Chasing ghosts

[Focus SE]

It may be helpful to look at my Timeline at the bottom and see what I am after then if your so inclined, read my post. thanks!

I have spent the better part of the last year trying to learn my equipment in this hobby. I don't even know where to start, because I have no idea what topic this falls under.
the issue at hand is, Bluetooth vs. hard wired Ethernet in/HDMI out apple tv.
Background: 99% usage is two channel music listening and really my only concern here. As with all things money is a factor in rapid changes in equipment/services. For now, and the foreseeable future, the streaming service of choice is Apple music. After the AVR (primarily a processor), amp and speakers were acquired equipment purchases stopped. All was good with the world. for the time being I was streaming apple music via Bluetooth to the AVR. Not ideal, I get it.

After spending large amounts of time tweaking the system it was more than I ever expected. My biggest discovery was that Apple's Lossless is not an automatic setting and needs to be turned on. That was another positive leap forward in Dynamics. (side note: In my car there is zero audible difference to me.) For the months that followed, that set up worked great.
After countless hours of really enjoyable listening, I developed a clicking noise while listening. I would describe it as being very similar to a scratch on an album but at varying time differentials. It would come and go between listening sessions. I did some very crude internet search for solutions and the only thing I could find was that was a possible cause was the volume of music I downloaded to my iPhone was causing some sort of lag and therefore causing the static. So I tried rebooting my phone and that Seemed to work for a short time. When it returned, I tried my wife's brand-new phone with the same issue occurring.

One day when getting very annoyed at this noise I discovered a neat feature in my apple phone. I attempted to turn up the volume a little to try and more define the noise. In doing so I learned that if you double tap the volume up button is goes to full volume. Turns out, that's great when on the speaker phone, just not so good while Bluetoothing to a Marantz Cinema 60. My new fear in life became that I just blew out my speakers, amp, and or the AVR. After my heart started again, I checked, and all systems appeared to be in good working order. It was at that moment my bluetooth days were numbered. Cost wise for me the best temporary solution was to go with an Apple TV device. Of course, this put me over the limit of Lan connections on my router, so I had to acquire a Netgear switch. In an abundance of caution, I replaced and upgraded all of my old HDMI and cat cables. After installing my Apple TV all seemed ok except for the line level volume seemed low. Previous normal listening levels would be about the 30 numeric mark on the dial. Now it had to be at about 40+ mark. I also discovered that most dynamics were gone. Everything I have read and understood, told me I had to be wrong, and a direct connection would absolutely be better. I resorted back to the Bluetooth connection, and it was in fact a much better sound. And go figure, my original issue of static/clicking noise was gone and has not reappeared. Welcome to my life and the world of electronics. What did happen one day while listening, was the dynamics became so awful I thought my original fear of blowing something in the speaker had actually finally given out after my power dump. Upon listening inspection, I could not hear anything coming from one of the tweeters in both channels.

In an attempt to start the painful process of elimination here is what I have attempted with zero success in making the apple tv sound as least as good as Bluetooth.
The first thing I did was pull the tweeters at issue and fed a signal from another stereo to them. they both produced clean sound.
My next step was to inspect the speaker crossover. None of the caps appeared to be bulging. (my multimeter is fine for housing electrical but won't read down to resisters and caps)
After reassembling the one speaker, a good portion of the dynamics in both channels returned. Because I only touched one speaker, this told me that I had an intermittent problem and it wasn't in the speaker because I only touched one and they both regained some dynamics with the apple tv and all dynamics with Bluetooth.
One by one into my Marantz Cinema 60 I have swapped out the actual HDMI cables and put it into multiple different slots.
I swapped out all the cat cables and used different router and switch slots. No success!

Timeline recap:
1) Streaming Apple music Bluetooth to Marantz Cinema 60 AVR as good as anyone could expect. almost 72 hours of listening according to apple music, with no issues.
2) Developed an intermittent static noise/clicking while Bluetooth Streaming. Rebooted and tried different iPhones. iPhone 14+ no resolution. Problem returned.
3) Had accidental power/volume dump, equipment appeared ok and sound was the same on Bluetooth with static continuing intermittently. No change/ no resolution.
4) Added Apple TV and Netgear switch this appears to have gotten rid of the static issue on Bluetooth but Apple tv has a muffled sound and bad dynamics. This is not logical in my mind.
5) One day when listening all dynamics on apple tv and Bluetooth were gone. left with total flat mono sound. one tweeter of two, on each channel no sound. I tested the tweeter on one speaker with other source and it worked as it should. I examined speaker crossover with no visible cap issues. after reassembling the speaker dynamics returned in both speakers while Bluetooth remained more dynamic than Apple TV. I am assuming this improvement is coincidence and part if an intermittent problem.
6) Removed, replaced and swapped all HDMI and ethernet cables. changed the location port of all wires.
7) re checked and reset most of the EQ options on the Cinama 60
8) Current status: Bluetooth Apple music as good sounding as expected with no static. Apple TV is much less dynamic and flat sounding.
My brain is telling me this issue is either in the Cinema 60 or the Apple TV device.
I don't own or have the ability to use the required electronics to diagnose this.
For now, we can forget the non-existing intermittent issues, but I am open to any and all suggestions on what the next step would be to find out how a wired connection could sound so much worse than Bluetooth?
Thanks, and now you know a little about what it's like to be me.

 

[TLS Guy]

It may be helpful to look at my Timeline at the bottom and see what I am after then if your so inclined, read my post. thanks!

