Can you hear a difference in Sound between Audio Amplifiers?

[Irvrobinson]

I only brought up the Davis paper because you wrote The problem is that cables measure exactly alike, and didn't know how to read that.
Maybe I should have filtered your writing more in my reply.

That sentence of mine was a bit obtuse. I clearly confused PENG too. I should have said that identical signals sent through two properly designed cables for a given application will measure exactly alike.

 

[3db]

I did? Well, I must be dense, because I just reread it and it doesn't feel like I missed your point. Can you elaborate more for the mentally challenged?

You are arguing the findings of Floyd Toole about short/long term memory accuracy. Why don't you elaborate on your findings?

 

[mtrycrafts]

So then listening for a component for days on end won't reveal large audible differences that may have been subtle in a controlled test.

Not sure I understand how you mean this listening is done over time. Was comparisons carried out between two components during those days of listening or just listening to one component and after days switching to another and trying to decide if a difference exists or days of comparisons then deciding?
Well, if you can do this and pile up a sufficient number of trials to have meaning, then you must have decided withing those few seconds to start with, otherwise I have no other answers, I didn't research this memory

It seems you have 100% missed the mark on what I was saying.

Not sure anyone knows who you are replying to with no quotes from that person.

 

[mtrycrafts]

You might find those words in a review on Audioholics

- Rich

Well, I am a guest here so I would not bite the host's hand

 

[Gordonj]

Ok, so I have conducted a very scientific study that required intense brain power and a large amount of money flooding into the coffers in order to fund the process.. sorry ..

I have asked several friends of mine that design and work for world respected amp manufactures (all on the pro commercial side) manufactures such as Harmon, Crown, QSC, Lab and Crest, and they all say there are differences in each companies amp's sound and it can be heard (as I have heard myself but that is without saying). When asked how do you show/represent the differences with a spec, etc they all laugh and say "if I could show that I would be rich"... Ok so there you go.....

 

[Pyrrho]

I only brought up the Davis paper because you wrote The problem is that cables measure exactly alike, and didn't know how to read that.
Maybe I should have filtered your writing more in my reply.

It is strange that some people want one to ignore what they write when responding to them, as otherwise one is "misunderstanding" them. Instead of writing what is meant, they expect others to be mind readers, and blame others for failing to be able to do that.

 

[Irvrobinson]

You are arguing the findings of Floyd Toole about short/long term memory accuracy. Why don't you elaborate on your findings?

"Findings" is a strong word. It implies the outcome of research, which I haven't done. I have participated in a few SBT and DBT tests of electronics over the years to know that it is very difficult to identify differences, no less preferences, in comparative testing. Years ago, at a local dealer, I was part of a comparison test where we listened to entire selections on a CD on two different amplifiers, and no one could reliably tell the amps apart. Faster switching didn't help. So it's just my Opinion, with a capital O, is that auditory memory is irrelevant in comparison testing with amps because the differences tend to be so subtle that they seem to be beyond most people's capability to remember sounds at all.

In post #22 of this thread I contributed my view, that I've experienced what I perceived as lower listening fatigue with some amplifiers. It's completely non-scientific, I have no objective evidence, and while I've made decisions based on that opinion I don't advocate that others do that. Nonetheless, I do have a lot of curiosity about the effect I've noticed.

 

[Irvrobinson]

It is strange that some people want one to ignore what they write when responding to them, as otherwise one is "misunderstanding" them. Instead of writing what is meant, they expect others to be mind readers, and blame others for failing to be able to do that.

Untrue. I took ownership for that obtuse sentence before you posted this.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Are there any sources that I could look into that shows this? Any articles or studies that show that auditory memory is poor for subtle audio details?

Let me try to give an example that may not be totally appropriate: comparing paint chips. Can you remember the color if you look at it for a long time and then removing that color and comparing it to another color? Or, do you not scan it side by side or even overlapping the chips and scanning back and forth to see if you can see a difference if there is only very small shade differences? How about large differences like two different colors altogether, that is easy to remember.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Ok, so I have conducted a very scientific study that required intense brain power and a large amount of money flooding into the coffers in order to fund the process.. sorry ..

