Chasing ghosts

[lovinthehd]

What I was referring to with the volume was my average listening volume range. And the difference in using Bluetooth vs apple tv.
In order to get the approximate same listening loudness set at 30 while using Bluetooth, the volume control would need to be set to 40 or more on the Apple TV.
If you're asking about the massive spike in volume, that was a function of the phone that went to I believe the max of 98 instantly. The AVR volume dial will not allow that.

How do I define Dynamics? That is a really hard question to answer in my words. I guess I would say I use the term as somewhat of a catch all of the typical listening descriptions.
In terms of a simple difference, it would be like mono from a single driver vs multiple drivers in stereo. The opposite of the term flat. When closing your eyes, the separation, the staging/imaging and the very clear definition of instruments. it's a vibrance that comes at you separated but all at the same time. When you walk away from the sweet spot, a very good high end revealing system becomes just a good clear flattened system. Hopefully that makes sense. A friend once told me a very small percentage of people will understand what it is you are hearing. He was right. I would imagine at your level that percentage is much higher in your circle than mine. My immediate household thinks I'm nuts. But those handful of people that have come and listened with their eyes wide open and jaw dropped tells me I'm not alone. More I listen the more I hear. It's the difference between the sound of a good recording and a bad one.

So it's not the master volume control on the Marantz that you're using? I'd generally max out an app's volume and simply control it on the avr.

Interesting definition but not particularly how I think of it but that's why subjective terminology can be hard to understand from one person's use to another. I think more starting with dynamic range capabilities of the gear, or the recording. You've got soundstage/imaging mixed in there which I just consider as separate things (and will largely depend on your speakers/room and what's baked into the recording). Quality of a recording is another subject as well to me. Summing all that up as dynamics is sort of confusing.

Not sure what you mean about at your level and the circles thing.

 

[Focus SE]

So it's not the master volume control on the Marantz that you're using? I'd generally max out an app's volume and simply control it on the avr.

Well mainly it is the AVR remote for master control but your point is surely noted on max limits. But now I' curious. From a non-technical guy standpoint, it appears as though whatever remote I grab that becomes the "master" to the AVR. whether it's the AVR knob, AVR remote, the Apple TV remote, Marantz iphone app, or even the iPhones master volume, they all appear from a user standpoint, that the AVR has relinquished control to any input. that is shown to me in the volume display on the AVR. i.e. At no point can I add volume from any of those sources that does not directly control volume levels just like the AVR knob or remote. Am i to deduce that there are other equipment set ups where that is not the case? Say like when an external amp has a volume control, that would add separate volume input? (my amp does not).

Interesting definition but not particularly how I think of it but that's why subjective terminology can be hard to understand from one person's use to another. I think more starting with dynamic range capabilities of the gear, or the recording. You've got soundstage/imaging mixed in there which I just consider as separate things (and will largely depend on your speakers/room and what's baked into the recording). Quality of a recording is another subject as well to me. Summing all that up as dynamics is sort of confusing.

Yes, my dynamics are a total subjective description of sound heard by my ears not an electrical measurement of any kind. Human communication is probably the hardest of all sciences to truly understand.

Not sure what you mean about at your level and the circles thing.

Someone of my level of knowledge communicating with someone of your level of knowledge.
circle refers to the number of people around you with expertise. Here is a scary thought for you. with all my ignorance on display here, I know far more about Hifi than 99% of the people I know.

 

[shadyJ]

Had I known using a stereo could become this ridiculously complicated I'm not sure I would do it again.

The root of the problem here is Apple, but the hundreds of streaming services with lots of different wireless streaming protocols and encoding schemes isn't helping. It's hard to get the convenience you want without bringing in all the technologies required to make that happen. Sometimes you get lucky and things just work like they are supposed to. I try to avoid wireless when I can because when things go wrong, it can be impossible to diagnose the cause. All of my systems are largely PCs connected to either a pre-amp or AVR with HDMI or S/PDIF.

