Can you hear a difference in Sound between Audio Amplifiers?

Do Amplifiers Sound Different?

  • Yes

    Votes: 103 60.2%
  • No

    Votes: 52 30.4%
  • crikets crickets....What?

    Votes: 16 9.4%

  • Total voters
    171
Art Vandelay

Art Vandelay

Audioholic
In 1945, Howard A Chinn and Phillip Eisenberg of CBS performed another true DBT; this time limiting the frequency response to a set of bands (40~10K; 80~7K and 180~4K. The audience preferred the 180~4K limited music to the 80~7K and the fewest preferred the 40~10K. The conclusion was that people preferred the sound quality they were used to.

Later, Roger E Kirk of Ohio State University repeated the Chinn-Eisenberg experiment with untrained college students chosen at random. After confirming the Chinn-Eisenberg results (they were the same) he divided the students into three groups; one which was exposed to a series of music performances via an unfiltered system, one exposed to the same music with a moderately filtered system, and one whom were not exposed to any music at all.

Now those who were trained, so to speak, on the HiFi system now preferred that system; those exposed to the MidFi system now preferred it, and those who were not exposed retained their initial preference to LoFi.

Just one example where DBTs can give misleading results ... after all, the untrained audiences preferred the lowest quality sound while the trained audience preferred the highest .
That's interesting. I would wonder though if results were biased because the recording itself was mastered to sound best on a low-fi or via a band limited medium etc.

But that result does tie in with my general observation that people tend to feel comfortable with the sound they've lived and grown up with. Perhaps this also explains why some people can't readily give up their vinyl LP's and SET amplifiers, or indeed why today's youth prefer music with near zero dynamic range.

As far as DBT's go, I tend not to place too much emphasis on them unless I'm personally involved, and from observation the average audiophile can take them or leave them because they will generally place their own judgement above and beyond third party listening test results anyway, regardless of the level of credibility. At the end of the day DBT's are only as valid as the person setting it up wants them to be, and it's really not too difficult to engineer an outcome from behind a convincing veil of procedural and process rigour.

For me personally, extended listening allows me to best identify the various flaws and weaknesses in my system components.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
Those good old days when 8 ohm speakers were really 8 ohms and not 3 ohms + reactive as they are today.
Resistance and impedance are not the same thing, which one should understand if they are arguing for the relevance of damping factor. But then you're trying to claim loudspeakers were not reactive in 1975...
 
Art Vandelay

Art Vandelay

Audioholic
Resistance and impedance are not the same thing, which one should understand if they are arguing for the relevance of damping factor. But then you're trying to claim loudspeakers were not reactive in 1975...
I'm not claiming anything at all. Merely pointing out the fact that most multi-way speakers are lower impedance and more complex loads than used to be the case. This is particularly the case at the very high end.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
The (2) mentioned receivers from Panasonic and Pioneer both failed the FTC preconditioning requirement, if the (1) hour preconditioning was done their published power output specs would be decreased 30-50%. The power face-off in the titan receivers was won by the Marantz 2500/2600. Whose amplifiers were designed in the USA by their pro-audio R&D team, based upon their highly sucessful pro amplifier 510/510M. The key to the excellent sonics of the Marantz amplifiers is that they used a minimum amount of negative feed-back with a full-complimentary output toplogy so they were very stable even under high driving transient conditions... Back in the late 70s', Marantz didn't play the same max spec game, they were truthful about their specs thats why in most brochure comparisons they had less power than the competition. However into a 4 ohm load they would generally show an increase of 25-35% in power output with a doubling of their THD specs..

Just my $0.02... ;)
The interesting part of the Technics/Pioneer review, to my mind, is the complete lack of even order HD and the relative large amounts of odd order HD in the capture of the spectrum analyzer plot for the Pioneer.

Although it was not measured, we can reasonably expect that an amp with such a harmonic profile would also exhibit a high damping factor, as the cancellation of even orders and generation of odd orders is characteristic of high levels of Global Negative Feedback.

I didn't see where the two components failed the FTC pre-conditioning which was at the time one-third power versus today's less stringent one sixth. Is that specifically mentioned in the text?

If so, I find that curious, as the FTC rule specifically prohibits advertising power specifications that cannot be maintained for the full pre-conditioning and afterward (during the actual power test). Yet both receivers specify a power rating into both 4 and 8 ohm loads, which would make the power specifications provided by the manufacturer(s) to be non-compliant.

In any case, it's not a serious issue to me (these products are not for sale today), just academic interest. Leonard Feldman was hardly the most rigorous measurer of audio gear, as Audio magazine didn't like to rattle the cage of advertisers, although not quite to the extent of the tests reported in Stereo Review and performed in Julian Hirsch's basement.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
There are a few manufacturers that do specify the output impedance at a specific frequency or range of frequencies, but it's a pretty simple calculation to convert from Z to DF, so I'm fine with either as long as the figure is reasonably accurate.

