Can we have a rational discussion about guns and why the typical arguments for gun control and its implementation won't work?

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Seriously, I have no life.
Ancestral lands, the land of your fathers ... from whence whiteness sprang forth from the earth ... go there. :D
Go anywhere on the planet and find pure-bred people. There aren't many and the ones you would find will have been isolated either by their choice, or by force.
 
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Seriously, I have no life.
It's just a leather 1907 Military Rifle Sling. Mine is made by Turner, 54 inch model. It is better than canvas M1 sling for competition, since it will stretch just enough for a shooter to settle in to natural point of aim with complete muscular relaxation. Turner also makes a synthetic version; but, it has ZERO stretch; meaning a less than completely relaxed position.
You missed the point of my comment- you don't use a high-end sling, to help you shoot better? (audio cable reference)
 
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Seriously, I have no life.
I like it here.

What's the point of taking a place over violently and then reconciling with the small segment of the indigenous population you didn't kill?

Somebody needs an explanation on how war works. Who knows, maybe it's me but I thought killing people and taking their stuff was the whole idea.
Guitar players who think they don't have enough gear refer to the need to add something to their sound as "MOAR!". It goes along with GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome). It worked the same with kings & queens when they wanted to expand their world and was often done by planting a flag, somewhere. They also sent priests to convert the people by force. I think Cheech & Chong did a bit on this and when the colonists saw what the indigenous people had, one of them (played by Cheech) said "Hey, corn! Now we can make tortillas!", complete with Hispanic pronunciation. Firesign Theater also did a sketch about colonists and at one point as a ship was leaving with some of the booty (not that kind!), a priest said "Oh, I almost forgot- Domini, domini, domini- you're all Catholic, now".
 
highfigh

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Seriously, I have no life.
No, just GO-NAD. Well, maybe you too. :D
Two of my ancestors left England during one of their Civil Wars, which coincided with one of their plague epidemics. I don't know much about her, but my maternal 10th GGF's father had died and it's possible that he decided "F this, I'm outta here". After seeing what was happening in England at the time, I'm surprised anyone survived. The rest of my ancestors came from Central Europe much later, so they had nothing to do with colonization.

I think Europe has done a fine job of repopulating post-WWII, so I don't know where people who might return would go.

What would you do about the people who have emigrated in the l last 100 years? Should they go back, too? How would THEY live without the things they wanted from their new homelands when they left places that had nothing?
 
A

aceinc

Audioholic
I don't want this to become a 'Democrat vs Republican' thing, I would like to see reasoned comments and responses without turning to insults.

I have mentioned that Milwaukee is an example of a badly-run city but even if the city leaders have the best of intentions behind them, some people don't care and will do what they want, when they want and they don't care if it's illegal.

This happened late Sunday evening and it's the kind of event that can occur when people who shouldn't have access to guns, do. If you listen, it sounds like automatic gunfire at times and those weapons are already heavily regulated/taxed and access is much more difficult than most other guns.


My thoughts on what will help to decrease needless gun deaths-

- More/better care for people with mental illness
- The courts need to prevent access to guns and remove guns from people who have made threats (see the link about the casino shootings at the bottom)
- The Courts need to grow a set and hold people with violent past when they're arrested for violent crimes
-People need to accept the fact that they know someone with mental illness and that care is needed- lose the stigma
- People who are afraid of guns need to realize that guns do nothing on their own and while the fear may be justified, these people shouldn't be in a position to make policy regarding them but could/should be part of the overall discussion.
-People need to stop getting attention when spewing information that's not accurate and they need to be corrected when they get that attention because it mis-informs others, often leading to a frenzied response.


None of this needs to happen- people have to stop resorting to violence as one of their first reactions to anger.
The answer to the question posed in the subject is simple;

NO.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
The answer to the question posed in the subject is simple;

NO.
While it has veered off a few times, we haven't had any name-calling and serious insults, so I think we can. The question was rhetorical, but I still want to see if we can come up with some decent measures to slow the death count from violence and using guns. So far, mental health, people raising their kids to be decent human beings and ending the practice of early release/no penalty for violent criminals have been proposed most often.

