them as intended.

I really don't understand why you are so committed to Bose. The fact is, yes fact, they are not very good. The have a an exaggerated bass in a fairly narrow band to cover for a large frequency gap between the bass module and the satellites. In addition there is no low bass. This gap is known as the Bose hole. This is not just my opinion, but is well documented and known. If you are in any way used to natural sound systems, the shortcomings of these Bose systems are glaring. So there are very good reasons why these systems are on the not recommended list.

The Bose hole.

View attachment 43472

That is the very definition of one note bass. That tends to be a problem with all higher order coupled cavity bass systems not just Bose.

This is a typical Bose bass module arrangement.



That is a sixth order bandpass loading. That is considered high order and not recommended.

This is where it gets technical, but there is also a question of bass quality, which relates to Q, which is related to bass quality. Low Q systems have a nice tight bass, but high Q ones have a "fluid" bass. Now in these coupled cavity systems if Q is low, the bandwidth of the bass in low and tends to the one note bass I was referring too. As you widen the bandwidth Q increases and bass quality of the bass decreases. As you increase the order of these coupled cavity systems then this problem I have outlined is increasingly exacerbated.
Why couldn't I use 2 AM16 systems on one receiver? As far as a receiver is concerned, it provides amplified signals to different channels feeding different speakers and AM15/16 systems are also speakers only they are threated as component items using circuitry in the bass module to redistribute directional highs and mids to the satellites twin cubes with omnidirectional mids and lows to the 3 internal down firing drivers.
Don't forget AM15 and 16 use 3 drivers unlike AM10 wich has only two. That's why I do like my setup. 3 drivers working independently or in unisson depending on what frequency needs to be produced. One or two at the same time for a punchy render an all three for a smooth distortion free rumble going down to unheard but felt frequencies. With the calibration I achieved, the "hole" is higher, it means that classical instrumental melodies are crisp and clear, reggae, rap or pop are played as intended but old rock sometime misses some mids wich are too low for the satellites but too high for the bass module and it tends to be annoying at times. But again, it is calibrated for movies (action and science fiction) and the Pioneer mcacc system was useless, I had to do it manually for each channel. I don't believe there are a/v systems that can play anything perfectly without minor adjustments hence the different modes used depending on what we listen to...
As far as being committed to Bose, well 15 years ago, it was a compromise between footprint and overall sound preferences. After all this time it still fits the bill but now, I tend to find those new styles musics, that my daughter likes, very soothing! (Suicide boys/Ghostemane/Pouya kind of bass beat)
I feel that the lower the bass goes, the better I feel when I'm sad so with another module/sub, I expect to get even richer sounds (if hopefully, everything goes as intended). And with 4k and Atmos or DTSX, adding speakers couldn't hurt so then again, footprint is still an issue comparing to bigger speakers. (Well AM15/16 modules are quite huge but satellites are easier to blend.)
Again, as far as Bose is concerned, it's been told they don't play well in huge rooms or with high ceilings since their "reflecting" action is less effective (and believe me, it does have a huge effect on the rendering of those tiny little twin cubes) and they need good amplifiers. I guess I was lucky the old Pioneer Vsx-1018ah was good enough to mate well with my Bose system, I can't wait to try the Onkyo to see how it will handle it/them. I would have liked a better unit like the Yamaha RX-A2080 or a Denon AVR-X3600H but they were too expensive. I had hard times trying to compare 2008 power ratings with the newer ones (2ch driven thing...) but I ended up figuring the Pioneer 390w power supply with 7x130w is no match against a 9x90w wich has a 780w power supply. I believe the Onkyo should be powerful enough to compare or surpass the unit it'll replace and hopefully sound great to my ears.
 
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D

Denx4100

Audioholic Intern
I understand what you are saying, it's just that I believe the " bass module " of the Bose system will only go down into the maybe 35hz range. The better subs can get you into the 20hz range, and lower. Under 20hz the best " true subs" can reproduce ultra low frequency that you can feel. I'm running a 5.1.4 Dolby Atmos system with front, and rear heights. I'm just not sure how you're going to make your idea work, but YMMV. My room is an unused bedroom a little more than 12x12x8, I have large bookshelves that I run as small, thereby sending the lower bass to the 2 subwoofers. Please continue to post, as I'm interested in how you make out!
 

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