 

[Trebdp83]

Apple has its issues, but the issue here I believe is HEOS. Once a HEOS account is set up, Airplay should work. Denon/Marantz use HEOS while Yamaha uses MusicCast for network streaming services and features including Airplay. Not so difficult using Airplay with Onkyos. But, new Onkyos don’t have Chromecast built in like older models and setting them up in Google Home is a nightmare.

 

[Trebdp83]

Many have used receivers for years without network features. Many have used network connected devices for years using ethernet connections. Network features and wifi have come a very long way.

Wifi 6/AX is great. Some new devices still use Wifi 5/AC, still great. While some devices have gigabit ethernet ports, many do not have them and Wifi actually can provide more throughput. Results will vary of course.

Anybody using an older router or service provided gateway can improve their network with a new Wifi 6/AX router. It will work best when placed optimally. New routers will have Smart device apps and one can see every device on their network easily and can rename them and add custom pics of those devices.

The Apple eco system is not for everybody. Apple’s iTunes has also changed and the Apple Music service and app are great for getting a library to play, well, anywhere when synced to every device signed into a particular Apple ID. This means I can stream a ripped CD in my Mac to my iPhone anywhere I have a cell or wifi network connection. I can also download it to my iPhone.

All ripped CDs, iTunes purchased downloads and any Apple Music streaming service albums added to my library, but not actually downloaded to my devices, will all be together in my Apple Music library and available from any Apple device to which I am signed in using my Apple ID. If going over to a friend’s house with an Airplay equipped receiver, I can connect my iPhone to their network and play anything in my library there as well.

I did at one time just use my WD My Net router/storage combo to stream downloaded music anywhere to my iPhone and any network devices to which I was connected. But, WD gave up on it all and stopped supporting My Cloud on my device and got out of the router business.

 

[Focus SE]

The root of the problem here is Apple, but the hundreds of streaming services with lots of different wireless streaming protocols and encoding schemes isn't helping. It's hard to get the convenience you want without bringing in all the technologies required to make that happen. Sometimes you get lucky and things just work like they are supposed to. I try to avoid wireless when I can because when things go wrong, it can be impossible to diagnose the cause. All of my systems are largely PCs connected to either a pre-amp or AVR with HDMI or S/PDIF.

Agreed Wired is the goal and even though I fully get and understand the limitations of Apple I would have thought being hard wired would be at least equal if not better than Bluetooth. My goal is a streamer dac passing through the Marantz using its pure direct feature. But until that can happen I want to maximize the equipment at hand limited by funds. I'm ok for now with the sound and FULLY understand it can and will be better as time and money permit

 

[Focus SE]

Many have used receivers for years without network features. Many have used network connected devices for years using ethernet connections. Network features and wifi have come a very long way.

Wifi 6/AX is great. Some new devices still use Wifi 5/AC, still great. While some devices have gigabit ethernet ports, many do not have them and Wifi actually can provide more throughput. Results will vary of course.

Anybody using an older router or service provided gateway can improve their network with a new Wifi 6/AX router. It will work best when placed optimally. New routers will have Smart device apps and one can see every device on their network easily and can rename them and add custom pics of those devices.

The Apple eco system is not for everybody. Apple’s iTunes has also changed and the Apple Music service and app are great for getting a library to play, well, anywhere when synced to every device signed into a particular Apple ID. This means I can stream a ripped CD in my Mac to my iPhone anywhere I have a cell or wifi network connection. I can also download it to my iPhone.

All ripped CDs, iTunes purchased downloads and any Apple Music streaming service albums added to my library, but not actually downloaded to my devices, will all be together in my Apple Music library and available from any Apple device to which I am signed in using my Apple ID. If going over to a friend’s house with an Airplay equipped receiver, I can connect my iPhone to their network and play anything in my library there as well.

I did at one time just use my WD My Net router/storage combo to stream downloaded music anywhere to my iPhone and any network devices to which I was connected. But, WD gave up on it all and stopped supporting My Cloud on my device and got out of the router business.

