Ceiling speakers & Atmos

[ensco]

Hello,

I’m thinking of upgrading to an AVR-X3600H, 3700, 4500, or 4700.

I currently have a 5.1 setup and with the upgrade am considering a 5.2.4 with 4 ceiling speakers – don’t think I can do 7.2.4.

For now I am keeping my 1080 Pany plasma and 1080 bluray player.

I understand the 4 ceiling channels/speakers will give me Dolby Atmos, DTS-X, And Auro-3D.

1) What other audio will playback through the ceiling (height channel) speakers ?
- Do some bluray 1080 movie discs
- Verizon HD cable channels (not 4k cable just HD cable)
- or bluray audio discs utilize these height channels in any way ?

2) Are the most available ways for me to take advantage of Dolby Atmos or DTS-X - to stream UHD or use a 4k bluray player ? (I know I won’t get the 4k video but I’ll get all the audio stuff – right ?)

3) I sometimes listen to CDs or watch cable TV using my AVRs mult-channel (frowned upon) stereo simulation function – I’m wondering how the added ceiling speakers might effect the sound when using mult-ch stereo simulation ?

4) Using my 1080p TV with a 5.2.4 setup – Am I missing anything in the audio domain ? I want a 4k TV but my plasma
continues to live on.

Thanks, ensco

 

[shadyJ]

I would go 7.2 before I would go for 5.2.2 or 5.2.4. There is far more content that has material for the rear surrounds than has Atmos sound mixes for height channels.

As for your questions, to answer them in order: the only media that takes advantage of height channels is some blu-rays and some streaming content. However, you can upmix to use those height channels, although it inherently is not as good as having original content for those channels.

I don't know about using multi-channel stereo for height channels. I don't fully understand the question.

You won't be missing anything by using 1080p display, except perhaps in cases where only the 4k version of a disc is encoded with Atmos and not the regular blu-ray.

 

[VMPS-TIII]

Hello,

I’m thinking of upgrading to an AVR-X3600H, 3700, 4500, or 4700.

I currently have a 5.1 setup and with the upgrade am considering a 5.2.4 with 4 ceiling speakers – don’t think I can do 7.2.4.

For now I am keeping my 1080 Pany plasma and 1080 bluray player.

I understand the 4 ceiling channels/speakers will give me Dolby Atmos, DTS-X, And Auro-3D.

1) What other audio will playback through the ceiling (height channel) speakers ?
- Do some bluray 1080 movie discs
- Verizon HD cable channels (not 4k cable just HD cable)
- or bluray audio discs utilize these height channels in any way ?

2) Are the most available ways for me to take advantage of Dolby Atmos or DTS-X - to stream UHD or use a 4k bluray player ? (I know I won’t get the 4k video but I’ll get all the audio stuff – right ?)

3) I sometimes listen to CDs or watch cable TV using my AVRs mult-channel (frowned upon) stereo simulation function – I’m wondering how the added ceiling speakers might effect the sound when using mult-ch stereo simulation ?

4) Using my 1080p TV with a 5.2.4 setup – Am I missing anything in the audio domain ? I want a 4k TV but my plasma
continues to live on.

Thanks, ensco

As you will install four height speakers I would go with the Denon 4700 as it supports Auro-3D. This feature allows your stereo music to be unmixed in 3D with your height speakers. It's a really nice mode for listening to music. You will also find the Height speakers offer an advantage with Atmos supported movies.

The Denon 3600 and 3700 do not offer Auro-3D. The 4500 offers it but's it a much more advanced implementation in the Denon 4700 with controls for fine tuning Auro-3D to meet your exact preferences.

You can also run the height speakers in multi-channel mode but I think after experiencing Auro-3D immersion and fine tuning it for your room with the Denon 4700 controls you may like it better - as I do.

 

[ensco]

Sorry I should have worded my last post differently.
Let me know your thoughts - thanks.

Like others I unfortunately have my main listening point (couch) about 1-1/2 ft from my back wall with surrounds mounted on side walls at approx. 90 degrees.

Because of the importance of adding rear surrounds, could I place 2 of the ceiling speakers as far back on the ceiling as they could go (close to the rear wall) connect them to the AVR as (rear surrounds) and place the other 2 ceiling speakers to a more forward position in the ceiling and connect them to the AVR as (height1) speakers for atmos - thus making a 7.2.2 setup.
Does this solution make sense or does using ceiling speakers as rear surrounds this close to the rear wall a bad idea ?