Care to add to the dialog?
 
A

aceinc

Audioholic
While it has veered off a few times, we haven't had any name-calling and serious insults, so I think we can. The question was rhetorical, but I still want to see if we can come up with some decent measures to slow the death count from violence and using guns. So far, mental health, people raising their kids to be decent human beings and ending the practice of early release/no penalty for violent criminals have been proposed most often.

Care to add to the dialog?
Sure.

For me it is simply about numbers. More guns more gun crimes. Reduce the number of guns reduce the number of gun crimes. I believe there are many examples around the world of ways to allow guns without the gun violence. Switzerland is one example.

I would support gun training before anyone is allowed to own a gun.

I would support mandatory liability insurance for gun owners. Proof of insurance would be carried whenever the gun is carried.

I would support a positive chain of custody for registration of all firearms, so that if a gun is used in a crime it can be easily traced to the last legal owner. If they hadn't report it being stolen, they would have a financial liability for damage created by the firearm. This would mean all sales would be registered with the state.

I would support all gun sales be processed by a registered gun dealer or a police department. The gun & money would be held by the dealer or PD until a background check was run on both the buyer and the gun, then the money would be given to the seller and the gun would be given to the buyer.

Now let the hating begin.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Sure.

For me it is simply about numbers. More guns more gun crimes. Reduce the number of guns reduce the number of gun crimes. I believe there are many examples around the world of ways to allow guns without the gun violence. Switzerland is one example.

I would support gun training before anyone is allowed to own a gun.

I would support mandatory liability insurance for gun owners. Proof of insurance would be carried whenever the gun is carried.

I would support a positive chain of custody for registration of all firearms, so that if a gun is used in a crime it can be easily traced to the last legal owner. If they hadn't report it being stolen, they would have a financial liability for damage created by the firearm. This would mean all sales would be registered with the state.

I would support all gun sales be processed by a registered gun dealer or a police department. The gun & money would be held by the dealer or PD until a background check was run on both the buyer and the gun, then the money would be given to the seller and the gun would be given to the buyer.

Now let the hating begin.
Does that mean we would have fewer bad people if the guns were removed?

No, it doesn't. You're completely ignoring the people who commit the crimes and that will never work- if they can't have guns, I think some murders won't happen because the potential killers don't have the stomach to get bloody or the stones to do it at all, but many will find another way. Knives, hammers and pieces of wood are used frequently and cars are used to intentionally kill. For that matter, if you read about self-defense, a gun is often the best choice from a distance, but at close range, any hard object will do. These can be held or thrown (assuming the person has the ability to throw it hard enough and aim well).

Bad people will do bad things, with or without guns. THAT's the problem that I think needs solving. Imagine living without people thinking they need to attach others or to collect weapons for self-defense. We could get on with living some kind of peaceful life. Not trying to be all Care Bear or say we need to sit around singing Kumbaya, but we would get a lot more done, rather than try to solve crimes, spend time and money making our homes safer, etc.

I can only hope that many of the ones who would kill out of anger or stupidity (as opposed to self-defense) pick exactly the wrong person to attack and have their ass handed to them.

Imagine being able to live without worrying about safety of ourselves and families, making our homes safer, without the need for large police forces, the misery that comes from being attacked or losing family & friends, news reports about it, etc. Not trying to be all Care Bear or saying that we need to sit around singing Kumbaya, but I think people would be able to spend their time being productive, rather than cleaning up the messes caused by bad people.

I agree that people need training. Buying a gun and thinking life is a freaking movie or video game is costing too many lives.

Switzerland is a different country and the beliefs of the people are different from Americans- they have national goals (we used to), require military service and their population tends to be less concentrated- I believe that highly concentrated population increases the chance of bad interactions.

Mandatory insurance, licensing and regulation of sales are great, but some people will always try to do things without letting anyone know about it. Lying, cheating and stealing- some call it 'flying under the radar' but some people live to break the rules.
 