If I decide to design my own active sub-woofer with Qtc = 0.707 then I definitely do need to know the output impedance of my amplifier.
Why bother calculating the DF if you have the Z vs freq? I would just use the info to find out if there are potential damping related issues. If you meant the overall system DF specific for your system, not the so called DF of the amp, then okay we are saying more or less the same thing. I am not sure if there is such a thing "DF" for the overall system though, if at least for reasons you cited in your previous posts. The thing is, as soon as you inflicted the term "DF", people would think you refer to typical definition by manufacturers such as Crownaudio.

https://www.crownaudio.com/en/faq_categories/1#faq_16
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
I didn't see where the two components failed the FTC pre-conditioning which was at the time one-third power versus today's less stringent one sixth. Is that specifically mentioned in the text?

If so, I find that curious, as the FTC rule specifically prohibits advertising power specifications that cannot be maintained for the full pre-conditioning and afterward (during the actual power test). Yet both receivers specify a power rating into both 4 and 8 ohm loads, which would make the power specifications provided by the manufacturer(s) to be non-compliant.

In any case, it's not a serious issue to me (these products are not for sale today), just academic interest. Leonard Feldman was hardly the most rigorous measurer of audio gear, as Audio magazine didn't like to rattle the cage of advertisers, although not quite to the extent of the tests reported in Stereo Review and performed in Julian Hirsch's basement.
A couple of points...
The FTC preconditioning requirement is before making any power/THD measurements the unit must be driven(both channels) @ 1/3 rated power for an hour. Neither the Panasonic or Pioneer was capable to meet this requirement without cycling on/off....
This builds up tremendous heat within the output stage and power supply, so when the power output for the Panasonic and Pioneer is measured their published rating decreased by 40-50%.. The Marantz 2500/2600 used a clever servo tunnel cooling system similar to that in their pro-amplifier 510/510M.
The competition between Pioneer and Marantz was very intense, when Pioneer continued to run their national advertising for their inflated power output ratings Marantz filed litigation with the FTC. End result was Pioneer was served with a cease/desist order by the FTC.

However note that following this...
The FTC backed off any more monitoring for power output specifications, turning it over to the CEA trade association. The CEA then through their standards committees made up of Bose, Panasonic, Sony came up with EIA 490 standard which relaxed significantly the subject test conditions. Thats why today once again, we have certain BS violations for published power output specifications that are out-of-control..
Here is 1 example of a bogus claim..
https://www.amazon.com/Pyle-P3001AT-3000W-Hybrid-Amplifier/dp/B0010KCP5M/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1514600373&sr=8-11&keywords=pyle+amplifier 3KW for $150?? :(:(

Since we have done product development/sourcing of AVRs for some of the popular audio brands I can enumerate multiple examples of just outright lies. Today the published power output specs are created by the marketing/sales teams not the engineers.

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
My favourite is the "900 watt" LG home-theatre-in-a-box of a couple of years ago. It's why you see non-standard speaker connectors, like RCAs > captive at opposite end.
Firstly, a complete system with speakers is exempt from the FTC rule.
The speakers impedance is 3 ohms.
They use the multichannel trick (FTC has also interpreted the rule to not apply to more than 2-channel systems, so exempt two ways) of measuring one channel and multiplying by five.

So ... 900 / 5 = 180 watts.
@ 3 ohms is roughly 68 watts 8 ohm equivalent (I'm being generous, 2 ohms = 45w)
So 68w 1 channel driven; if you want to compare it to another component HT receiver, maybe about 40w / 5 channels driven.
Power is also specified @ 1 KHz (easiest frequency to drive) and 10% THD.
So maybe even 25w 8 ohms HT receiver equivalent, which can be an inexpensive chip amp-based unit.

Note: the FTC rule was modified in the 1990's to 1/6 preconditioning. The heat buildup is only truly an issue with Class A and AB amps; Class D do not really heat up much under any pre-conditioning power level. And even then, 1/6 is much less stressful on A & A/B than ⅓.
 
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M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
My favourite is the "900 watt" LG home-theatre-in-a-box of a couple of years ago. It's why you see non-standard speaker connectors, like RCAs > captive at opposite end.
Firstly, a complete system with speakers is exempt from the FTC rule.
Not true.. If the amplifier has an output power >2W, the latest standard (490) states that power output, THD, load impedance, bandwidth should be disclosed...

The speakers impedance is 3 ohms.
They use the multichannel trick (FTC has also interpreted the rule to not apply to more than 2-channel systems, so exempt two ways) of measuring one channel and multiplying by five.