If it does seem like a good way to achieve 7.2.2 could I take it further to achieve 7.2.4 by adding 6 total ceiling speakers - 2 ceiling speakers all the way to the back wall as rear surrounds - and 4 ceiling speakers positioned more forward on the ceiling for atmos - making it a 7.2.4 setup. Does this make sense ?

One additional point though - I have only about 11ft from my front main speakers to the back wall - Is the room not deep enough to add so many ceiling speakers ?

Thank you again for all your responses.

Thanks, ensco

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Imo no. The room is not deep enough. Rear surrounds aren’t that important in the grand scheme. 7ch tracks just have the rear content folded into the regular surround speakers so it’s not like it’s just gone. And if you have the surrounds set up right, you should get nice phantom imaging behind anyway.
I would choose 5.1.4 over 7.1.2. Especially if your only a foot and a half off the back wall. Rear heights will basically be right overhead and while that’s not ideal, it’s more workable than rear surrounds directly behind your head. That’s a distraction and Definitely a step backwards.
For content, there are literally hundreds of BD’s and UHD’s with Atmos and dtsx. Not to mention all the streaming options. Plus, you can upmix any legacy tracks with DSU and DTSnx. I personally would not worry about Auro 3D as there is almost NO content here in the US. If your really into music though, it can be really nice.
All channel stereo? Can’t stand it myself and never even tried it on my own Atmos system. Can’t say what it would do.

 

[ensco]

Thanks William - Based on my room layout and seating. The seating being close to rear wall and front mains 11 ft from rear wall - Where do you suggest I place my 4 (Height channel) ceiling speakers ?

I know they need to be inline with front mains.
Would the back height channel speakers be placed around 1 ft from the back wall and the front height channel speakers be placed about 6 ft forward of them ?

Also, I am planning on using angled ceiling speakers with 15 degree adjustment.

ensco

 

[VMPS-TIII]

I personally would not worry about Auro 3D as there is almost NO content here in the US. If your really into music though, it can be really nice.
All channel stereo? Can’t stand it myself and never even tried it on my own Atmos system. Can’t say what it would do.

Auro 3D does not require tracks created explicitly for it. Any stereo feed will due. The Denon 4700 will up mix the sound to Auro-3D with front and rear Height speakers and you can customize room size as well as other settings.

 

[VMPS-TIII]

Thanks William - Based on my room layout and seating. The seating being close to rear wall and front mains 11 ft from rear wall - Where do you suggest I place my 4 (Height channel) ceiling speakers ?

I know they need to be inline with front mains.
Would the back height channel speakers be placed around 1 ft from the back wall and the front height channel speakers be placed about 6 ft forward of them ?

Also, I am planning on using angled ceiling speakers with 15 degree adjustment.

ensco

Page 57 of the Denon 4700 manual has an example for placement.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Auro 3D does not require tracks created explicitly for it. Any stereo feed will due. The Denon 4700 will up mix the sound to Auro-3D with front and rear Height speakers and you can customize room size as well as other settings.

Yep. I’ve become familiar with it. There are movies with Auro on them, but afaik you have to import most of them. I’m just saying that Ime between DSU and DTSnx there’s no need to make accommodations for it. If an AVR comes with it, great. Also, iirc, Auro shares more with earlier literature for dtsx.
If you have IC tops then I don’t know exactly what Auro would bring to the table, and don’t know if it will phantom image the VOG channel between the four tops.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Thanks William - Based on my room layout and seating. The seating being close to rear wall and front mains 11 ft from rear wall - Where do you suggest I place my 4 (Height channel) ceiling speakers ?

I know they need to be inline with front mains.
Would the back height channel speakers be placed around 1 ft from the back wall and the front height channel speakers be placed about 6 ft forward of them ?

Also, I am planning on using angled ceiling speakers with 15 degree adjustment.

ensco

Well the don’t need to necessarily be in line with the mains. First thing is what’s the ceiling height? And normally you’d go for 45° fore and aft the LP. That means whatever the height from seated ear to the ceiling is how far in front and behind they’d go. Obviously that won’t work here so imo, I’d go 45° in front, and as far back with the rear tops as you can.

 

[VMPS-TIII]

Lots of options...

 

[ensco]

I have had my 5.1 setup for many years and just recently considered this 5.2.4 upgrade (also adding a sub).