So what your saying is, HIfi is the equivalent of a 20 square by 20 square Rubiks Cube? got it. yikes

 

[Trebdp83]

Agreed Wired is the goal and even though I fully get and understand the limitations of Apple I would have thought being hard wired would be at least equal if not better than Bluetooth. My goal is a streamer dac passing through the Marantz using its pure direct feature. But until that can happen I want to maximize the equipment at hand limited by funds. I'm ok for now with the sound and FULLY understand it can and will be better as time and money permit

Even when the receiver is hardwired, Bluetooth uses its own wireless connection directly to Bluetooth equipped devices. Airplay works over your wifi network and Airplay equipped devices will connect to other Airplay equipped devices on the same network using ethernet or wifi connections. So, an iPhone will connect to an ethernet connected receiver over the network. A hardwired Mac will connect to a wifi connected receiver over the network.

 

[MrBoat]

I Thank you and will revisit this in a couple of days. I have never used Airplay and somehow the AVR is asking for a password I never set up. So a factory reset is in my future. Had I known using a stereo could become this ridiculously complicated I'm not sure I would do it again.

Half the problem with "stereo" is how the internet can have instead, way too much information overload on the subject, not to mention, all the hungry hardware pushers trying to squeeze a bunch of new nickels out of old technology, that has long since, eaten itself out of house and home.

Reliance on the little idiot box known as a cell phone complicates it even further, and for no other reason than the hordes of people you see clutching the damn things, that can't bear the thought of ever letting it go. It must be included in every aspect of their lives. Want to simplify your listening experience? Start with the most basic aspects of it that still work, with so much less.

I started here on Audioholics in 2016, with an amp, my original speakers from the '80s, and my first CD player from the same era, and the most advanced thing I had was my desktop PC hooked up to it. From there, I only really wanted better speakers. The internet started to convince me I needed so much more, but when I started having to talk myself into what essentially amounted to imaginary gains, beyond the apparent difference in the speakers, I put the brakes on.

The only real upgrade I have done to my main system since, is with exploring the use of subwoofers. It's now 2024 and I have an amp (old AVR because it has bass management) 2 speakers, a turntable, a CD player and 2 subs and still with a desktop PC hooked up to it. During that time, the most complicated thing I found merit in was with learning how to manually EQ my subwoofers and not being in any hurry with that, either. I stream directly from the PC and that is about as convenient as I will allow.

IMO, music is worth setting time aside, and sitting down (or standing) for. This whole idea of ultra-convenience and having to have all the possible creature comforts with us 24/7 does nothing but water it all down into insignificance. I will come home tonight, feed/spend some time with the pets, feed myself, clean my mess, grab a pint and decide if I am into a listening session or not. As it is, I mostly listen every night and marathon on weekends. By the time I have done without for most of the day/s, I am really ready for it and having to physically do it is seemingly as convenient as it can get. Phone gets relegated to the bedroom, or even turned off completely. All I have to do is turn two switches on, and everything else gets controlled from the PC, where I spend most of my time reading anyway.

 

[TLS Guy]

The root of the problem here is Apple, but the hundreds of streaming services with lots of different wireless streaming protocols and encoding schemes isn't helping. It's hard to get the convenience you want without bringing in all the technologies required to make that happen. Sometimes you get lucky and things just work like they are supposed to. I try to avoid wireless when I can because when things go wrong, it can be impossible to diagnose the cause. All of my systems are largely PCs connected to either a pre-amp or AVR with HDMI or S/PDIF.

Shady, you are absolutely correct. Apple music is a nightmare and lousy unless you have Apple TV, and honestly who wants that. I don't for one.

I am with you about wireless connections. All our three of our systems are hard wired, and we only chromecast when a guest wants to throw something from their phone up on the screen.

Is it any wonder that vinyl is making a massive return among music lovers? The reason is simplicity and easy to understand operation.

Much as I don't like big government, there is a place for it here. Protocols should be regulated like they were for terrestrial broadcasting. In the days of disc the RIAA curve was agreed. Prior to that in the 78 era there were boatloads of curves. The RIAA curve was an outstanding success. Open reel tape was somewhat of a mess, with NAB, CCIR and DIN curves. That was a problem. When the cassette came everyone agreed on protocols.

The OP here is correct, the whole system is far too complicated for most, and they settle for a soundbar and an Alexa speaker instead of what used to be an FM radio.