I have spent the better part of the last year trying to learn my equipment in this hobby. I don't even know where to start, because I have no idea what topic this falls under.
the issue at hand is, Bluetooth vs. hard wired Ethernet in/HDMI out apple tv.
Background: 99% usage is two channel music listening and really my only concern here. As with all things money is a factor in rapid changes in equipment/services. For now, and the foreseeable future, the streaming service of choice is Apple music. After the AVR (primarily a processor), amp and speakers were acquired equipment purchases stopped. All was good with the world. for the time being I was streaming apple music via Bluetooth to the AVR. Not ideal, I get it.

After spending large amounts of time tweaking the system it was more than I ever expected. My biggest discovery was that Apple's Lossless is not an automatic setting and needs to be turned on. That was another positive leap forward in Dynamics. (side note: In my car there is zero audible difference to me.) For the months that followed, that set up worked great.
After countless hours of really enjoyable listening, I developed a clicking noise while listening. I would describe it as being very similar to a scratch on an album but at varying time differentials. It would come and go between listening sessions. I did some very crude internet search for solutions and the only thing I could find was that was a possible cause was the volume of music I downloaded to my iPhone was causing some sort of lag and therefore causing the static. So I tried rebooting my phone and that Seemed to work for a short time. When it returned, I tried my wife's brand-new phone with the same issue occurring.

One day when getting very annoyed at this noise I discovered a neat feature in my apple phone. I attempted to turn up the volume a little to try and more define the noise. In doing so I learned that if you double tap the volume up button is goes to full volume. Turns out, that's great when on the speaker phone, just not so good while Bluetoothing to a Marantz Cinema 60. My new fear in life became that I just blew out my speakers, amp, and or the AVR. After my heart started again, I checked, and all systems appeared to be in good working order. It was at that moment my bluetooth days were numbered. Cost wise for me the best temporary solution was to go with an Apple TV device. Of course, this put me over the limit of Lan connections on my router, so I had to acquire a Netgear switch. In an abundance of caution, I replaced and upgraded all of my old HDMI and cat cables. After installing my Apple TV all seemed ok except for the line level volume seemed low. Previous normal listening levels would be about the 30 numeric mark on the dial. Now it had to be at about 40+ mark. I also discovered that most dynamics were gone. Everything I have read and understood, told me I had to be wrong, and a direct connection would absolutely be better. I resorted back to the Bluetooth connection, and it was in fact a much better sound. And go figure, my original issue of static/clicking noise was gone and has not reappeared. Welcome to my life and the world of electronics. What did happen one day while listening, was the dynamics became so awful I thought my original fear of blowing something in the speaker had actually finally given out after my power dump. Upon listening inspection, I could not hear anything coming from one of the tweeters in both channels.

In an attempt to start the painful process of elimination here is what I have attempted with zero success in making the apple tv sound as least as good as Bluetooth.
The first thing I did was pull the tweeters at issue and fed a signal from another stereo to them. they both produced clean sound.
My next step was to inspect the speaker crossover. None of the caps appeared to be bulging. (my multimeter is fine for housing electrical but won't read down to resisters and caps)
After reassembling the one speaker, a good portion of the dynamics in both channels returned. Because I only touched one speaker, this told me that I had an intermittent problem and it wasn't in the speaker because I only touched one and they both regained some dynamics with the apple tv and all dynamics with Bluetooth.
One by one into my Marantz Cinema 60 I have swapped out the actual HDMI cables and put it into multiple different slots.
I swapped out all the cat cables and used different router and switch slots. No success!

Timeline recap:
1) Streaming Apple music Bluetooth to Marantz Cinema 60 AVR as good as anyone could expect. almost 72 hours of listening according to apple music, with no issues.
2) Developed an intermittent static noise/clicking while Bluetooth Streaming. Rebooted and tried different iPhones. iPhone 14+ no resolution. Problem returned.
3) Had accidental power/volume dump, equipment appeared ok and sound was the same on Bluetooth with static continuing intermittently. No change/ no resolution.
4) Added Apple TV and Netgear switch this appears to have gotten rid of the static issue on Bluetooth but Apple tv has a muffled sound and bad dynamics. This is not logical in my mind.
5) One day when listening all dynamics on apple tv and Bluetooth were gone. left with total flat mono sound. one tweeter of two, on each channel no sound. I tested the tweeter on one speaker with other source and it worked as it should. I examined speaker crossover with no visible cap issues. after reassembling the speaker dynamics returned in both speakers while Bluetooth remained more dynamic than Apple TV. I am assuming this improvement is coincidence and part if an intermittent problem.
6) Removed, replaced and swapped all HDMI and ethernet cables. changed the location port of all wires.
7) re checked and reset most of the EQ options on the Cinama 60
8) Current status: Bluetooth Apple music as good sounding as expected with no static. Apple TV is much less dynamic and flat sounding.
My brain is telling me this issue is either in the Cinema 60 or the Apple TV device.
I don't own or have the ability to use the required electronics to diagnose this.
For now, we can forget the non-existing intermittent issues, but I am open to any and all suggestions on what the next step would be to find out how a wired connection could sound so much worse than Bluetooth?
Thanks, and now you know a little about what it's like to be me.

I did a brief trial of Apple Music, and thought it was just awful. It sounded like you describe. Getting disentangled from Apple was a huge challenge. Those people are evil. So, my streamers are my HTPC and DAW, and a couple of Apps on my smart TV. All of those give excellent quality.

High Res streams are BS. Best quality are Flac or AFLAC lossless streams and they don't need to be higher than CD resolution 44.1 16 bit.

 

[Focus SE]

Now that you mention it, I did try an old Mac Mini before I got the Apple TV streamer. It ended up sounding equally as bad as the Apple TV. Again, I did some crude research, and the consensus was that the DAC in it was too old to process properly. So, before I plunked down big money on another Mac Mini I wanted to try the cheapest route. I researched the Bluesound Node and it appears it will not play the "lossless" files. The only streamer that I have found that is "Apple ready" is the HiFirose RS250 at $2700. I haven't even determined with certainty it properly opens a "lossless" file. Thats why I settled temporarily on the Apple TV. Before I spend any more money, I need to get to the bottom of why Bluetooth streaming is better than any other source in my system.