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A

aceinc

Audioholic
Does that mean we would have fewer bad people if the guns were removed?

No, it doesn't. You're completely ignoring the people who commit the crimes and that will never work- if they can't have guns, I think some murders won't happen because the potential killers don't have the stomach to get bloody or the stones to do it at all, but many will find another way. Knives, hammers and pieces of wood are used frequently and cars are used to intentionally kill. For that matter, if you read about self-defense, a gun is often the best choice from a distance, but at close range, any hard object will do. These can be held or thrown (assuming the person has the ability to throw it hard enough and aim well).

Bad people will do bad things, with or without guns. THAT's the problem that I think needs solving. Imagine living without people thinking they need to attach others or to collect weapons for self-defense. We could get on with living some kind of peaceful life. Not trying to be all Care Bear or say we need to sit around singing Kumbaya, but we would get a lot more done, rather than try to solve crimes, spend time and money making our homes safer, etc.

I can only hope that many of the ones who would kill out of anger or stupidity (as opposed to self-defense) pick exactly the wrong person to attack and have their ass handed to them.

Imagine being able to live without worrying about safety of ourselves and families, making our homes safer, without the need for large police forces, the misery that comes from being attacked or losing family & friends, news reports about it, etc. Not trying to be all Care Bear or saying that we need to sit around singing Kumbaya, but I think people would be able to spend their time being productive, rather than cleaning up the messes caused by bad people.
60% of gun deaths in 2019 were suicide are these bad people?

Suicide by means other than gun is statistically less lethal, so often people can get the help they need.

Domestic violence without guns is less lethal. Are angry family members bad people?

Road rage without guns is less lethal.

75% of homicides are by firearm. how many fewer homicides would there be if the assailant used a knife, baseball bat or car?

Accidental stabbings are not very prevalent, but accidental shootings are. 3% of deaths by firearms are accidental.

The problem isn't whether there will be more or less bad people, it is when people behave badly (which we all do) will their actions turn into death? Sometimes yes, but I posit the number of deaths would be far fewer. I posit the number of police homicides would be less because they have less to fear during a traffic stop or a domestic violence call.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
60% of gun deaths in 2019 were suicide are these bad people?

Suicide by means other than gun is statistically less lethal, so often people can get the help they need.

Domestic violence without guns is less lethal. Are angry family members bad people?

Road rage without guns is less lethal.

75% of homicides are by firearm. how many fewer homicides would there be if the assailant used a knife, baseball bat or car?

Accidental stabbings are not very prevalent, but accidental shootings are. 3% of deaths by firearms are accidental.

The problem isn't whether there will be more or less bad people, it is when people behave badly (which we all do) will their actions turn into death? Sometimes yes, but I posit the number of deaths would be far fewer. I posit the number of police homicides would be less because they have less to fear during a traffic stop or a domestic violence call.
The suicides are part of the mental health problem. There are accidents, too- many are caused by people who were negligent, stupid or the weapons were poorly handled, which goes back to the training issue. I used to hear about people who shot themselves while cleaning their gun- how is that even possible, unless it happened just from handling it badly? It can't be cleaned completely while loaded.

The domestic violence issue is very difficult- those situation escalate more quickly than any other kind other than, maybe, a hostage situation. More cops are killed or injured during DV calls than any other.

WRT less to fear during a traffic stop- not enough info is distributed about why people are pulled over, IMO. It's not just DWB, it's usually because a car doesn't have plates, the plates are expired, concealed, damaged or don't match the car- some patrol cars have a camera that automatically sends the plate numbers to the computer and checks for legal registration. Since it's in plain view, it's not an invasion of privacy. Once the car is flagged, they pull the person over. In some cases, it's just expired registration but if the driver or passenger has warrants or they feel it necessary to flee, it goes bad, in a hurry. Using the wrong plates is illegal and I think a lot of people know that just from watching TV or movies, but the excuses are gonna come. "I just bought the car", "someone took my plates", etc. Registration stickers are stolen frequently, too- that's the reason I think they should use some other means to check- it's too easy to peel them off and get past the fees. I understand why people with no money might do this- it's damned expensive to register a vehicle these days and there's no payment plan for this.

