Can we have a rational discussion about guns and why the typical arguments for gun control and its implementation won't work?

[Dude#1279435]

Stop with claiming statistics that are wrong. Your sounding like Trump. Yes your not a gun guy and it shows with your lack of knowledge and even understanding.

So tell me specifically where I'm wrong.

 

[Trell]

You may want to rephrase your comments as questions rather than statements. As with anything informed opinions are generally much more respected than uninformed.

You should try to follow that yourself.

 

[TankTop5]

.One of the reasons you should (and I don't usually like using the word 'should') talk to some gun owners is because the views of the ones who take their responsibility seriously will probably surprise you. People ho have been trained (or educated themselves) have seen the rules of firearm use- this is often referred to as Col. Jeff Cooper's Rules of Gun Safety:

- RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
- RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
- RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
- RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

Those seem to be a way to avoid hitting someone or something unintentionally but I'll guess you won't infer that.

safetyrules

is

I recently transported a guy to the doctor who had accidentally shot himself for the second time loosing a finger this time. ER Doc put him on a 72 hour psychiatric hold so there are some mechanisms in place but I would like to see them more universally implemented. A situation like this should be followed up with a court date to determine mental stability. Luckily this guy told me he was selling his guns as this hobby just not be for him but unfortunately many are too stupid to come to that conclusion on their own and need a little help.

 

[highfigh]

Yep, they like their excesses. A modified AK is bring the military into the civilian. Eh eh. Can't let you have the real thing. Same with bump stocks. Somewhere between a semi and full I'm guessing. Trying to push the boundaries. In that regard I can actually agree with SC decision. They were taking the definition of a FA and said a bump stock doesn't meet the definition. It's trying to get closer though.

Car owners often like to customize- it makes that car more to their liking. People who play some instruments customize them, too- either doing it for themselves, paying someone or buying a custom model. Changing external/cosmetic gun parts does nothing to make it more dangerous.

Again, you're guessing when the facts are easily available. FA means the weapon has a setting that allows firing for as long as the trigger is pressed while a bump stock causes the weapon to move forward after the shot, which releases the pressure on the trigger, allowing it to reset but it's still firing once for every trigger pull. A FA rifle has settings for Manual, Semi-automatic and Fully automatic and those are more heavily regulated.

 

[highfigh]

I recently transported a guy to the doctor who had accidentally shot himself for the second time loosing a finger this time. ER Doc put him on a 72 hour psychiatric hold so there are some mechanisms in place but I would like to see them more universally implemented. A situation like this should be followed up with a court date to determine mental stability. Luckily this guy told me he was selling his guns as this hobby just not be for him but unfortunately many are too stupid to come to that conclusion on their own and need a little help.

I saw a video with a guy trying to show his quick draw (in)ability. He shot himself in the thigh.

Anyone who shows a gun and handles it while it's loaded AND the muzzle is pointed at any part of a person, whether himself or another, needs to learn some hard lessons. The guy you transported didn't learn.

 

[Dude#1279435]

And if you didn't check the stats, you really need to- would you accept your arguments as a parent or teacher? I hope not. You inferred that I meant shotgun buyers don't need a BC and you definitely missed the part where we posted that they do. Deal with facts, not just opinions and assumptions.

The mentally ill can't be separate from this problem because they kill an incredible number of people and if you refuse to read the data, you're just acting like an Ostrich with its head in the sand. Maybe offering some kind of way to stop the mentally ill from getting guns would be better than just posting the eye roll emoji. The stigma needs to end.

One of the reasons you should (and I don't usually like using the word 'should') talk to some gun owners is because the views of the ones who take their responsibility seriously will probably surprise you. People ho have been trained (or educated themselves) have seen the rules of firearm use- this is often referred to as Col. Jeff Cooper's Rules of Gun Safety:

- RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
- RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
- RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
- RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

Those seem to be a way to avoid hitting someone or something unintentionally but I'll guess you won't infer that.

safetyrules

So by bring up homicide rates are low with shotguns, your point was what?

The rules on handling a gun I already know, and it's pretty well common knowledge.

Of course the primary problem is the mentally ill, but as if there are no gun owners out there who like their excesses, well that's why there are limitations on firepower.

 

[highfigh]

So tell me specifically where I'm wrong.

You're wrong by using interpretations that don't involve definitions and other facts. This information is all very easy to find- if you want to see data on the 'of guns used in homicides', type that in the search bar. If you want to find 'age of shooting victims', 'age of killers using guns', 'pistols vs shotguns used for homicide' or 'types of guns used for homicide', type that.

Don't forget to look into domestic violence, though- that's a bad one and it often refers to 'homicide by intimate partner'.

 

[highfigh]

So by bring up homicide rates are low with shotguns, your point was what?

The rules on handling a gun I already know, and it's pretty well common knowledge.

Of course the primary problem is the mentally ill, but as if there are no gun owners out there who like their excesses, well that's why there are limitations on firepower.

You commented about shotguns, I provided data and you don't seem to have checked it.

If these rules are common knowledge, why do so many people die from accidental shots?

How many times do I and others need to write about people who have an unhealthy obsession with guns? I have given specific examples, but you must have ignored those.

The limitations on firepower are in place because people are stupid, reactive and can't control their violent tendencies they need to be prevented from getting guns. This is the reason I have posted so many times that the background check needs to be more thorough. This is also the reason a three day wait was imposed on gun purchases- it was intended to prevent impulse killings, but some states ended the waiting period and as we can see from news reports, that waiting period doesn't apply to criminals, anyone who goes off the deep end in a home where someone owns guns and anyone who operates outside of the laws.