 

[GuyInLA]

I never BT anything from my iphone to my AVR while at home. I do everything over Airplay. Maybe I missed in in your post, but I am wondering if your connection between phone and ATV is AIRPLAY vs BTto the AVR.

Note: I also use AIRPLAY from my phone to AVR instead of bluetooth.
I had long ago noticed imitations that came overtime with Airplay (over a long period of time years ago). This included volume limits when setting the volume using the phone controls. In order to get above that, i had to manually increase volume on the target (AVR and also additional AIRPLAY TARGETS like AIRFOIL). If I got the volume where I wanted it (or it wasn't normalized between songs) I may have to turn it down barely with the phone, but then use the other device to once again increase volume above that AIRPLAY-enforced max level.

Interesting note: When I started looking into it long ago, it was suggested that many people had complained that the volume signal from the phone would exceed safe listening limits (and potentially damage listening equipment) - kind of like you also mentioned above.

So, though I may have missed it in your post, I think a good point to start your analysis is making sure we are talking about a mixture of bluetooth and airplay vs just bluetooth, or even solely airplay.

 

[dolynick]

Now that you mention it, I did try an old Mac Mini before I got the Apple TV streamer. It ended up sounding equally as bad as the Apple TV. Again, I did some crude research, and the consensus was that the DAC in it was too old to process properly. So, before I plunked down big money on another Mac Mini I wanted to try the cheapest route. I researched the Bluesound Node and it appears it will not play the "lossless" files. The only streamer that I have found that is "Apple ready" is the HiFirose RS250 at $2700. I haven't even determined with certainty it properly opens a "lossless" file. Thats why I settled temporarily on the Apple TV. Before I spend any more money, I need to get to the bottom of why Bluetooth streaming is better than any other source in my system.

The Eversolo A6 looks like it supports the Apple Music app (android) and are considerably cheaper. They've also gotten generally positive to glowing reviews. It is also capable of accessing files from network/NAS and supports a built in NVME drive for local storage (I'm assuming your "lossless files" are flac). Might be worth looking at.

 

[Focus SE]

I never BT anything from my iphone to my AVR while at home. I do everything over Airplay. Maybe I missed in in your post, but I am wondering if your connection between phone and ATV is AIRPLAY vs BTto the AVR.

Note: I also use AIRPLAY from my phone to AVR instead of bluetooth.
I had long ago noticed imitations that came overtime with Airplay (over a long period of time years ago). This included volume limits when setting the volume using the phone controls. In order to get above that, i had to manually increase volume on the target (AVR and also additional AIRPLAY TARGETS like AIRFOIL). If I got the volume where I wanted it (or it wasn't normalized between songs) I may have to turn it down barely with the phone, but then use the other device to once again increase volume above that AIRPLAY-enforced max level.

Interesting note: When I started looking into it long ago, it was suggested that many people had complained that the volume signal from the phone would exceed safe listening limits (and potentially damage listening equipment) - kind of like you also mentioned above.

So, though I may have missed it in your post, I think a good point to start your analysis is making sure we are talking about a mixture of Bluetooth and airplay vs just bluetooth, or even solely airplay.

Thank you but let me start by saying I have never been more frustrated with technology. I recently retired from a career with ZERO technology involved. I immediately discovered my lack in understanding of electrical components would hinder my ability to turn on the power, hit play and enjoy listening to quality components almost to a point where it's not worth it.
I cannot express my real appreciation for you or anyone responding to my request and there were some points I will need to look into. Mainly your comments about volume control resonated with me. So, I just checked and looked into the Apple TV and no volume limiter is present that I can see that would make the line level input that much lower. The Airplay feature definitely appears to have merit to look into however my point in this was to go to a hard connection to avoid all short comings in the signal to the speaker.

If I have to learn one more acronym that I'm going to forget once this is working, I'm going to scream and that doesn't include all the proprietary vernacular. I am not a fan or detractor of Apple products. It was picked because that is what my family had decided I should pay for, for them before I had any vested interest.

Until I figure this out, I can't have another subscription service on top of all the other monthly plans I'm paying for. What I do know is the best sound I have achieved is from Apple lossless via Bluetooth. The entire world has indicated to me otherwise. It makes perfect sense right up the part where a hard connection sounds dramatically worse. and that is agreed upon by the last 10+ people I have forced to listen just to prove I shouldn't be locked up for having lost my marbles.

To your point about Bluetooth vs Bluetooth and Airplay. while this may have total merit my goal is to make a permanent connection, but my problem so far is that this has produced a worse sound, not even equal. In the current Bluetooth setting I have it all. Staging, separation, dynamics definition in ways i have never heard. if its possible to make it sound better I would cry every time I listened. Its that good. I'm seeking consistency and no glitches.
Thanks

 

[Focus SE]

The Eversolo A6 looks like it supports the Apple Music app (android) and are considerably cheaper. They've also gotten generally positive to glowing reviews. It is also capable of accessing files from network/NAS and supports a built in NVME drive for local storage (I'm assuming your "lossless files" are flac). Might be worth looking at.

Sarcasm button on: Thanks now I have more acronyms to learn!!!! Sarcasm button off: haha
Thank you

My hillbilly research on many streamers says that most will play Apple Music. But in all of that not one person could tell me it would in fact play the "lossless" file. Go figure, I was assuming that an Apple product would at least match an Apple product. I just don't have the technical expertise to read a product spec sheet and know it what I am buying will do what I want it too.