If a cop has a history of pulling people just because they don't like that group, the cop needs to be removed from that job. I don't think counceling will work. I have read about people whose thinking WRT race has completely changed, but it took a long time, or some kind of transformative event.

Using 'homicide' often implies that the killing is planned when a cop is involved.

Getting back to the DV issue- a lot of people die because someone who was supposed to stay away from the other party came back- whether they intended to kill someone depends on them, but it happens a lot. It has happened several times just in the last two weeks and it can also be a case of "If I can't have them, nobody else will". People are also losing it after being fired, too- that's a common cause.

The stats have shown for a long time- people who kill or are killed frequently knew the killer or victim and either or both parties have a history of contact with law enforcement that doesn't involve waving as they go by.

Using logic, fewer deaths would result if fewer guns were available, but we still need to look at who's killing whom. If legal gun owners aren't doing it, we need to look at who is, why, how they acquire the guns and who is supplying them and that's the hard part because people who want to conceal their actions can do it pretty easily- they just limit the number of people who know about it.
 
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aceinc

Audioholic
The suicides are part of the mental health problem. There are accidents, too- many are caused by people who were negligent, stupid or the weapons were poorly handled, which goes back to the training issue. I used to hear about people who shot themselves while cleaning their gun- how is that even possible, unless it happened just from handling it badly? It can't be cleaned completely while loaded.

The domestic violence issue is very difficult- those situation escalate more quickly than any other kind other than, maybe, a hostage situation. More cops are killed or injured during DV calls than any other.

WRT less to fear during a traffic stop- not enough info is distributed about why people are pulled over, IMO. It's not just DWB, it's usually because a car doesn't have plates, the plates are expired, concealed, damaged or don't match the car- some patrol cars have a camera that automatically sends the plate numbers to the computer and checks for legal registration. Since it's in plain view, it's not an invasion of privacy. Once the car is flagged, they pull the person over. In some cases, it's just expired registration but if the driver or passenger has warrants or they feel it necessary to flee, it goes bad, in a hurry. Using the wrong plates is illegal and I think a lot of people know that just from watching TV or movies, but the excuses are gonna come. "I just bought the car", "someone took my plates", etc. Registration stickers are stolen frequently, too- that's the reason I think they should use some other means to check- it's too easy to peel them off and get past the fees. I understand why people with no money might do this- it's damned expensive to register a vehicle these days and there's no payment plan for this.

If a cop has a history of pulling people just because they don't like that group, the cop needs to be removed from that job. I don't think counceling will work. I have read about people whose thinking WRT race has completely changed, but it took a long time, or some kind of transformative event.

Using 'homicide' often implies that the killing is planned when a cop is involved.

Getting back to the DV issue- a lot of people die because someone who was supposed to stay away from the other party came back- whether they intended to kill someone depends on them, but it happens a lot. It has happened several times just in the last two weeks and it can also be a case of "If I can't have them, nobody else will". People are also losing it after being fired, too- that's a common cause.

The stats have shown for a long time- people who kill or are killed frequently knew the killer or victim and either or both parties have a history of contact with law enforcement that doesn't involve waving as they go by.

Using logic, fewer deaths would result if fewer guns were available, but we still need to look at who's killing whom. If legal gun owners aren't doing it, we need to look at who is, why, how they acquire the guns and who is supplying them and that's the hard part because people who want to conceal their actions can do it pretty easily- they just limit the number of people who know about it.
Never said to remove guns. Just treat them like with the same caution we treat cars.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Never said to remove guns. Just treat them like with the same caution we treat cars.
They're NOT the same threat- while neither will do any harm without an operator, a gun can kill from hundreds or thousands of feet from the user. That's why they were invented but the way people are spraying lead just because someone 'dissed' them or because they can't manage their anger is a problem. Anger management is a huge part of the murder rate- they overreact and before they know it, people are dead & wounded.