This whole industry has gone way off track for the average consumer and music lover.

Combining good audio and high res TV is a wonderful advance, but precious few can really enjoy the advances made.

One thing I am certain about, is that these multi channel systems should be in the minority and reserved for the nerds like us.

There absolutely should be two channel, and three channel AV receivers and AVPs with bass management. They need agrees protocols with easy set up.

Most domestic spaces can only benefit from two, or at the most three channels. Far too many spaces have more than this and should not, from what I have seen here.

What we have created is an infrastructure where only the few can benefit and most are excluded.

The state of the art currently is a massive disgrace. I am going to have more to say about this over time.

 

[Trebdp83]

I sit down for music as well. It's how I grew up. I hate using headphones and almost never do so. For music, the iPhone is used as a controller or to add music to my library. I usually am on the couch in front of the system using the Mac, streaming devices or disc players for music playback. I'm often posting here while sitting on the couch listening to music and using the TV as a monitor. If I need to move around the house, I can send the music to a specific room or all of the rooms at once using Airplay.

Those who used Apple Music on Windows some time ago may have used it prior to Lossless support on Windows. I've used Apple Music, Amazon Music Unlimited, Qobuz and Tidal over HDMI from my Mac and also using Airplay from the Mac and also iOS devices. It all sounds good. Setting up a wifi network is easier for some than others. I did once try to hardwire everything. It just isn't necessary for me anymore. Every single device is wirelessly connected to my router. It all just works. I can even download shows from my TiVo to my Mac with surprising speed and ease. Results will vary for others of course.

I am surprised as well by the number of integrated devices that do not have bass management and the corresponding sub pre out. But, that is for another thread.

 

[davidscott]

I sit down for music as well. It's how I grew up. I hate using headphones and almost never do so. For music, the iPhone is used as a controller or to add music to my library. I usually am on the couch in front of the system using the Mac, streaming devices or disc players for music playback. I'm often posting here while sitting on the couch listening to music and using the TV as a monitor. If I need to move around the house, I can send the music to a specific room or all of the rooms at once using Airplay.

Those who used Apple Music on Windows some time ago may have used it prior to Lossless support on Windows. I've used Apple Music, Amazon Music Unlimited, Qobuz and Tidal over HDMI from my Mac and also using Airplay from the Mac and also iOS devices. It all sounds good. Setting up a wifi network is easier for some than others. I did once try to hardwire everything. It just isn't necessary for me anymore. Every single device is wirelessly connected to my router. It all just works. I can even download shows from my TiVo to my Mac with surprising speed and ease. Results will vary for others of course.

I am surprised as well by the number of integrated devices that do not have bass management and the corresponding sub pre out. But, that is for another thread.

I have been using Amazon Music Unlimited wirelessly from my Android phone to my WIIM Pro plus which is connected to my HK receiver via RCA cables. Never had a dropout or loss of signal and it sounds great. I listen to this setup more than my TT or CD player these days. And never anymore to my FM or AM tuner.

 

[Trebdp83]

I was seriously considering a WIIM before the HDMI port on my Mac mini M1 was finally let out of 24/48 jail.

 

[lovinthehd]

Well mainly it is the AVR remote for master control but your point is surely noted on max limits. But now I' curious. From a non-technical guy standpoint, it appears as though whatever remote I grab that becomes the "master" to the AVR. whether it's the AVR knob, AVR remote, the Apple TV remote, Marantz iphone app, or even the iPhones master volume, they all appear from a user standpoint, that the AVR has relinquished control to any input. that is shown to me in the volume display on the AVR. i.e. At no point can I add volume from any of those sources that does not directly control volume levels just like the AVR knob or remote. Am i to deduce that there are other equipment set ups where that is not the case? Say like when an external amp has a volume control, that would add separate volume input? (my amp does not).

Yes, my dynamics are a total subjective description of sound heard by my ears not an electrical measurement of any kind. Human communication is probably the hardest of all sciences to truly understand.

Someone of my level of knowledge communicating with someone of your level of knowledge.
circle refers to the number of people around you with expertise. Here is a scary thought for you. with all my ignorance on display here, I know far more about Hifi than 99% of the people I know.