The guy that discussed the Bluesound Node told me it absolutely would not play lossless. I can't prove him right or wrong.

thanks for the suggestion on Eversolo I will look into it.

 

[GuyInLA]

Thank you but let me start by saying I have never been more frustrated with technology. I recently retired from a career with ZERO technology involved. I immediately discovered my lack in understanding of electrical components would hinder my ability to turn on the power, hit play and enjoy listening to quality components almost to a point where it's not worth it.
I cannot express my real appreciation for you or anyone responding to my request and there were some points I will need to look into. Mainly your comments about volume control resonated with me. So, I just checked and looked into the Apple TV and no volume limiter is present that I can see that would make the line level input that much lower. The Airplay feature definitely appears to have merit to look into however my point in this was to go to a hard connection to avoid all short comings in the signal to the speaker.

If I have to learn one more acronym that I'm going to forget once this is working, I'm going to scream and that doesn't include all the proprietary vernacular. I am not a fan or detractor of Apple products. It was picked because that is what my family had decided I should pay for, for them before I had any vested interest.

Until I figure this out, I can't have another subscription service on top of all the other monthly plans I'm paying for. What I do know is the best sound I have achieved is from Apple lossless via Bluetooth. The entire world has indicated to me otherwise. It makes perfect sense right up the part where a hard connection sounds dramatically worse. and that is agreed upon by the last 10+ people I have forced to listen just to prove I shouldn't be locked up for having lost my marbles.

To your point about Bluetooth vs Bluetooth and Airplay. while this may have total merit my goal is to make a permanent connection, but my problem so far is that this has produced a worse sound, not even equal. In the current Bluetooth setting I have it all. Staging, separation, dynamics definition in ways i have never heard. if its possible to make it sound better I would cry every time I listened. Its that good. I'm seeking consistency and no glitches.
Thanks

Sure. But (please correct me if I misunderstand) but you are playing from your phone. Your phone is connecting wirelessly (hence the Bluetooth part). When you incorporated the Apple TV, are you still plying from the music app on your phone? I think this is limitation.

I dont use an Apple TV (so I can not walk you through the details of using it) but using an app EMBEDDED on the APPLE TV device could (and I would think SHOULD) be able to deliver something better to your Marantz/Speakers through a wired connection. Otherwise, I believe you will still have to live within the reality of AIRPLAY and WIRELESS, (and at that point you could bypass the AppleTV and as long as your Marantz is connected to the same wireless network as your phone, you could simply AIRPLAY to your Marantz.

I understand how daunting all of the techy speak and acronyms can be annoying while looking for a simple solution, but I think once you have it nailed down, it will be easier for you.
As I mention above, your Marantz would have to be connected to your network (via wireless or wire) for AIRPLAY to connect wireless to it. If your AVR is NOT CONNECTED via either, it would rule out AIRPLAY. Additionally., on your IPHONE, you can independently turn off BLUETOOTH AND AIRPLAY ability. You simply turn off bluetooth radio for the bluetooth part, and turn off wireless on your phone, which disables AIRPLAY to your MARANTZ. This would help you determine which method you are using.

Final notes:
I am sure members on this group will be patient helping to get it sorted, so let's keep going.

I am pretty sure there is no "limiter" setting for AIRPLAY that would be accessible. It's just baked into AIRPLAY that way.

Regarding an app that is resident on the APPLE TV, I apologize again because I don't use one enough to be familiar with it. Many others on this forum would have such knowledge. It seems it might be possible for a music app to exist on the device and be controlled by the phone. Apple used to do this by turning the phone into what they called a "REMOTE" but the music source was still off-phone. This is the only way I could think a system could be run without exhibiting any limitation of AIRPLAY or BLUETOOTH, but my gut says that isn't how you are running it. If we can narrow down whether you are running BLUETOOTH or AIRPLAY specifically, maybe we can get you where you are looking to be.

 

[dolynick]

The guy that discussed the Bluesound Node told me it absolutely would not play lossless. I can't prove him right or wrong.

Doing a quick search, Bluesound Nodes do support SMB (network) shares. They can also play back a flac file. Unless your lossless files are in some less ubiquitous format, the Node is technically capable of it. It doesn't have internal storage though and I can't comment on how the UI for playing files from shares is vs other devices.

I should note though that playing a lossless file from an internal drive or via a network share is not the same as sending it via bluetooth or airplay. The former is going to be bit-perfect to the file. The latter can involve format shifting and compression, depending on the protocol and circumstances of the connection. Both can be done over wireless networking so that might be a source of confusion, which is why I mention it.

 

[Focus SE]

Sure. But (please correct me if I misunderstand) but you are playing from your phone. Your phone is connecting wirelessly (hence the Bluetooth part). When you incorporated the Apple TV, are you still plying from the music app on your phone? I think this is limitation.

Yes My phone was Bluetooth paired to the AVR and that is how I originally played music with no issues. I can switch back and forth between the Apple TV and my iPhone and there is a noticable difference.

I dont use an Apple TV (so I can not walk you through the details of using it) but using an app EMBEDDED on the APPLE TV device could (and I would think SHOULD) be able to deliver something better to your Marantz/Speakers through a wired connection. Otherwise, I believe you will still have to live within the reality of AIRPLAY and WIRELESS, (and at that point you could bypass the AppleTV and as long as your Marantz is connected to the same wireless network as your phone, you could simply AIRPLAY to your Marantz.

I agreed a wired connection would be better and that is why I bought the Apple TV. As far as Airplay, I have never used that feature and not even sure how to. i will look into it. I will note that the Marantz has a feature they call "pure direct" essentially that takes an input source and bypasses any internal processing in the AVR and sends that directly to the external amp and then the speakers. Using that feature made no Improvement in the Apple TV.