Would you guys consider adding these (Ht channel) ceiling speakers a big improvement to a 5.1 setup ( I realize this is a very subjective question) ?

Asking cause there is a fair amount of cost/effort to install ceiling speakers even though I'm planning this as a DIY project - I'm interested in upgrading if there's a decent improvement.

Almost forgot - My ceiling height is 8 ft.

Again thank you all for your responses and information - It is much appreciated.

ensco

 

[shadyJ]

Given you are seated so close to the back wall, I would stay with 5.2.2. You just don't have room to take advantage of those extra height channels.

What you should think about instead, being seated so close to the back wall, is getting some acoustic absorbers there since you are close to an area of acoustic reflection.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I have had my 5.1 setup for many years and just recently considered this 5.2.4 upgrade (also adding a sub).

Would you guys consider adding these (Ht channel) ceiling speakers a big improvement to a 5.1 setup ( I realize this is a very subjective question) ?

Asking cause there is a fair amount of cost/effort to install ceiling speakers even though I'm planning this as a DIY project - I'm interested in upgrading if there's a decent improvement.

Almost forgot - My ceiling height is 8 ft.

Again thank you all for your responses and information - It is much appreciated.

ensco

No worries. Glad to offer anything that can help. As you’ve probably read, there are varying opinions on all immersive audio formats, pretty much like always when we move on to the next best thing. The funny thing is Atmos has been available for home use for almost 8yrs. Like always, some mixes are awesome, and some beg the question of why anyone bothered to mix a track at all. Like many, I didn’t know what to expect, especially after reading all the hype. Kinda rambling I guess. But the point is, a format can only be supported as good as the hardware installation. The good news is Atmos is pretty forgiving, and since every room has its compromises that is good for us that don’t have perfect rooms.
To answer your question. I have two 5.x systems in my house and a 7.3.4. In every single way, the Atmos setup is better.(equipment notwithstanding lol). So my advice is to move forward with it. As Ime it IS better, and is worth the effort. It has been for me.
Even if some soundtracks don’t have an immersive(Atmos or dtsX) track, the upmixers, DSU and DTSNX are great for giving and immersive experience.
That probably went in a circle. Going to find coffee.....

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I agree with shady a little bit too. 5.x.2 might be the best fit although I would encourage you to move the seating ahead if possible. Also, some absorption would be very helpful too. Since reflections can hurt any speaker system, it only makes sense, and makes it worse by having more speakers. And imaging on XYZ axies is what object based immersive audio is all about.

 

[VMPS-TIII]

If your couch is within 18" of the back wall rear speakers would be really close for my taste.

 

[ensco]

I can move the couch forward to get seating around 3ft from the rear wall - I assume the couch helps somewhat for absorption - The couch is almost 4ft high and 7ft wide - There's a 7ft wide window behind the couch on the rear wall - Luckily though there are also some heavy window curtains I can close to help with reflections. Floor is also wall to wall carpeted.

Based on the slight seating change (improvement) and current absorption
Should I still cut back to a 5.2.2 or use a 5.2.4 setup ?

ensco

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I can move the couch forward to get seating around 3ft from the rear wall - I assume the couch helps somewhat for absorption - The couch is almost 4ft high and 7ft wide - There's a 7ft wide window behind the couch on the rear wall - Luckily though there are also some heavy window curtains I can close to help with reflections. Floor is also wall to wall carpeted.

Based on the slight seating change (improvement) and current absorption
Should I still cut back to a 5.2.2 or use a 5.2.4 setup ?

ensco

Imo, that would be close enough. With an 8’ ceiling I’d expect 45° to be at about 4.5’ fore and aft. Hearing behind us isn’t that acute so a little variation is ok. FWIW though, for rear surrounds ala 7ch I feel like 5-6’ is good.

 

[VMPS-TIII]

Based on the slight seating change (improvement) and current absorption
Should I still cut back to a 5.2.2 or use a 5.2.4 setup ?

ensco

It's really a matter of personal preference. If you plan to get a Denon 4700 and use the Auro-3D feature as I do for music then I would go with 5.2.4. I would install front and rear heights for this. Auro-3D is less desirable with only front heights.

However, if this is mostly for movies and you won't get a Denon 4700 or use Auro-3D then I would consider 5.2.2. ATMOS will use the front and rear heights as well so you might want 5.2.4 any way... lol

I know I would miss my rear heights.... but your use may be different?

 

[Kleinst]

I would add .4 if you are going to do it