Add comments outside of the "quoted" area, it helps in response. I copied and pasted so I could quote you.

Using a variety of remotes could cause some confusion I suppose. I prefer the one master volume control on the avr, that's why I max out the apps and leave the volume alone afterwards on the apps. I'm not sure what you mean about relinquishing control of an input, tho. Why would you add volume at the source? If you used a power amp after the avr, it may have a gain/attenuation control you need to set up initially, but you wouldn't use it on it's own afterward.

Yes, especially if it's only your definition, then it can be hard to use that for general communication....

LOL don't put me on that pedestal. I'm an enthusiast who's spent a bit of time with the stuff....

Depends on what you know about hifi....you sure it's all good info or some of the crap info that has circulated for years in the mainstream audio media?

 

[Focus SE]

I believe is HEOS. Once a HEOS account is set up, Airplay should work.

So, after one very aggravating, day I have made some progress. When I say aggravating, Heos was leading the parade. Last night and today they sucked hours of my life i will never get back. I have had an account for many months. When I was unsuccessful trying to Switch from using Bluetooth To Airplay I kept getting a request for a password. a search of the internet told me also that HEOS was the issue and does not appear to be needed but I haven't deleted the app yet. In my case it was not HEOS.

After multiple attempts on a computer and multiple attempts on my phone to try and reissue a new password I'm still locked out of the account. Good news is I am becoming more of a fan of this Marantz cinema 60. My Airplay issue was resolved by entering the very intuitive set up of the AVR. There was a section in the menus where I was able to do a factory reset on the network connections without having to to a total reset. Also, all that I did was click Reset and it did the rest. Airplay problem resolved. I have a lot of intensive listening to do. For now, the placebo of getting this up and running appears to be that it sounds as good as it has ever been. I will over the next couple of days run through my reference songs and see but first impression is good.

 

[Focus SE]

Half the problem with "stereo" is how the internet can have instead, way too much information overload on the subject, not to mention, all the hungry hardware pushers trying to squeeze a bunch of new nickels out of old technology, that has long since, eaten itself out of house and home.

PREACH!!!!!!

 

[Trebdp83]

See, easy.

 

[Focus SE]

Add comments outside of the "quoted" area, it helps in response. I copied and pasted so I could quote you.

Using a variety of remotes could cause some confusion I suppose. I prefer the one master volume control on the avr, that's why I max out the apps and leave the volume alone afterwards on the apps. I'm not sure what you mean about relinquishing control of an input, tho. Why would you add volume at the source? If you used a power amp after the avr, it may have a gain/attenuation control you need to set up initially, but you wouldn't use it on it's own afterward.

Yes, especially if it's only your definition, then it can be hard to use that for general communication....

LOL don't put me on that pedestal. I'm an enthusiast who's spent a bit of time with the stuff....

Depends on what you know about hifi....you sure it's all good info or some of the crap info that has circulated for years in the mainstream audio media?

relinquishing control/ let me say it this way, The AVR allowed all remotes to be the control of the AVR master volume. The AVR was the only point where any volume got changed.

Definitions. This industry and hobby is worse than a teenager texting. there are more acronyms. that I could remember. I need a thesaurus in the newbie section.

Sorry you and everyone else helping me here put yourselves on the pedestal. Without your help idiots like me would be lost. I honestly don't want to know what you know, however I'm finding I do need to know so thank you

 

[Focus SE]

See, easy.

I could slap you right now
If I retained all the things in this thread alone my brain would be so full I would forget to unzip before I pee!!

 

[Focus SE]

Update after changes.
First, I would like to thank all that contributed to me finding a solution. Trebdp83 your hand holding really helped me. You've taken your time to help I owe you a response letting you know the conclusion.

Recap: My issue started with static while using Bluetooth to broadcast music to my AVR from my phone.
That issue went away as soon as Apple TV 4k was installed even when using Bluetooth. I have no clue how, but it did. Due tp a lack of LAN ports I purchased and installed a Netgear switch.