I understand how daunting all of the techy speak and acronyms can be annoying while looking for a simple solution, but I think once you have it nailed down, it will be easier for you.
As I mention above, your Marantz would have to be connected to your network (via wireless or wire) for AIRPLAY to connect wireless to it. If your AVR is NOT CONNECTED via either, it would rule out AIRPLAY. Additionally., on your IPHONE, you can independently turn off BLUETOOTH AND AIRPLAY ability. You simply turn off bluetooth radio for the bluetooth part, and turn off wireless on your phone, which disables AIRPLAY to your MARANTZ. This would help you determine which method you are using.

The AVR is connected directly via ethernet. Additionally, I have moved that connection back and forth between the router directly and the netgear Switch in different ports using different wires with zero improvement.

Final notes:
I am sure members on this group will be patient helping to get it sorted, so let's keep going.

I am pretty sure there is no "limiter" setting for AIRPLAY that would be accessible. It's just baked into AIRPLAY that way.

Again I'm not sure about airplay, but when connected via pairing Bluetooth The volume control on the AVR or the iPhone become the master volume control depending on which device you touch. An adjustment on one is indicated on the display of the other.

Regarding an app that is resident on the APPLE TV, I apologize again because I don't use one enough to be familiar with it. Many others on this forum would have such knowledge. It seems it might be possible for a music app to exist on the device and be controlled by the phone. Apple used to do this by turning the phone into what they called a "REMOTE" but the music source was still off-phone. This is the only way I could think a system could be run without exhibiting any limitation of AIRPLAY or BLUETOOTH, but my gut says that isn't how you are running it. If we can narrow down whether you are running BLUETOOTH or AIRPLAY specifically, maybe we can get you where you are looking to be.

You made me think of something else. Under recommendation of a guy at a true HIFI store, I tried the Heos app Marantz pre-loaded. the sound out of that was a lifeless as the apple tv. and it was also being Bluetoothed. Additionally I have the Marantz remote control app that will run all functions of the remote from my phone including master volume. So in my conclusion, there is for sure something with Apples "lossless" producing a sound that is not just my own imagination but that of the people I have asked to listen.

hopefully I am speaking clearly and Thank you very much

 

[Focus SE]

Doing a quick search, Bluesound Nodes do support SMB (network) shares. They can also play back a flac file. Unless your lossless files are in some less ubiquitous format, the Node is technically capable of it. It doesn't have internal storage though and I can't comment on how the UI for playing files from shares is vs other devices.

I should note though that playing a lossless file from an internal drive or via a network share is not the same as sending it via bluetooth or airplay. The former is going to be bit-perfect to the file. The latter can involve format shifting and compression, depending on the protocol and circumstances of the connection. Both can be done over wireless networking so that might be a source of confusion, which is why I mention it.

I am going to have to research types of files and how they are compressed transferred and opened. I don't even know what the flac a flac is!!!!!!! Please I do not want to waste your time explaining it to me. Everyone is so gracious with knowledge I don't want to have to know. From an ignorant point of view I would think Apple and Marantz should have sat down before they took my money.

you noted playing a lossless from a hard connection should be better, how I got here, was because of my agreement in that belief.
Thanks!!!

 

[GuyInLA]

You made me think of something else. Under recommendation of a guy at a true HIFI store, I tried the Heos app Marantz pre-loaded. the sound out of that was a lifeless as the apple tv. and it was also being Bluetoothed. Additionally I have the Marantz remote control app that will run all functions of the remote from my phone including master volume. So in my conclusion, there is for sure something with Apples "lossless" producing a sound that is not just my own imagination but that of the people I have asked to listen.

hopefully I am speaking clearly and Thank you very much

The HEOS app can be used with both AIRPLAY and BLUETOOTH, just like the regular music app, so determining which is may still be critical to guide you.

 

[Trebdp83]

Apple Music is a mess. I use it, but it isn't fun to set up. I DO NOT use my Apple TV 4K for music except when wanting to hear Dolby Atmos tracks from Apple Music, BPO or Tidal. The Apple TV 4K will output everything at 24/48 by default. So the lossless 16/44.1 tracks get output at 24/48 over HDMI. It does not support the hi-res tracks. No, I'm not promoting hi-res as much as bit for bit output. Conversions for output shouldn't do so but can result in audio output issues.

I was also wondering if Bluetooth was being mistaken for Airplay 2. Airplay 2 does support lossless audio but there are kinks. If Dolby Atmos is ON for Apple Music, it will not work over Airplay 2 and a lossy AAC signal will be sent instead of the lossless ALAC signal when Dolby Atmos is turned OFF. It doesn't help matters that Apple Music is not accessible using HEOS, MusicCast or Play-Fi when using any of those apps on different AVRs. Apple Music will send lossless 16/44.1 over Airplay 2 while Amazon Music will actually do it up to 24/48, the limit of Airplay 2.

Apple finally unlocked the HDMI port on my Mac mini M1 so that 24/48 is not the only bit/rate combo available for output. I've used Amazon Music Unlimited, Apple Music, Qobuz and Tidal apps in my Mac and all can output 16/44.1 - 24/192. I can't honestly tell you if one sounds better than another as they all sound great. Apple Music does not support Exclusive mode and actually killed it for Amazon Music in MacOS Ventura. Tidal Exclusive mode still works and bit/rate will change for lossless to hi-res tracks and even silly MQA unfold works using Mac. There is a third party app for Apple Music lossless switching. Using Airplay from my iOS devices and my Mac to my receivers using any of those services also sounds great.