I have asked several friends of mine that design and work for world respected amp manufactures (all on the pro commercial side) manufactures such as Harmon, Crown, QSC, Lab and Crest, and they all say there are differences in each companies amp's sound and it can be heard (as I have heard myself but that is without saying). When asked how do you show/represent the differences with a spec, etc they all laugh and say "if I could show that I would be rich"... Ok so there you go.....

But how do they listen??? Are they immune from bias because they work in the filed? That just doesn't cut it.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... Years ago, at a local dealer, I was part of a comparison test where we listened to entire selections on a CD on two different amplifiers, and no one could reliably tell the amps apart. Faster switching didn't help. So it's just my Opinion, with a capital O, is that auditory memory is irrelevant in comparison testing with amps because the differences tend to be so subtle that they seem to be beyond most people's capability to remember sounds at all.
...

Yes, I buy this totally. But, to increase your chance of detecting ever smaller thresholds that is where it can be a game changer. However, quick switching is still only a small part of it. You cannot keep the music going as now you compare the past to what happens after the switching. Reading research on codec development, they put very short segments into a loop so you compare the same exact passage and in some cases just a few notes are in loop to compare.
The last part of your line tells the story. Not sure how one could remember anything when the process runs into days, weeks or months.

 

[RichB]

Yes, I buy this totally. But, to increase your chance of detecting ever smaller thresholds that is where it can be a game changer. However, quick switching is still only a small part of it. You cannot keep the music going as now you compare the past to what happens after the switching. Reading research on codec development, they put very short segments into a loop so you compare the same exact passage and in some cases just a few notes are in loop to compare.
The last part of your line tells the story. Not sure how one could remember anything when the process runs into days, weeks or months.

I agree but maybe quality A/B amps are more likely to sound alike than class-D or H.
However, if there is to be a comparison including a crown XLS2xxx, Sunfire, Emotiva XPR rail switcher, or Outlaw M2200 might make it interesting.

- Rich

 

[PENG]

Depends on your definition of entry level I suppose. At an MSRP of $599, it isn't exactly at the bottom of the totem pole.


They're designed to drive 8 ohm nominal speakers to be sure, but if a $600 AVR can't deliver 1W cleanly into a 4 ohm resistive load, that's pretty sad any way you dice it.

Sorry for repeating so many times that the poll is not useful. This is just another example that I would answer yes if the amps being compared are those of that Onkyo and my Bryston. If we were to compare a 3000 series Onkyo to a 3000 or even 2000 series Yamaha, a 3000/4000 series Denon and a Bryston, ATI, or Outlaw, my answer would probably be different.

 

[PENG]

I'll give an example; JBL/Yamaha combo tends to be a bit fatiguing. Change to a HK, Marantz, Parasound and there will be no fatigue.
I know that from personal experience.

I assume you are stating this as your opinion, not necessarily facts? I have listened to HK, Marantz, Parasound, Yamaha, Denon products, to me those talks of layback, forward are BS, the quality of the recording decidedly affect how lay back, forward the sound would seem, now I am stating my opinion, not necessarily facts.

 

[PENG]

But how do they listen??? Are they immune from bias because they work in the filed? That just doesn't cut it.

And I hope they were just non professional engineers doing shop talks. If it was for real, they wouldn't worry much about specs becasue people would have to bring their familar media source and find ways to do many SBT or ST before buying. Specs and measurements would mean next to nothing.. And jokes aside, if they were for real, I wouldn't touch their products, I have no faith in designers/engineers who don't even know why their products sound the way they sound, I would rather go with those who do get rich.

 

[jinjuku]

Ok, so I have conducted a very scientific study that required intense brain power and a large amount of money flooding into the coffers in order to fund the process.. sorry ..