Two new issues popped up. One was the dramatically reduced volume and a massive loss in sound stage dynamics when streaming through the Apple TV 4K. The second was brief interruptions of streaming. The songs would cut out for milli-seconds.

It was suggested to switch to Airplay for better results than Bluetooth. I ran into an issue with the Marantz Cinema 60 requiring a password in order to use Airplay. Marantz did think ahead in their design and allows in their set up menu to reset network settings without resetting the entire unit. I was then able to connect with Airplay. A preliminary a/b listening between Bluetooth and Airplay appeared to give Airplay an advantage. I would say there is an 80% chance that was placebo. The issue of streaming intermittently dropping out continued on both Bluetooth and Airplay. I did not take the time to determine on which connectivity is occurred more. it was frequent enough to be unacceptable on both connections.

Trebdp83 said
"Anybody using an older router or service provided gateway can improve their network with a new Wifi 6/AX router. It will work best when placed optimally. New routers will have Smart device apps and one can see every device on their network easily and can rename them and add custom pics of those devices"

At that point I did believe that the two routers in my home were the issue and at least 10 years old. So, I looked on-line and decided I knew just as little about computer networking as HIFI. Before buying I had to do some research and pick the brain of anyone but me. I figured I would try Best Buy and see what I could learn. I brought my issue to their stereo section. I was informed that they have a free consultation service to evaluate systems and make suggestions no strings attached. I figured a hard sales pitch was headed my way. That was not the case. They sent two very knowledgeable techs and I walked them through the problems until they heard them. Both instantly heard exactly what I was describing. After looking through the set up on the Marantz they only made one change and that was to the MDax speech enhancement and turned it off. No change in sound. then they went to the Apple TV and discovered at some point I must have set the Block loud sounds feature to on.
After turning that off all of the sound and sound dynamics were back and all three of us said that was it. now the remaining issue was the streaming drop outs still present.

They suggested after looking at my house and evaluating my network that the Modem/Router were very dated and if Airplay was to be utilized that should be replaced.
they recommended and I purchased an arris modem for Xfinity and an eero 6e pro router. (I guess the days of $89.00 for a good router are gone.)

This may be a "well thanks captain obvious" moment for most here but for newbies like me a big learning curve in networking. I contacted my nephew an IT guy to help me. It was a learning lesson for him as well. We disconnected the old modem/router and started the install process. There is two identical units in the Router I bought and either can be used to be primary. After adding phone apps and jerking around we finally got the first unit up and running. 5 minutes of man's victory over machine.
at minute 6 my life went south. out of now where my stereo sounded like an AM radio with a really bad signal in an electrical storm. In theory in our brains when we disconnected the Xfinity modem/router, the network was gone. So, when we set up the new network, we named it the same as the old one. While tracing our steps in modem and router set up, we went to the location of where the old second router was. When we disconnected the second router the nasty static stopped. We are assuming that both routers were fighting for the same network name. This also caused a problem with the second new eero router. it somehow attached itself to the old network. Well after a complete restart and deletion of the old network both of the routers are operating as advertised.

After all of that, is the router now better for streaming? Yes, BUT. I do still have a minor issue with drop out of signal on Bluetooth and Airplay. However, it is GREATLY reduced. Where before I would get at least one audible glitch per song sometimes 5 or more, Now I am surprised to hear one once every 5 to 10 songs. I did notice that now when I input to my AVR, it can happen. By input I mean change volume, change songs, or back out of menus using the remotes. But only on Bluetooth and
Airplay. I have had the Apple TV on all day and no streaming issues at all that I've heard. And that leads me to the last question. My original goal in all of this and that was to hard wire my streaming to make it better. Well, is it? I don't know. my wallet says it has to be, but my ears are not convinced. It appears to be less bright streaming through the Apple TV, but I really need a quiet environment to play some reference songs I know and a/b it. All in all, I now have a truly enjoyable system.

Again, I would like to say thanks to all for helping. Barring any issues Its staying just like this as long as I can. If I can decern an appreciable difference between Apple TV and Airplay I will let you know. Until then I'm going to enjoy the music!!!!!!!
*All of my thoughts were clear in my head as I typed so hopefully, they made sense in print.