With your iPhone and Marantz on the same network, you will do fine to use Airplay 2. You should make sure of a few settings in your iPhone for Apple Music. First, go to Settings and scroll down to Apple Music:

Then, Tap Music for its settings:

Notice Dolby Atmos is OFF here. It doesn’t work over Airplay 2 so just turn it OFF or any Dolby Atmos track will be sent out in AAC and the Lossless indicator will not be present. Then, go to Audio Quality and turn Lossless Audio ON:

I just leave Hi-Res Lossless ON for everything but Lossless up to 24/48 can also be selected.
Now, when streaming from the iPhone using Airplay 2, lossless audio will be sent.

Here is a pic of a track that supports Dolby Atmos with Dolby Atmos ON. It is not lossless and will not go over in Dolby Atmos using Airplay 2

After turning Dolby Atmos OFF, the Lossless version is available and sent over Airplay 2:

You can turn Airplay 2 ON from the Control Center or from within the Apple Music app track. The Airplay icon is at the bottom of the screen when playing a selected track:

Tapping the Airplay icon will show the iPhone as the current output device and also show any Airplay supporting devices on the network to which the music can be sent. Your network would show at least your Apple TV 4K. When sending the music to a receiver on your network via Airplay 2, the volume buttons on the iPhone will control the volume level of the receiver:

The Apple TV 4K has similar settings for Apple Music, though, it does not support Hi-res and so Lossless up to 24/48 is selectable and Hi-res 24/192 is not an option at all. Dolby Atmos can be turned OFF as well in the Apple TV 4K Apple Music app so that only Lossless two channel versions of tracks are played when Lossless is ON.

If just using Apple Music from iPhone, set streaming and downloads to Lossless. They will both be ALAC(Apple Lossless Codec.)

Interestingly, some Dolby tracks in Apple Music are 5.1 and labeled Dolby Audio while some are actually Dolby Atmos. Turning Dolby Atmos OFF means Dolby Audio tracks are also played back in lossless two channel versions when Lossless is ON and Dolby Atmos is OFF.

The Dolby label will be present when using iPhone speakers with Dolby Atmos ON but will not be present when using Airplay if Dolby Atmos is ON.

 

[GuyInLA]

Apple Music is a mess. I use it, but it isn't fun to set up. I DO NOT use my Apple TV 4K for music except when wanting to hear Dolby Atmos tracks from Apple Music, BPO or Tidal. The Apple TV 4K will output everything at 24/48 by default. So the lossless 16/44.1 tracks get output at 24/48 over HDMI. It does not support the hi-res tracks. No, I'm not promoting hi-res as much as bit for bit output. Conversions for output shouldn't do so but can result in audio output issues.

I was also wondering if Bluetooth was being mistaken for Airplay 2. Airplay 2 does support lossless audio but there are kinks. If Dolby Atmos is ON for Apple Music, it will not work over Airplay 2 and a lossy AAC signal will be sent instead of the lossless ALAC signal when Dolby Atmos is turned OFF. It doesn't help matters that Apple Music is not accessible using HEOS, MusicCast or Play-Fi when using any of those apps on different AVRs. Apple Music will send lossless 16/44.1 over Airplay 2 while Amazon Music will actually do it up to 24/48, the limit of Airplay 2.

Apple finally unlocked the HDMI port on my Mac mini M1 so that 24/48 is not the only bit/rate combo available for output. I've used Amazon Music Unlimited, Apple Music, Qobuz and Tidal apps in my Mac and all can output 16/44.1 - 24/192. I can't honestly tell you if one sounds better than another as they all sound great. Apple Music does not support Exclusive mode and actually killed it for Amazon Music in MacOS Ventura. Tidal Exclusive mode still works and bit/rate will change for lossless to hi-res tracks and even silly MQA unfold works using Mac. There is a third party app for Apple Music lossless switching. Using Airplay from my iOS devices and my Mac to my receivers using any of those services also sounds great.

With your iPhone and Marantz on the same network, you will do fine to use Airplay 2. You should make sure of a few settings in your iPhone for Apple Music. First, go to Settings and scroll down to Apple Music:
View attachment 65145
Then, Tap Music for its settings:
View attachment 65146
Notice Dolby Atmos is OFF here. It doesn’t work over Airplay 2 so just turn it OFF or any Dolby Atmos track will be sent out in AAC and the Lossless indicator will not be present. Then, go to Audio Quality and turn Lossless Audio ON:
View attachment 65147
I just leave Hi-Res Lossless ON for everything but Lossless up to 24/48 can also be selected.
Now, when streaming from the iPhone using Airplay 2, lossless audio will be sent.

Here is a pic of a track that supports Dolby Atmos with Dolby Atmos ON. It is not lossless and will not go over in Dolby Atmos using Airplay 2
View attachment 65148

After turning Dolby Atmos OFF, the Lossless version is available and sent over Airplay 2:

View attachment 65149

You can turn Airplay 2 ON from the Control Center or from within the Apple Music app track. The Airplay icon is at the bottom of the screen when playing a selected track:
View attachment 65150

Tapping the Airplay icon will show the iPhone as the current output device and also show any Airplay supporting devices on the network to which the music can be sent. Your network would show at least your Apple TV 4K. When sending the music to a receiver on your network via Airplay 2, the volume buttons on the iPhone will control the volume level of the receiver:
View attachment 65152

The Apple TV 4K has similar settings for Apple Music, though, it does not support Hi-res and so Lossless up to 24/48 is selectable and Hi-res 24/192 is not an option at all. Dolby Atmos can be turned OFF as well in the Apple TV 4K Apple Music app so that only Lossless two channel versions of tracks are played when Lossless is ON.

If just using Apple Music from iPhone, set streaming and downloads to Lossless. They will both be ALAC(Apple Lossless Codec.)