I have asked several friends of mine that design and work for world respected amp manufactures (all on the pro commercial side) manufactures such as Harmon, Crown, QSC, Lab and Crest, and they all say there are differences in each companies amp's sound and it can be heard (as I have heard myself but that is without saying). When asked how do you show/represent the differences with a spec, etc they all laugh and say "if I could show that I would be rich"... Ok so there you go.....

I'm not buying. Bob Lee at QSC (Lead Applications Engineer) clearly states publicly if your amp is sounding different (given within spec and speaker load) then it is either an 'audiophile' amp or poorly designed.

I've also had extensive PM's with Peavys lead engineer on the IPR Series (J.D. Bennett) and that has hasn't been an issue with him either.

Now what I am sure that engineers will say at Crown, QSC, Peavey, Crest, Lab, AB Int is that they don't design their amps to sound terrible.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

Now what I am sure that engineers will say at Crown, QSC, Peavey, Crest, Lab, AB Int is that they don't design their amps to sound terrible.

Then, that would mean they design the amps to sound good, no?

 

[3db]

"Findings" is a strong word. It implies the outcome of research, which I haven't done. I have participated in a few SBT and DBT tests of electronics over the years to know that it is very difficult to identify differences, no less preferences, in comparative testing. Years ago, at a local dealer, I was part of a comparison test where we listened to entire selections on a CD on two different amplifiers, and no one could reliably tell the amps apart. Faster switching didn't help. So it's just my Opinion, with a capital O, is that auditory memory is irrelevant in comparison testing with amps because the differences tend to be so subtle that they seem to be beyond most people's capability to remember sounds at all.

I can agree that faster switching may not help determine a difference. What I take issue with is when people state categorically that they remember that the sound of their amp was not as bright or had tighter bass or whatever subjective fluff words people want to toss at it from several days to as far back as a year ago. Color be coloured if you want but that just doesn't wash.

In post #22 of this thread I contributed my view, that I've experienced what I perceived as lower listening fatigue with some amplifiers. It's completely non-scientific, I have no objective evidence, and while I've made decisions based on that opinion I don't advocate that others do that. Nonetheless, I do have a lot of curiosity about the effect I've noticed.

I remember that and I'm leaning towards that too very cautiously because of all the influencing factors such as frame of mind, time of day, ambient noise, matched output levels, seating postion, etc that could color the perception.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I can agree that faster switching may not help determine a difference. What I take issue with is when people state categorically that they remember that the sound of their amp was not as bright or had tighter bass or whatever subjective fluff words people want to toss at it from several days to as far back as a year ago. Color be coloured if you want but that just doesn't wash.

Agreed. To be honest, I was surprised by my first structured comparison testing experience. (Back in the late 1980s, SBT, with CD players.) It is really easy to get confused, a reaction I didn't expect.

I remember that and I'm leaning towards that too very cautiously because of all the influencing factors such as frame of mind, time of day, ambient noise, matched output levels, seating position, etc that could color the perception.

I'm as cautious as you are, frankly. And my system sounds different to me on different days. Sometimes I just have to leave it off for a day or two. Nonetheless, to me at least, the fatigue effect seems real. I keep searching for hints of measurements that might support my theory, because if it can't be measured it doesn't exist.

 

[Gordonj]

I'm not buying. Bob Lee at QSC (Lead Applications Engineer) clearly states publicly if your amp is sounding different (given within spec and speaker load) then it is either an 'audiophile' amp or poorly designed.

I've also had extensive PM's with Peavys lead engineer on the IPR Series (J.D. Bennett) and that has hasn't been an issue with him either.

Now what I am sure that engineers will say at Crown, QSC, Peavey, Crest, Lab, AB Int is that they don't design their amps to sound terrible.

Again, I say there are some differences however, the discussions is better spent on speakers and DAC's and all those DSP's that people use on their systems. All that will effect the sound much more then a given amp change.

Buy the best amp that you can afford that meets the load requirements that you have and be done with it.