 

[Dude#1279435]

Car owners often like to customize- it makes that car more to their liking. People who play some instruments customize them, too- either doing it for themselves, paying someone or buying a custom model. Changing external/cosmetic gun parts does nothing to make it more dangerous.

Again, you're guessing when the facts are easily available. FA means the weapon has a setting that allows firing for as long as the trigger is pressed while a bump stock causes the weapon to move forward after the shot, which releases the pressure on the trigger, allowing it to reset but it's still firing once for every trigger pull. A FA rifle has settings for Manual, Semi-automatic and Fully automatic and those are more heavily regulated.

Customizing = pushing the boundaries. Just like with guns. Bigger, badder, louder, faster. Somehow customizing exists everywhere, except with guns. It's trying to push the boundaries within the legal parameters. Otherwise there would be FA's. Bump stock - attempt to shoot out faster and/more. Otherwise what's the point of having it in the first place? None. Hence why guns are reg'd. From the gun owners too.

 

[Dude#1279435]

The limitations on firepower are in place because people are stupid, reactive and can't control their violent tendencies the-y need to be prevented from getting guns. This is the reason I have posted so many times that the background check needs to be more thorough. This is also the reason a three day wait was imposed on gun purchases- it was intended to prevent impulse killings, but some states ended the waiting period and as we can see from news reports, that waiting period doesn't apply to criminals, anyone who goes off the deep end in a home where someone owns guns and anyone who operates outside of the laws.

Limitations of firepower cause we don't want someone killing 50 people. Limitations on gun owner excesses like owning a machine gun. Even in private use. Cause their in circulation now. And could end up in the wrong hands eventually. Or simply because the gun owner considers owning a machine gun "fun."

 

[highfigh]

Customizing = pushing the boundaries. Just like with guns. Bigger, badder, louder, faster. Somehow customizing exists everywhere, except with guns. It's trying to push the boundaries within the legal parameters. Otherwise there would be FA's. Bump stock - attempt to shoot out faster and/more. Otherwise what's the point of having it in the first place? None. Hence why guns are reg'd. From the gun owners too.

Why should you be allowed to decide if people can do something? You don't get to control 334 million peoples' actions and interests and neither do I.

As long as the parameters are legal and the results don't harm anyone on their own, the problem isn't with the things, it's people who cause the problems.

If someone finds a way to sharpen knives better than anyone in human history, should they be denied the opportunity? As long as they aren't promoting violence, I think not but since you want gun control, look at the rest of the World to see that they have big problems with knife attacks-

Outside the Americas, Knives Are Often the Weapon of Choice in Homicides

More than 130 people in Kunming, China, were injured when about ten men and women wielding knives began stabbing others at random

www.smithsonianmag.com

 

[highfigh]

Limitations of firepower cause we don't want someone killing 50 people. Limitations on gun owner excesses like owning a machine gun. Even in private use. Cause their in circulation now. And could end up in the wrong hands eventually. Or simply because the gun owner considers owning a machine gun "fun."

And what kind of people would want to kill 50+ people?

When was an actual machine gun used in a mass shooting?

 

[TankTop5]

And what kind of people would want to kill 50+ people?

When was an actual machine gun used in a mass shooting?

It does happen with illegally modified machine guns but it’s rare. I don’t think a bump stock has ever been used in a murder although one was present in the Las Vegas shooting it wasn’t used.

Everything I own is customized for personal taste but as you said none of it makes a firearm more or less deadly. I would like to see suppressors completely legalized and encouraged due to the fact they only make firearms hearing safe and it’s better for wildlife when used outdoors. Europe it’s mandatory in many places for hunting.

 

[cpp]

So tell me specifically where I'm wrong.

You said shotgun sales are declining, provide me a link.

 

[highfigh]

It does happen with illegally modified machine guns but it’s rare. I don’t think a bump stock has ever been used in a murder although one was present in the Las Vegas shooting it wasn’t used.

Everything I own is customized for personal taste but as you said none of it makes a firearm more or less deadly. I would like to see suppressors completely legalized and encouraged due to the fact they only make firearms hearing safe and it’s better for wildlife when used outdoors. Europe it’s mandatory in many places for hunting.

But Europe has different people- if more Americans behaved like Europeans, we wouldn't have the same problems.

EDIT- again, these mods are done illegally and they could be banned, but criminals won't care.

 

[mtrycrafts]

You said shotgun sales are declining, provide me a link.

shutgun sales declining? - Google Search

 

[TankTop5]

But Europe has different people- if more Americans behaved like Europeans, we wouldn't have the same problems.

True

 

[highfigh]

True

Freedoms are great, if people would exercise them responsibly.

 

[TankTop5]

Freedoms are great, if people would exercise them responsibly.

And that’s why I do not participate in any gun rights, organizations, or groups, I don’t want to be associated in any way shape or form with any fringe elements. My rights are my own personal rights and no one else needs to participate.

 

[cpp]

shutgun sales declining? - Google Search

The key info in that is that NOT all shotguns. Pumps are down, while O/U are up, I just bought a O/U a few weeks ago, and the dealer hard a hard time keeping some clay models in stock. . Of course doubles will always be low, regardless of when any data in a year is noted. I think like the article notes and thank you for providing a link, it notes gun dealers are getting smarter on what's selling vs what is not. .