Interestingly, some Dolby tracks in Apple Music are 5.1 and labeled Dolby Audio while some are actually Dolby Atmos. Turning Dolby Atmos OFF means Dolby Audio tracks are also played back in lossless two channel versions when Lossless is ON and Dolby Atmos is OFF.

View attachment 65154
View attachment 65155

The Dolby label will be present when using iPhone speakers with Dolby Atmos ON but will not be present when using Airplay if Dolby Atmos is ON.

Thats a great update with very helpful screenshots. I will be interested to hear whether the OP is using Airplay or Bluetooth.

 

[Trebdp83]

Apple could not have made it all more confusing for folks. As for enjoying Dolby Atmos tracks from Apple Music on a Dolby Atmos configured sound system, the Apple TV 4K is currently the ONLY device that will do it over HDMI. Macs do not support Dolby Atmos over HDMI. Even when using the Audio MIDI Setup to configure the Mac for Atmos, the Mac's Apple Music Dolby Atmos signal is actually just Dolby 5.1 and is converted to LPCM for output over HDMI. It cannot be bitstreamed in Dolby Digital 5.1 like the Mac's Apple TV app. I've ranted about it to Apple many times. They say they are "aware" that many want Dolby Atmos available over HDMI on their Macs but have yet to do anything about it. Hi-res over HDMI was at least a step in the right direction concerning the Mac's HDMI port.

As for Airplay 2 for lossless, some say it's actually AAC. But, my equipment reports otherwise when using it. I do like that selecting any of my receivers for Airplay 2 output will power them ON as well as control their volume from my iOS or MacOS devices. Airplay 2 also does not have a Zone 2 restriction like other protocols and those wanting to Airplay to their Main Zone and Zone 2 can do so.

 

[Focus SE]

I am very appreciative and will for sure get back to you on this. a lot of digestion needs to happen so let me play around tonight and see where we end.!!!!
for me Atmos is not a thing I'm chasing but this is a wealth of information for many!!!!!!!
Up until this point its Bluetooth.

 

[Trebdp83]

Give Airplay 2 a try. If the Marantz is on your network, your Apple devices should see it.

Many don't like using their iOS devices for streaming from services or downloading music. They use their Macs for such things.

For those with music downloaded from Apple Music or ripped from CDs to their Mac's Apple Music app, those downloads, rips and Apple Music service streams can be controlled from an iOS device using the iTunes Remote app when Home Sharing is ON in the Mac. If Home Sharing is not ON, a device can be added manually. The iOS device will simply act like a remote controller and all audio will be sent from the Mac to any wired or Airplay connected device:

Once downloaded and set up, opening the app will show the Apple Music icon and also the name of the user for any available Mac library. So, something like John Doe’s Library. Multiple Mac libraries can be added and displayed. So, Jane Doe’s Mac library could also be listed:

Tap and the entire library in the selected Mac appears. Select a track and then Airplay to any receiver on the network.

The display is a bit different using the iTunes Remote app. Lossless is displayed in the Mac for the selected track but not on the iTunes Remote app display:

So, an iPhone, Mac and receiver may all be in different rooms but, if on the same network, Airplay can get the music library in a Mac to the speakers in front of the listener.

 

[lovinthehd]

It may be helpful to look at my Timeline at the bottom and see what I am after then if your so inclined, read my post. thanks!

I have spent the better part of the last year trying to learn my equipment in this hobby. I don't even know where to start, because I have no idea what topic this falls under.
the issue at hand is, Bluetooth vs. hard wired Ethernet in/HDMI out apple tv.
Background: 99% usage is two channel music listening and really my only concern here. As with all things money is a factor in rapid changes in equipment/services. For now, and the foreseeable future, the streaming service of choice is Apple music. After the AVR (primarily a processor), amp and speakers were acquired equipment purchases stopped. All was good with the world. for the time being I was streaming apple music via Bluetooth to the AVR. Not ideal, I get it.

After spending large amounts of time tweaking the system it was more than I ever expected. My biggest discovery was that Apple's Lossless is not an automatic setting and needs to be turned on. That was another positive leap forward in Dynamics. (side note: In my car there is zero audible difference to me.) For the months that followed, that set up worked great.
After countless hours of really enjoyable listening, I developed a clicking noise while listening. I would describe it as being very similar to a scratch on an album but at varying time differentials. It would come and go between listening sessions. I did some very crude internet search for solutions and the only thing I could find was that was a possible cause was the volume of music I downloaded to my iPhone was causing some sort of lag and therefore causing the static. So I tried rebooting my phone and that Seemed to work for a short time. When it returned, I tried my wife's brand-new phone with the same issue occurring.

One day when getting very annoyed at this noise I discovered a neat feature in my apple phone. I attempted to turn up the volume a little to try and more define the noise. In doing so I learned that if you double tap the volume up button is goes to full volume. Turns out, that's great when on the speaker phone, just not so good while Bluetoothing to a Marantz Cinema 60. My new fear in life became that I just blew out my speakers, amp, and or the AVR. After my heart started again, I checked, and all systems appeared to be in good working order. It was at that moment my bluetooth days were numbered. Cost wise for me the best temporary solution was to go with an Apple TV device. Of course, this put me over the limit of Lan connections on my router, so I had to acquire a Netgear switch. In an abundance of caution, I replaced and upgraded all of my old HDMI and cat cables. After installing my Apple TV all seemed ok except for the line level volume seemed low. Previous normal listening levels would be about the 30 numeric mark on the dial. Now it had to be at about 40+ mark. I also discovered that most dynamics were gone. Everything I have read and understood, told me I had to be wrong, and a direct connection would absolutely be better. I resorted back to the Bluetooth connection, and it was in fact a much better sound. And go figure, my original issue of static/clicking noise was gone and has not reappeared. Welcome to my life and the world of electronics. What did happen one day while listening, was the dynamics became so awful I thought my original fear of blowing something in the speaker had actually finally given out after my power dump. Upon listening inspection, I could not hear anything coming from one of the tweeters in both channels.