So ... 900 / 5 = 180 watts.
@ 3 ohms is roughly 68 watts 8 ohm equivalent (I'm being generous, 2 ohms = 45w)
So 68w 1 channel driven; if you want to compare it to another component HT receiver, maybe about 40w / 5 channels driven.
Power is also specified @ 1 KHz (easiest frequency to drive) and 10% THD.
So maybe even 25w 8 ohms HT receiver equivalent, which can be an inexpensive chip amp-based unit.

Note: the FTC rule was modified in the 1990's to 1/6 preconditioning. The heat buildup is only truly an issue with Class A and AB amps; Class D do not really heat up much under any pre-conditioning power level. And even then, 1/6 is much less stressful on A & A/B than ⅓.
Published power output disclosures today are out of control..
Even though there are specified test conditions, they are ignored and virtually every brand is violating the standards either knowingly or unknowingly.. The FTC has moved on... this is just another statue on the books but not enforced.. The established, respectable audio brands make a genuine effort to be honest but the rest are just outright liars who max the numbers..

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
What would Floyd know? ;) ;) :D
We have known Floyd Toole and Sean Olive for >20 years, worked on several projects with them...
Between these (2) guys they know mucho about acoustics besides being very personable, and both do alot of presentations @ the CEDIA & AES shows... If one has a chance to attend one of these, they are highly recommended.

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
We have known Floyd Toole and Sean Olive for >20 years, worked on several projects with them...
Between these (2) guys they know mucho about acoustics besides being very personable, and both do alot of presentations @ the CEDIA & AES shows... If one has a chance to attend one of these, they are highly recommended.

Just my $0.02... ;)
Yes, I know of him, read a bunch of his papers, interviews, etc. I bumped into them at the 98 AES convention.
I guess my sarcasm wasn't so obvious even with those two winks. ;)
 
Art Vandelay

Art Vandelay

Audioholic
Although it was not measured, we can reasonably expect that an amp with such a harmonic profile would also exhibit a high damping factor, as the cancellation of even orders and generation of odd orders is characteristic of high levels of Global Negative Feedback.
The harmonic profile has more to do with the amplifier architecture than open loop gain. Differential and symmetrical push-pull stages will naturally cancel the even order products.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Not true.. If the amplifier has an output power >2W, the latest standard (490) states that power output, THD, load impedance, bandwidth should be disclosed...



Published power output disclosures today are out of control..
Even though there are specified test conditions, they are ignored and virtually every brand is violating the standards either knowingly or unknowingly.. The FTC has moved on... this is just another statue on the books but not enforced.. The established, respectable audio brands make a genuine effort to be honest but the rest are just outright liars who max the numbers..

Just my $0.02... ;)
Yes, one of the things I like about Anthem AV receivers is they specify power as if the FTC rule applied (all channels driven, 20~20 KHz at x% THD, into x impedance).

One of the things about FTC ratings that is sometimes overlooked, is it applied to *advertised* power only, specifically aimed at ads in consumer magazines. It does not prohibit creative power specifications, it only prohibits the use of a font style or size that is more prominent than the FTC method if alternate ratings are used. If it's all the same typeface, all good and legal.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
The harmonic profile has more to do with the amplifier architecture than open loop gain. Differential and symmetrical push-pull stages will naturally cancel the even order products.
True, but NFB lowers all distortion components, including even order harmonics, should they exist, regardless of architecture. However, even though it acts to lower *total*HD (the sum of all harmonics) the individual odd orders are increased in level. As the human ear/brain is more sensitive to ever lower percentages of harmonics as the multiple increases (eg "high order harmonics") this can result in an audibly less pleasant sonic quality.

For example, given an amplifier that measures at 1% 2HD, 0.5% 3HD, and unmeasurable 4~9HD, the THD would be roughly 1.5%. As H2 and H3 are natural components of musical instruments, they are perceived as un-objectionable by the listener. The effect might be to blur the sound ("tone") of a Hammond Concert Grand piano so that it might sound similar to a Yamaha Concert Grand, but will not be unpleasant.

Apply NFB, and the measured distortion might be 0.1% 2HD, 0.05% 3HD and negligible even order HD from H4~8 (total 0.15%) but may also have odd order H3~9 of 0.1% where none existed before, resulting in perhaps 0.5% THD. The effect may be to make the sound clearly a Hammond but a Hammond that doesn't sound "right", as odd order harmonics are not always related to the fundamental in nature.

A seemingly large reduction in THD but with a more objectionable harmonic profile.