If someone drives illegally or is in illegal possession of a gun, they're penalized but just driving or possessing a gun don't always harm anyone. When they do, the punishment should fit the crime and in too many cases, guilty people are getting off easy.
 
A

aceinc

Audioholic
They're NOT the same threat- while neither will do any harm without an operator, a gun can kill from hundreds or thousands of feet from the user. That's why they were invented but the way people are spraying lead just because someone 'dissed' them or because they can't manage their anger is a problem. Anger management is a huge part of the murder rate- they overreact and before they know it, people are dead & wounded.

If someone drives illegally or is in illegal possession of a gun, they're penalized but just driving or possessing a gun don't always harm anyone. When they do, the punishment should fit the crime and in too many cases, guilty people are getting off easy.
You need to maintain insurance and have training to drive a car which, as you say, was not designed to kill. Why should we not require at least the same rules for a device which is/was designed to kill?

If keeping guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them, "bad guys," is a goal, why shouldn't at least the same rules of ownership that we have for vehicles not apply to guns? Since vehicles are large it is easy to slap an identifier on them like a license plate on cars or registration number on boats. One can't see a gun registration from 50' away and check a database to see if it is being legally operated, so more positive controls need to be put in place to handle the transfer of ownership. A police officer should be allowed to ask you for proof of ownership and insurance on any gun they see you with, issue you a citation and impound the gun pending a hearing, if you can't provide them.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
You need to maintain insurance and have training to drive a car which, as you say, was not designed to kill. Why should we not require at least the same rules for a device which is/was designed to kill?

If keeping guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them, "bad guys," is a goal, why shouldn't at least the same rules of ownership that we have for vehicles not apply to guns? Since vehicles are large it is easy to slap an identifier on them like a license plate on cars or registration number on boats. One can't see a gun registration from 50' away and check a database to see if it is being legally operated, so more positive controls need to be put in place to handle the transfer of ownership. A police officer should be allowed to ask you for proof of ownership and insurance on any gun they see you with, issue you a citation and impound the gun pending a hearing, if you can't provide them.
How about an rfid chip LEO could access but can't be tampered with?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
You need to maintain insurance and have training to drive a car which, as you say, was not designed to kill. Why should we not require at least the same rules for a device which is/was designed to kill?

If keeping guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them, "bad guys," is a goal, why shouldn't at least the same rules of ownership that we have for vehicles not apply to guns? Since vehicles are large it is easy to slap an identifier on them like a license plate on cars or registration number on boats. One can't see a gun registration from 50' away and check a database to see if it is being legally operated, so more positive controls need to be put in place to handle the transfer of ownership. A police officer should be allowed to ask you for proof of ownership and insurance on any gun they see you with, issue you a citation and impound the gun pending a hearing, if you can't provide them.
You might want to put a hold on thinking driver training will continue to be needed-


I posted an arrticle about this on FB with the caption "What's the worst that could happen?". Hey- I had already posted that Wisconsin does a lot of stupid crap, right?

We can make all kinds of rules, but some just refuse to play along.

Your last comment about search & seizure- any halfway decent lawyer would get that tossed because random searches are unconstitutional unless some kind of blanket warrant is issued. Also, the cop(s) would need to see the gun- since many fit in a pocket, that's going to be difficult.

So, back to the stupid in Milwaukee- yesterday alone, 7 shot, 4 dead- the dead were all women. And a few days ago, a gun was left unattended and this time, a TWO YEAR OLD shot himself.
 
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highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
How about an rfid chip LEO could access but can't be tampered with?
Those might need to be on the outside of the gun because the metal may attenuate the signal.

Hasn't that been tested and found to be unconstitutional as an unwarranted search?

Imagine trying to decide who to go after when a cop in a crowded area sees that 150 guns are nearby with most of them moving......
 
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