In an attempt to start the painful process of elimination here is what I have attempted with zero success in making the apple tv sound as least as good as Bluetooth.
The first thing I did was pull the tweeters at issue and fed a signal from another stereo to them. they both produced clean sound.
My next step was to inspect the speaker crossover. None of the caps appeared to be bulging. (my multimeter is fine for housing electrical but won't read down to resisters and caps)
After reassembling the one speaker, a good portion of the dynamics in both channels returned. Because I only touched one speaker, this told me that I had an intermittent problem and it wasn't in the speaker because I only touched one and they both regained some dynamics with the apple tv and all dynamics with Bluetooth.
One by one into my Marantz Cinema 60 I have swapped out the actual HDMI cables and put it into multiple different slots.
I swapped out all the cat cables and used different router and switch slots. No success!

Timeline recap:
1) Streaming Apple music Bluetooth to Marantz Cinema 60 AVR as good as anyone could expect. almost 72 hours of listening according to apple music, with no issues.
2) Developed an intermittent static noise/clicking while Bluetooth Streaming. Rebooted and tried different iPhones. iPhone 14+ no resolution. Problem returned.
3) Had accidental power/volume dump, equipment appeared ok and sound was the same on Bluetooth with static continuing intermittently. No change/ no resolution.
4) Added Apple TV and Netgear switch this appears to have gotten rid of the static issue on Bluetooth but Apple tv has a muffled sound and bad dynamics. This is not logical in my mind.
5) One day when listening all dynamics on apple tv and Bluetooth were gone. left with total flat mono sound. one tweeter of two, on each channel no sound. I tested the tweeter on one speaker with other source and it worked as it should. I examined speaker crossover with no visible cap issues. after reassembling the speaker dynamics returned in both speakers while Bluetooth remained more dynamic than Apple TV. I am assuming this improvement is coincidence and part if an intermittent problem.
6) Removed, replaced and swapped all HDMI and ethernet cables. changed the location port of all wires.
7) re checked and reset most of the EQ options on the Cinama 60
8) Current status: Bluetooth Apple music as good sounding as expected with no static. Apple TV is much less dynamic and flat sounding.
My brain is telling me this issue is either in the Cinema 60 or the Apple TV device.
I don't own or have the ability to use the required electronics to diagnose this.
For now, we can forget the non-existing intermittent issues, but I am open to any and all suggestions on what the next step would be to find out how a wired connection could sound so much worse than Bluetooth?
Thanks, and now you know a little about what it's like to be me.

A volume playback on your Marantz of 30-40 on the absolute scale is pretty low volume, if that was loud it seems your source is too high a level (or just a very high level). How did that volume setting work with other sources? I also wonder how you define dynamics.

 

[Focus SE]

Give Airplay 2 a try. If the Marantz is on your network, your Apple devices should see it.

Many don't like using their iOS devices for streaming from services or downloading music. They use their Macs for such things.

For those with music downloaded from Apple Music or ripped from CDs to their Mac's Apple Music app, those downloads, rips and Apple Music service streams can be controlled from an iOS device using the iTunes Remote app when Home Sharing is ON in the Mac. If Home Sharing is not ON, a device can be added manually. The iOS device will simply act like a remote controller and all audio will be sent from the Mac to any wired or Airplay connected device:
View attachment 65158

Once downloaded and set up, opening the app will show the Apple Music icon and also the name of the user for any available Mac library. So, something like John Doe’s Library. Multiple Mac libraries can be added and displayed. So, Jane Doe’s Mac library could also be listed:
View attachment 65159

Tap and the entire library in the selected Mac appears. Select a track and then Airplay to any receiver on the network.

The display is a bit different using the iTunes Remote app. Lossless is displayed in the Mac for the selected track but not on the iTunes Remote app display:
View attachment 65160

So, an iPhone, Mac and receiver may all be in different rooms but, if on the same network, Airplay can get the music library in a Mac to the speakers in front of the listener.

I Thank you and will revisit this in a couple of days. I have never used Airplay and somehow the AVR is asking for a password I never set up. So a factory reset is in my future. Had I known using a stereo could become this ridiculously complicated I'm not sure I would do it again.

 

[Focus SE]

A volume playback on your Marantz of 30-40 on the absolute scale is pretty low volume, if that was loud it seems your source is too high a level (or just a very high level). How did that volume setting work with other sources? I also wonder how you define dynamics.

What I was referring to with the volume was my average listening volume range. And the difference in using Bluetooth vs apple tv.
In order to get the approximate same listening loudness set at 30 while using Bluetooth, the volume control would need to be set to 40 or more on the Apple TV.
If you're asking about the massive spike in volume, that was a function of the phone that went to I believe the max of 98 instantly. The AVR volume dial will not allow that.

How do I define Dynamics? That is a really hard question to answer in my words. I guess I would say I use the term as somewhat of a catch all of the typical listening descriptions.
In terms of a simple difference, it would be like mono from a single driver vs multiple drivers in stereo. The opposite of the term flat. When closing your eyes, the separation, the staging/imaging and the very clear definition of instruments. it's a vibrance that comes at you separated but all at the same time. When you walk away from the sweet spot, a very good high end revealing system becomes just a good clear flattened system. Hopefully that makes sense. A friend once told me a very small percentage of people will understand what it is you are hearing. He was right. I would imagine at your level that percentage is much higher in your circle than mine. My immediate household thinks I'm nuts. But those handful of people that have come and listened with their eyes wide open and jaw dropped tells me I'm not alone. More I listen the more I hear. It's the difference between the sound of a good recording and a bad one.