Another look at the issue we can explore music created prior to the mid-1990s to a certain extent and prior to Ry Cooder's "Bop Till You Drop" album of about 1978~9 in every extent (that album was the first released with digital recording, mixing and mastering, versus recorded on magnetic tape)*. The nature of magnetic tape is, although pro level decks were capable of low distortion with SNRs of 65+ dB (90dB with DBX encoding), if you look at the harmonic profile, the H3 would be prominent, as that is the primary distortion characteristic of magnetic tape.

Now, I don't know too many people who think their Led Zepplin albums sound "bad", even though there is a relatively strong 3HD component to the entire recording. (Originally, when mag tape was first introduced an became popular in the 1950's, the "THD" spec referred not to total harmonic distortion, but to third harmonic distortion).

Clearly the distortion profile, together with the total distortion level, is important for our enjoyment of a recorded performance.

* I often wonder if there wasn't a transfer to 2-track, as there may not have been any record pressing plant that could accept any other format at that time.
 
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M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Yes, one of the things I like about Anthem AV receivers is they specify power as if the FTC rule applied (all channels driven, 20~20 KHz at x% THD, into x impedance).
Anthem AVRs are solid products, my only observation is that they are slow for providing firmware updates. The majority of their products are assembled in Vietnam @ the same factory that originally nuilt the majority of Harman/Kardon and Marantz AVRs. We know this factory well have been sourcing from them for > 25 years, the parent company is based in Seoul, Korea.

One of the things about FTC ratings that is sometimes overlooked, is it applied to *advertised* power only, specifically aimed at ads in consumer magazines. It does not prohibit creative power specifications, it only prohibits the use of a font style or size that is more prominent than the FTC method if alternate ratings are used. If it's all the same typeface, all good and legal.
The way the original FTC statue(73) reads..
There are primary disclosures and secondary disclosures, secondary disclosures must be in smaller font type and/or not bold. A major issue today is AVRs are distributed on a global basis so brochures, web pages have info for Euro spec products and they use terms like DIN power which confuses things even further.
Bottom line...
No one monitors/enforces these specs and the CE brands can get away with almost anything..



Just my $0.02... ;)
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Anthem AVRs are solid products, my only observation is that they are slow for providing firmware updates. The majority of their products are assembled in Vietnam @ the same factory that originally nuilt the majority of Harman/Kardon and Marantz AVRs. We know this factory well have been sourcing from them for > 25 years, the parent company is based in Seoul, Korea.



The way the original FTC statue(73) reads..
There are primary disclosures and secondary disclosures, secondary disclosures must be in smaller font type and/or not bold. A major issue today is AVRs are distributed on a global basis so brochures, web pages have info for Euro spec products and they use terms like DIN power which confuses things even further.
Bottom line...
No one monitors/enforces these specs and the CE brands can get away with almost anything..



Just my $0.02... ;)
Yes, one common practice in the 70s when most manufacturers were compliant, printed Point-of-Sale material was standard procedure, and brochures were specific to the market, in the case of FTC compliance, US/Canada, was to comply with the "and/or not bold" by specifying FTC compliant specs in bold and others in the same size typeface but not bolded, or a smaller typeface.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Anthem AVRs are solid products, my only observation is that they are slow for providing firmware updates. The majority of their products are assembled in Vietnam @ the same factory that originally nuilt the majority of Harman/Kardon and Marantz AVRs. We know this factory well have been sourcing from them for > 25 years, the parent company is based in Seoul, Korea.



The way the original FTC statue(73) reads..
There are primary disclosures and secondary disclosures, secondary disclosures must be in smaller font type and/or not bold. A major issue today is AVRs are distributed on a global basis so brochures, web pages have info for Euro spec products and they use terms like DIN power which confuses things even further.
Bottom line...
No one monitors/enforces these specs and the CE brands can get away with almost anything..



Just my $0.02... ;)
In the words of Tom Waits, in his song 'Step Right Up', "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away".

Pro audio uses real specs- consumer audio should, too. Period. If people want BS, let them write their own.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
For example, given an amplifier that measures at 1% 2HD, 0.5% 3HD, and unmeasurable 4~9HD, the THD would be roughly 1.5%. As H2 and H3 are natural components of musical instruments, they are perceived as un-objectionable by the listener. The effect might be to blur the sound ("tone") of a Hammond Concert Grand piano so that it might sound similar to a Yamaha Concert Grand, but will not be unpleasant.
Hammond hasn't made pianos since about 1930, and to my knowledge they only made upright and player pianos when they did make them. More recently, obviously, they make organs...

Also, any "blurring" of the fundamental due to distortion would mean the distortion is very high in level, certainly no more than 40db below the level of the fundamentals. I'm not aware of any amplifiers, save, perhaps, a single-ended tube thing, that might have distortion that high.
 
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